George,
Willem Drees (Theology Dept.Leiden University, Netherlands) holds a view where the integrity, coherence, and completeness of reality as described by science certainly does not imply its self-sufficiency. A transcendent Creator is consistent with, though not required by, naturalism. He, along with Ayala , generally expound the conceptual revolution that Darwin completed: that everything in nature, including the origin of living organisms, can be accounted for as the result of natural processes governed by natural laws.

Naturalism rules out objective reference to divine action in the world and it offers an evolutionary account of how such ideas arose - rejected is a view of God as altering the laws of nature or as acting within the contingencies of nature since nature is complete and the integrity of nature affirmed. Naturalism renders their cognitive content “extremely unlikely” without claiming absolute proof. (i.e. under part of the definition of being scientific, it is “falsifiable”). Our human action is perhaps the ‘objective’ in relation to a Divine ‘subjectivity’ as we appear to bear this unique image.

Though their cognitive claims may need revision, religions confront and challenge us with ideals and values, offering a vision for a better world - this mystical function of Christianity can be complementary to its more prophetic, functional characteristics. Evolution has bequeathed us the capacity for imagination and thus for transcending any one particular perspective, regulative ideal or Bible - this can in turn lead us to the notion of divine transcendence. This is far from what one expects of the traditional, but I find it edifying when Francisco Ayala gives serious consideration to the importance of cultural and mental aspects in the evolutionary explanation of morality - which can go beyond our emotions. Sociobiology, for instance, undermines the claim that values originate in a supernatural source, people however are still free to choose from among competing values. The anthropic principle in communication with the theory of self-organized complexity, as revealed through evolutionary biology, certainly gives theology a rich resource.

I note that nobody has challenged the statements made by Fractelle. I tend to agree with them.

I would also have thought that all the good Christians out there would forgive us non-believers for our disbelief, rather than start to froth at the mouth in a rather unchristian way in their attempts to set us straight.

Instead,I suggest you take solace in the fact we stand to get knocked back from the pearly gates, spend our lives committing no end of sins, and will end up having a rather disappointing judgement day.

However, all said and done, I look look forward to these philosophical debates and thank all the contributors for providing so much entertainment!

Lucy Van Pelt: Aren't the clouds beautiful? They look like big balls of cotton. I could just lie here all day and watch them drift by. If you use your imagination, you can see lots of things in the cloud's formations. What do you think you see, Linus?

Linus Van Pelt: Well, those clouds to me look like the map of the British Honduras on the Caribbean.[points up]

Linus Van Pelt: That cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor. And that group of clouds over there[points]

Linus Van Pelt: gives me the impression of the Stoning of Stephen. I can see the Apostle Paul standing there to one side.

Lucy Van Pelt: Uh huh. That's very good. What do you see in the clouds, Charlie Brown?

Charlie Brown: Well... I was going to say I saw a duckie and a horsie but I changed my mind.

I suspect that religion is no more than misunderstood mythology - a personification of human hopes, fears and ideals.

When organised and controlled, it brings out the very best and very worst in us all.

crabsy: << You insist that “spiritual and other subjective dimensions of experience” are of a different order from rational-empirical cognition. >>

Yes, which is hardly the same as saying that subjective/spiritual experience should be "shunned", is it?

<< You thus assert that the subjective life must be treated as of less value than the objective >>

Well, yes - that is, if you want to understand the world outside the subjective self. By all means tell yourself stories about gods, spirits or whatever, but I'm certainly asserting that rationality and empiricism are far more explanatory when it comes to the material universe. Indeed, that's what much of the Enlightenment was about.

If we give equal weight to subjective/supernatural theories and knowledge with that derived from scentific method and inquiry, that would open the door to Creationism, Sharia law and other forms of hocus pocus. I accept that many people feel the need to believe in supernatural beings and the powers that they attribute to them, but there is no way that I agree that these beliefs should have equal salience to scientific knowledge.

Boazycrap: << Poor Pericles out there like a shag on a rock.. and his bedraggled cormorant friend CJ hanging his wings out to dry nearby... >>

Hardly. What I see are some intelligent Christians (and Boazy..) desperately trying to assert that their religious beliefs are somehow the equivalent of science, by using increasingly convoluted reasoning and argumentation.

It must be pretty tough for them, I guess.

Relda, it's not what is lost, but what is gained when one is freed from the shackles of Middle Eastern myths, legends and superstitions.

These religions were the original fascist and totalitarian regimes. If you don't believe what they believe, when you die you'll go to hell. In past times (for Christianity at least) they would even assist you to get there early.

Ratzinger is the great authoritarian role model. He got it from a long line of authoritarians that started with Paul of Tarsus.

An earlier post said that people need something to believe in. It's called your Self.

The world would be a better place if more people believed in their Self. In this country the Commonwealth Goverenment spends $150B in various welfare programs principally because people don't have sufficient belief in their Self to make their own way.

It's when Man dreamed up religion that things went haywire.

The gods of our imagination will always be crazy.