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The Forum > Article Comments > Serpents in the classrooms > Comments

Serpents in the classrooms : Comments

By Hugh Wilson, published 9/10/2008

School chaplains, populist politics and the demise of ‘education’ in Queensland schools.

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While I would argue with the author about the worth of exclusively secular education (nothing is value free) he has a point about the amateur fashion in which school chaplains have been given places in schools. We take special care to train school teachers in their areas of expertise but in the case of chaplains any person with a religious axe to grind seems adequate to the task. I am in favour of chaplains in schools as long as they are properly trained. This would mean at least a three your course in a mainstream theological school preferably run in one of our established universities. The problem is that in our mistaken idea that there is a separation between church and state in Australia it is often the case that these schools do not exist in our universities. Where then can we train the chaplains? The writer is quite right to be alarmed by the influx of religious enthusiasts into schools and with government funding.

Peter Sellick
Posted by Sells, Thursday, 9 October 2008 10:09:22 AM
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Hugh might have a point if the Secular system could point to any successes in their failed humanistic systems. The schools are full of bullies who have never had a smack in their life and teachers have been reduced to child minders in many areas.

I have heard some who even opposed chaplains on the same discriminating and god hating basis as Hugh has done ending up eating humble pie as many mentors and chaplains have shown the compassion and love not able to be offered by anyone else.

I would guess Hugh would feel more comfortable with Bill Henson prowling the school yards looking for kids to photograph nude than he would to see some decent values taught to the children. It must irk Hugh to see the fruit of these values where churches like Hillsong have thousands of young professionals (men and women) successful in life, worshiping Jesus and probably doing more to help people than most.

THe worst thing that could happen for our kids is for the schools to become even more secular with more and dogmas being pushed on to our kids. Face it Hugh the experiment has failed miserably. Thank God Mr Howard and others could see that Securalism has proven a total flop producing a valueless society. Hopefully the chaplains can do their bit to rescue some of these kids from the fruit of secularism (immorality, drug culture, divorce culture, homosexual culture etc etc)
Posted by runner, Thursday, 9 October 2008 10:37:32 AM
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Some would say that religious education is a contradiction in terms, and the recent events in the US over creationism and attempts to ban the teaching of evolution would confirm this.
At the very least, it needs to be kept clear that matters of faith and dogma which are not subject to critical thought and test are not the business of schools. For parents who actively want religion for their children, separate religious instruction by visiting ministers, as was done in the past, should be available, but they should have no contact with other students. I simply don't want my children brainwashed by the fear mongering that most religion ends up pushing.
The study of values is absolutely crucial in education, and is a well established practice which needs to be promoted more. With all due respect to the church, ministers of religion are unlikely to know anything about how to engage students with thinking about values - the boring and unproductive approaches of the past are not called 'preaching' by accident.
If pastoral care is the aim, this is much better done by qualified social workers and psychologists than by unqualified zealots, however well intentioned.
Congratulations to 'the Fourth R' for uncovering this appalling lack of responsibility on the part of the education authorities.
Posted by Godo, Thursday, 9 October 2008 11:05:46 AM
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This article describes a situation that is an enormous cause for concern.
There is no greater crime that the deliberate and on-going corruption of children - a crime that is constantly being perpetrated by the many religious institutions in Australia, with full financial taxpayer funded support provided by a relatively new federal government. The pernicious rubbish disguised as 'religion' - specifically (in this country at least) the nonsensical Abrahamic god variety - has been the favoured vehicle for political ascendency since at least the fifties when the country was split over the state aid issue. When a government - a government that was elected largely as a reaction to the pandering and brutal tactics of the Howard cohort of bible bashers - continues to fund the deliberate corruption of our children via the destruction of the once proud state school systems, and has the audacity to to use public funds to impose a never-ending stream of priests, parsons, pastors, nuns, religiously motivated counsellors, etc. etc. upon our defenseless children - despair seems inevitable. Keep up the good work, Fourth R, - if you can! Maintain the rage!

PS
I heartily recommend concerned parents and citizens read 'The Purple Economy', by Max Wallace. Mr Wallace has exposed the depth to which religion has, directly and indirectly, invaded our taxation system and achieved on-going massive direct and indirect funding for their continuous self-aggrandising agenda of imposing nonsensical mind destroying rubbish upon the community at large.
I have never met Mr Wallace and I have no financial interest the sales of his book - however it makes better reading than that loose leaf folio of assorted fairy tales, imaginary self-serving history, and chronicled sadistic brutality commonly known by its proponents as 'The Holy(?) bible.
Posted by GYM-FISH, Thursday, 9 October 2008 11:07:15 AM
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An excellent and timely article that exposes the sheer hypocrisy of the insidious insertion of unqualified, overwhelmingly Christian "chaplains" into Queensland State schools. As a parent of a child who attends one of these schools, I have been strongly critical of this ideological program since its inception.

Yes, school students need to have someone to whom they can go for counselling and guidance, but these should be properly qualified counsellors rather than untrained religious evangelists whose purpose is to indoctrinate vulnerable kids into their anachronistic beliefs.

Of course fundamentalist nutters like runner approve of this appalling waste of taxpayers' money, while simultaneously foaming at the mouth about something as trivial as the media beat-up about Bill Henson's artworks depicting children.

Well done, Hugh Wilson and The Fourth R - keep up the good work!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 9 October 2008 11:58:02 AM
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The younglings here in Indo only get 2hrs per day sub standard education. I myself think that kids shld only be taught comparative religion period.

In the indo constitution, the guvment are supposed to pay a minumum % from GDP towards education. The jawa pos here has been reporting for some time that they remain in open defiance of this. Remember, they harvest at international $ rate and pay out at 3rd world rate.The rich here are filthy rich.

The conspiracy theorists tell me that south jakarta has no interest in educating the 40+ million people who live on sub $5 per, as an educated populace wld very likely vote out the war criminals, human rights violaters and corruption cronies.

Amien Rais's political people speak openly now about the issue of not even a third of the aceh aid money arriving for the victims. I have a mate on an AUS/N.America AID steering committee here. Same story. Not even 30% of the budget arrived and the families still can't afford materials and the teachers aren't being paid. Why is canberra going along with this? A multi purpose exercise one wld assume eh auntie?

Indo has "foreign capital" handling rules u c. Its just a rubber stamping, hand balling exercise and they clip the seed pool at every touch.

The sister geological associations for the fab new finds in South Australia are in Kalimantan and everyone wants a piece of the action. .. well .. I wonder if these things are connected in any inappropriate way?

Just have to check out Mr ALP Wudd's benefactors list I suppose, amongst other things, and no surprises for guessing that if u don't donate to the jakarta stamp man, u don't get a guernsey. Corruption seems to be a stupid, lazy man's business.

As the jews say never again, so do the majority muslim indos.

!Merdeka! !Merdeka! !Merdeka! atau mati.
(Independence, Independence, Independence or die)

I shld like to see another paper from Carmy, but instead of forgetfulness at times of trial, perhaps a paper on how the abused become the abusers.
Posted by DreamOn, Friday, 10 October 2008 8:34:44 AM
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Oh dear, religion and politics. Cricket anyone?
Must be done though, so cheers to Hugh.
I hope runner's kids smack him when they're big enough. No I don't, but dude, get out of the fifties and perhaps read a modern psych manual or two. (I'd best refresh myself considering my delivery method there)
School education is about learning to get a job. Parenting is, ideally, about educating your child about living/life.
Would anyone object to bhuddist chaplains. Pity they wouldn't touch it due to all their high falootin' 'airy fairy ethics an' morals.
Krudd and Co's response to Mr Henson was frightening (but that's what Henson wanted). Dare I mention Victoria's anti-abortionists positive and complimentary statements for the negative?
Choice, you bet. Informed choice? Bugger me, it's almost the 21st century in our parliaments.
Informed choice...Education promotes understanding. Understanding promotes respect, etc, etc!
Turnbull, the first Catholic Lib leader. Wow.
ALP and Catholicism used to go hand in hand. The more things change.... Keating moved God further away, yet he/she/it/they/nothing's coming back.
Even Nihilism/Agnosticism is a religious debate, but that's for parents, kids and whoever, not public schools.
Advance Australia Fair, not God Save The Queen.
Rotten John could never attack Kruddies beliefs there. Might've done himself a harm.
I diasgree with Hillsingers but I'll fight to the death to let them sing, just not in my/our public schools... Would Harbingers, oops, Hillsongers, object to a multifaith policy I wonder?
So many points, 350 words to elucidate...
Go get 'em Hughie.
Posted by CarlStruth, Saturday, 11 October 2008 8:55:07 AM
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Dear Gym fish....this:

"however it makes better reading than that loose leaf folio of assorted fairy tales, imaginary self-serving history, and chronicled sadistic brutality commonly known by its proponents as 'The Holy(?) bible."

... is called "Religious vilification" and while I welcome your opinion, I'd prefer that it be based on fact rather than hysteria.

Please be advised that to say such things as you did IS Illegal and you can be dragged before a Victorian court for doing so.. no matter which state ur in.

Please (in your own interests) limit your comments on the Bible to "I don't believe it, It's not my thing, I reject it's claim on my life, and the such like. You over stepped the mark wildly with your comments and I refer you to the Victorian consolidated legislation

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rarta2001265/

Please pay special attention to section 8

Don't be surprised if someone come's a knocking on your door some day soon. It might be the police.

If you wish to discuss the Bible, you can do so in a much less vilifying manner, and you can place facts on the table, and we can discuss those facts.. some of those facts might include reference to the elimination of a people by the order of God.. I don't mind discussing that, but I take a very dim view of the tone of your post -seriously.

In fact.. I feel an apology to all who hold the Bible dear is due.

I await.

P.S. again..in your own interests.. don't take the 'screw you' approach.. it might have a negative outcome.
Posted by Polycarp, Saturday, 11 October 2008 11:37:06 AM
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Oh come on, Porky. You seem to spend half your life vilifying Islam and Muslims. Are you aware of the saying about people who live in glass houses not throwing stones?

GYM-FISH, as you're undoubtedly aware, Porkycrap's bleating amounts to so much hot air - the only thing unclear is which end it comes from.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 11 October 2008 2:13:41 PM
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Excellent article, Hugh, and all power to the Fourth R!

Some great posts too, Godo, GYM-FISH and CJ.

I endorse your summations on both The Purple Economy and the bible, GYM-FISH, and wouldn't lose too much sleep if I were you over the possibility of the police knocking on your door any time soon!

I agree with CJ, Porky, you are the last person to be making accusations about racial and religious vilification. If any of us could be bothered trawling through your posts, it certainly wouldn't be hard to find plenty such examples penned by your good self. I'd pull my head in if I were you. Besides, it probably wouldn't occur to any of us to rail against the good book in the first place, if it weren't for the fact that we're all sick to death of having it quoted at us and rammed down our throats by the likes of you.

The public primary school at which I work, with a student population of less than 400, has a born-again principal and two born-again chaplains. One of the chaplains teaches religious education classes and amazingly the principal did too when he first arrived, until parents objected. The chaplain teaches creationism. He takes whole school assemblies at Easter and Christmas and preaches the respective fictions of christ on the cross and christ in the manger with equal gusto.

At the same time, most of the teachers are teaching large classes in old and poorly equipped buildings. They are teaching an overcrowded curriculum and yet lose a whole session of teaching time every week to religious education. As they struggle to deliver good educational outcomes, I wonder how many teachers are aware of the many millions of taxpayer dollars being poured into funding chaplaincy in schools. Next to parents, it is teachers who are with students the most and are best equipped to provide a listening ear and a word of encouragement when they observe them struggling. Smaller classes would better enable them to take on this role and lessen the need for bringing in outsiders like chaplains.
Posted by Bronwyn, Sunday, 12 October 2008 1:22:21 AM
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Bronwyn what a nightmare.

When my one of my children attended a public Primary School in the late 90s the school introduced 'religous classes' even before Howard's ill thought out Chaplaincy program. Those who opted out of the religious classes were told their children would be provided with other activities.

Unbelievably the other activities involved the children sitting just outside the religious instruction classroom with some colouring-in. Every word could be heard and the children were bored. Other activities indeed! The two instrucutors were a husband and wife team who had dabbled in Sunday School. I am sure they were well-intentioned but the point is their presence was inappropriate.

Remember this is a secular public school. With parents in our area crying out for more funding for speech therapy, additional help for students with learning difficulties etc the government chooses indoctrination as a priority.

Support and counselling for students is already provided in the form of trained school counsellors who have established links with external support networks and groups. Their sole purpose is to counsel, advise and provide support. There is no hidden agenda.

This is not to argue that Chaplains are not caring and supportive but that to include a religious role in a secular public school is short sighted and goes against all principles of multi-culturalism, secularism and democracy (the right to choose).
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 12 October 2008 10:38:19 AM
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Bibles belong in Churches as do preachers: not in schools. Comparative religion maybe OK, but religious "chaplains" preaching the unbelievable and illogical fallacies and fantasies of christian faith? you must be kidding. "Biblical studies for children: lessons on primitive indocrination techniques" would be a good subject synopsis.
Posted by sillyfilly, Monday, 13 October 2008 10:33:54 AM
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It may be different in Queensland, Hugh Wilson, but in most States, the Education Acts providing for public education describe Government education as 'secular', but right from the beginning 'religious instruction' was written into the Acts. In practical terms, 'secular' meant 'controlled and funded by the Government', and not by the churches.

It may be different in Queensland, but in other States, Sells, the chaplains are tertiary-trained. In the State where Sells lives, for example (WA), over 95% of the chaplains have a degree (some in nursing, some in theology, and some in teaching) and receive ongoing in-service training. Their job descriptions reflect a sensitivity to their context - public schools - and their role is pastoral care with a coherent base.

It may be different in Queensland, but it is important to hold chaplains accountable if their behaviour is inappropriate for public schools, but it it also important for criticism to be based on facts, not simply ideology.

There has been religious instruction in public schools for more than a century, and there have been chaplains in Victoria since the 1950s, so these activities are not new. If chaplains were serpents, then their poison would surely be evident by now, yet school communities have welcomed the work they do.

In a way that social workers and psychologists cannot, school chaplains are able to be proactive in building students' resilience, encouraging them to develop a healthy world-view that fits each student (not necessarily Christian), to help schools prevent suicides, and to provide vital support for over-worked teachers.

It may be different in Queensland, but in most States school communities and the public can see the difference between fact and ideology and argue each separately.
Posted by Ted, Monday, 13 October 2008 1:44:02 PM
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Ted.. it is 'different' in Queensland.. where chaplains require no qualification other than a "I haven't offended or haven't been caught yet" 'blue card' criminal check (known in some circles as a 'pedo-pass'). They are also required to become sworn evangelists to get the gig. The vast majority of Queensland chaplains are Charismatic/Pentecostal/Evangelical/Fundamentalist/Reconstructionist extremists. It's all here:
http://www.thefourthr.info

And Ted.. it is 'different' in Queensland where in 1910 the word 'secular' was deleted from the State's education act to allow Ed Qld staff teachers to give Bible lessons to students in school hours as part of the curriculum. As far as we know, nothing resembling this archaic ritual occurs anywhere else within the 'developed' world.

http://education.qld.gov.au/studentservices/inclusive/religion/ri/faqs/biblelessons.html
http://education.qld.gov.au/studentservices/inclusive/religion/ri/faqs/docs/bible_lessons.pdf

Freed for almost a century from the constraints of presenting secular-only content, Ed Qld teachers can, and do, 'teach' whatever they fancy, including the dreaded intelligent? design.

Please download the excellent soon-to-begin 'Back in The Act' campaign kit here:
http://www.thefourthr.info/PDFs/EQ_law_1875-2008.pdf

Yep Ted, I guess if you consider that the human rights of the entire Queensland State school student population is in advanced stages of meltdown, we can safely conclude that it IS different in Queensland.

Oh, and polycarp, please have a gander at The Fourth R Neo-Pantheistic battle hymn.. "Why Don't Bees Go to Heaven?"
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FOHPQusSc5Q

That one should have your Calgary cavalry of thought-police knocking the door down within the hour!

Meanwhile, prepare for the (first) coming of the BITA campaign mantra between now and next year's Queensland State election:

"Let's get 'secular' back in The Act!"
Posted by DeepNortherner, Wednesday, 15 October 2008 6:02:50 PM
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Its an absolute outrage that chaplains are in public schools at all. State schools were meant to be a place that non religious families could thrive without discrimination or coercion. Religion is a choice and should remain as a choice. These chaplains have no accountability and a haven for pedophiliacs who do not need much training, have little accountability and can have close contact with children uncompromised in a position of "faith". The potential for grooming and lack of screening is great. They have no supervision nor are they responsible for the damage they do.
Posted by Anonymum, Wednesday, 22 October 2008 7:43:09 PM
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Dear Anonymum
Some facts may allay your concerns.
1. State schools are providers of universal education. They are not just for the "non-religious". In my state for example, over 50% of Catholic kids go to state schools. And isn't this a great thing? It prevents our nation from being sectarian. Kids from "religious" families at state schools are also entitled to "thrive without discrimination or coercion" and to mix with "non-religious" children to the benefit of both.
2. The Education Acts in most states specify that religious personnel may come into schools, and they lay out the conditions under which this can happen. This was part of the legislators' understanding of "secular", evidently different from the ideological definitions put forward by people posting to this thread.
2. Chaplains are accountable through individual contracts with their employing agency, through agreements negotiated with Education Departments, and now through contracts with the Federal Government. In W.A., for one, these contracts are reviewed at least annually.
3. Chaplains are supervised, usually with a work supervisor and a personal supervisor.
4. Of course, schools will attract people wanting to exploit children in whatever nasty way, not just paedophilia. Teachers and chaplains, at least in this state, undergo more rigorous checks than the "Working with Children" checks that other members of the community require.
5. Chaplains cannot be imposed on schools. School communities must choose to take on a Chaplain. The fact that there have been chaplains in government schools in Victoria for 60 years, in W.A. for 25 years, and in 10 or more years in other states, means that schools continue to ask for them. Schools like chaplains.
Posted by Ted, Thursday, 23 October 2008 11:40:33 AM
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Hugh Wilson makes a number of very good points. His point about the funding allocations; his point about the funding of the religious right; and his point about the teaching of gendered roles for girls and boys are all of great concern. Another recent article in OLO was on child abuse. I think the two articles are linked. We turn a blind eye to a form of abuse(I was a recipient) that is, in some ways, of greater concern than physical abuse. The body heals, but the mind can carry scars unto death. I refer to psychological abuse, especially the invisible hand of religion on the 'souls' of our young and vulnerable. It seems anything taught in the name of a 'loving God' is going to do nothing but good. When you indoctrinate girls and boys into a cultish system of ridgid roles, they don't just escape as one might the bars of a material prison, they spend their lives working through the affects. This is child abuse sanctioned, and indeed funded, by the state and federal governments.
Posted by a man da, Friday, 24 October 2008 1:36:58 PM
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