Passy,

"If labour is the source of value in the realm of production"

Yes, but Passy, it's not only workers who produce value. You even acknowledge this! Your whole argument falls apart on this point alone!

I noticed that you didn't respond to my point about there not being a viable socialist party in this country, and that shows that you're in a state of denial. You need to acknowledge that unless people are on board with Socialism, it's doomed to failure. At least with Capitalism, those who choose to push themselves further can do so. The situation that we have currently is that they are 'punished' with higher and higher tax rates, which helps those who can't/don't.

"Why is capitalism going to hell in a hand basket?"

LOL. It's not. We're having a long overdue correction. I'm looking forward to the state of the various markets in 5 years time - one dollar invested today will be worth many more.

I would, however, remind you that socialism has failed consistently over the last couple of decades in every country that has tried it. Even if it's not Socialism in the style you would like, it consistently fails.

This is getting silly now Passy. You've failed to convinced anyone of anything on these posts of yours. All that has happened is that you've been consistently beaten up. Take the hint, both of the lack of support on these threads and the lack of a major socialist party, that you're barking up the wrong tree.

BN

You are right. There is no mass revolutionary party in Australia. I am trying to build one, along with the other 250 members of Socialist Alternative. Today's very tiny minority can be tomorrow's majority. The point for the revolutionary Left is to patiently explain our democratic ideas and why capitalism is in crisis. Since our analysis does acknowledge the crisis ridden nature of capitalism (something inherent to the system) our ideas have the potential to reach a wider audience. You of course refuse to look reality in the face as the system collapses around you. Like Schumpeter you seem to be a fan of creative destruction - but at what cost?

I haven't been beaten up. No one has laid a punch on me. A few right wingers or neo-liberals have failed to understand let alone address what I am saying. Abuse is not rebuttal.

It's the crisis of profitability, stupid. That's a reference not to you BN, but a reminder to me, a la Clinton, that I need to keep making the point about the low profit rates in the developed world. No amount of bail outs is going to address that. It is likely the attacks on workers will soon increase markedly to drive down our living standards and restore profit rates. But it may be too little to save the system since the last twenty five years have basically been a re-distribution of wealth from labour to capital. There may be no blood left in the stone.

Passy

Your posts have remained courteous in spite of provocation. I too am concerned about the repercussions of the "bail-out" that it will fail to protect low income people and is not concerned with culpability of the banks, politicians and stock players.

You also present your case rationally and reasonably. The economic crisis has shown that huge monopolies just drag everyone else down when the balance of trade is exploited. I am all for the healthy type of competition and innovation that is achieved by small business - much easier to regulate and less room for exploitation.

"U.S. mortgage lenders, freed from regulatory oversight, were able to misleadingly market high-interest subprime loans to millions of American families. Those families, for their part, had little choice but to sign on the dotted line. In a deeply unequal United States, with workers taking home a record low share of the nation’s income, far fewer families could report enough income to qualify for a traditional mortgage.

In short, inequality cooked up the current Wall Street meltdown. Any serious attempt to end this meltdown — and prevent another — has to recognize inequality's role."

http://www.toomuchonline.org/articlenew2008/sept22a.html

Passy,

"Today's very tiny minority can be tomorrow's majority."

Have you noticed that across the world, the number of Nazi, Communist and Socialist parties diminishes as each year rolls on? Have you noticed that even the great Communist and Socialist communities are adopting (albeit slowly and with the pain that comes with change) free market ideals with only a few stragglers hanging on? Have you noticed that there aren't new Socialist societies springing up?

What does that tell you?

I'll remind you that Australia isn't going to be the socialist building ground that you want: Australians want to exclusively improve themselves - the evidence is everywhere. I'll remind you of credit card debt, McMansions and all the other things which are the anathema of what you're espousing.

"...the crisis ridden nature of capitalism..."

And the crisis riddled nature of every other system of government. No system of government or religion is crisis proof. You seem to think along the lines of the 'workers paradise', but that, in and of itself, is a fallacy. Man is not capable of paradise of any flavour.

Your already tiny minority is getting smaller and the world has moved on. So should you.

*No one has laid a punch on me.*

Passy, stop kidding yourself. If after 100 years of this stuff, you
have 250 people backing you, its time for a major rethink. A few
slogans repeated again and again, are not going to convince people.

*It's the crisis of profitability, stupid.*

Passy, if profitability was higher, the poor and others would pay more
for their consumer goods, their standard of living would drop.
The thing is, today machines do most of the production, lots of workers do little
but push a few buttons. Only around 10% of
the workforce is in manufacturing, the massive growth has been
in services.

Today there are industries employing alot of people, which we had
not dreamed of, 25 years ago. Think of the internet and all its
associated activity, think of mobile phones, etc. etc. Fact is
that most people don't want to stand on production lines, doing
boring work, so we have to import those on 457 visas, as in the
meat industry.

A bit of a slowdown in WA will actually be welcome, for things were
getting out of hand here. There were just too many developments,
too much growth, too much chaos because of it. When train drivers
earning 200'000$ a year go on strike, then things are perhaps too
healthy and its time for a reality check.

*And the crisis riddled nature of every other system of government.*

BN- exactly! There is no fairy land out there, we are human, mistakes
are made.

To come back to this statement

Passy “You don't grasp my arguments because they are outside your thinking and life experience.”

I do not know BN, never met him or Yabby or yourself.

I do not presume to determine what “life experiences” they may have endured or reveled in to bring them to the point where they express the values they hold.

Likewise, you do not know me nor the life experiences which helped formulate my views

but they included studying by kerosene lamp because of rolling blackouts when the UK miners, lead by the scumbag communists (Gorman and Scargill) decided they would hold the nation to ransom and do their best to bring down the democratically elected conservative government.

It is the style of “Socialists” to treat those with an alternative perception of "life" and the "experiences" it brings as if they had never had a thought in their lives and they are, thus, somehow lacking.

You laud a process which has been proven to lead to the worst forms of corruption and mass starvation.

You denigrate capitalism and belittle it with fraudulent claims to its shortcomings, re the billion people starving etc.

The misery and missed opportunity which comes from enforced socialist leveling reduces what could otherwise be a “life experience” to a mere existence.

All human advancement has come from the dedication of individuals to pursue their own personal goals and agendas, regardless of and sometime despite (socialist) governments.

Such individualism is discouraged in the system of socialist uniformity

and that is why capitalism works better than socialism, because it encourages the individual and rewards innovation and invention,

to the ultimate betterment of all.

Yabby “There is no fairy land out there, we are human, mistakes are made.”

And that is another strength of capitalism, no where to hide,

Share holders hold their executive to account.

Governments have years and heaps of opportunities to hide their mistakes and the tax payer / electorate is none the wiser.

Lenin and Stalin both did it, five year plan after five year plan.