Who, may I ask - would believe the credibility of defrocked Parliamentarian, reformed alcoholic, common thief ? That he crashed a 2003 Liberal Xmas barbecue, ingratiated himself and was spotted sequestering 5 bottles of vino, not only brought humiliation to his Democrat colleagues, he indignantly swore, manhandled and abused Liberal Jeannie Ferris on the floor of Parliament for ratting on him ! Captured on camera, he at first denied, then profusely apologized. Drawing $ 127,000 base pay, and over $ 60,000 in electoral/travel/car allowances, and a Life Gold Pass, one wonders at the shenanigans our Pollies resort to, given half the chance.

The irreverent Democrats were decimated 2007 Elections, scoring an abysmal 1.88 % of the primary vote.

Andrew's pique center's on Aust Immigration debate - a festering sore JWH skillfully manipulated to win Office, twice. In the main, it appealed to the xenophobic, disfranchised and neo-conservatives who couldn't and still can't believe Asylum seekers are only seeking welfare payments, and an idyllic lifestyle in the Utopian Sun.

Bungles & Hiccups: there are 25,000 illegal workers and visitors on everyday visas living in the community. Oz Audit Office Report 07: 60,000 visa overstays; 21,500 non citizens on invalid visas. Actual fact, the bureaucrats haven't a clue how many have gone bush. So lackadaisical, inept they resorted to ABS for assistance to fudge figures.

Incidentally, the ABS's modus operandi envisages; ' statistical modeling; seasonally adjustments, mathematical probability, pyramid displacement etc. In essence, it's dart-board bull's eye science. AAO, the Nation's watchdog, in a damning report condemned the practice of: tip-offs, dob-a-stranger, crime stoppers etc initially hailed as a significant source of intelligence/policing being surreptitiously pigeonholed. So much for Border security, stranger danger, and multitude of anti-terrorism measures Howard supposedly implemented at great cost.

Bloopers under DIMIA's Amanda Vanstone's watch, include failures to identify dinky-di ex Qantas hostie Cornelia Rau, who was treated abominably at Baxter detention Gulag. Vivian Alverez Salon, deported to the Philippines and accidentally recognized by a visiting nun, and rightfully granted citizen status; Robert Jovick, deported to Belgrade although born in Footscray. Melbourne. Notorious medico

Mohamed Haneef, incarcerated. His good character pusillanimously maligned and made a scapegoat by Kevin Andrews and AFP Commissioner Mick Keelty. His reputation impugned, sacked by Qld Health, he voluntarily left the Country on his own accord. Two years after his trial-by-media AFP fictitiously blamed Scotland Yard for the bungle even though they had two experienced Officer's stationed in London at the time.Even now, they relentlessly scrutinise his past in India with a fine tooth-comb, and in the UK, to justify their shameless waste of taxpayer's funds, last estimated at $ 2.3 million. The systematic failures are flagitiously awesome. Tellingly, the debacle doesn't end there. Huge compensation payouts will rest like a albatross on the Nation's much vaunted surplus budget. Internationally, the monetary fallout is chickenfeed compared to incalculable harm to Aust's reputation of fair-mindedness and Christian charity.

Chris Evans has accomplished more in his short tenure then anything Vanstone/Andrews in 11 years of sloth and bloody-mindedness. Upgrading, closing detention centers on/offshore, injecting much needed funds into the ailing system. Fast tracking 13,500 refugee applications,granting 13,014 humanitarian visas. Working tirelessly with the Commonwealth Ombudsman, eliminating bureaucratic red tape, professional migrant agencies, ghoul's prying on pathetic illiterates etc.

JWH's Pacific Solution - reminiscent of Hitler's Jewish Final Solution, at a cost of $ 220 M incarcerated families in Nauru, Manus, Christmas Islands in appalling third world razor-wired camps. This punitive Policy of excision of asylum seekers in remote Pacific atolls,is now recognized as inhuman,retrograde and counter-productive. Women and children would no longer be kept in isolation and separation from spouses. Facilities are available for children in Aust.Evan's abolished Temporary Protection Visas. UNHRC - the International body on Human Rights brought 14 adverse findings against Aust. Howard refused to allow delegates entry, even though we are signatories to 1951 Convention Relating to State of Refugees and 1967 Protocols Convention Governing Specific Aspects of Refugee Problems.

UNHCR - Refugee Agency cares for 25.1 million refugees and displaced persons. Many destitute from Iraq and Afghanistan shock-an-awe conflagration.

Austcare, Caritas, Jesuit Refugee Services, Oxfam etc are some of the Agencies administering to their plight and welfare.

Banjo said " I say the boat people are not 'real refugees' because they have traveled over a number of countries where their safety was not a question, with the direct object of getting to Aus. That alone disqualifies them as being refugees."

No, it doesn't disqualify them at all, either under the Refugee Convention or Australian law.

As for people "disappearing underground", even during the Howard era, many asylum seekers were actually let out of detention at various types at the discretion of the Minister while their refugee claims were still being finalised. Some specific visas were even created for this purpose. Not one of them "disappeared underground". Neither is their a record of people disappearing among the many other asylum seekers who have always been able to live in the community (although often while qualifying for no assistance) while their claims have been assessed.

dalma - I realise cheap shots at politicians is an obigatory way of trying to dismiss their arguments, but I'm not sure why you felt the need to launch such smears of me when you then go on to write a wide-ranging assessment which basically agrees with mine (apart from your over the top comparison of Howard to Hitler). In any case, apart from correctly noting the Democrats dismal 2007 performance (even worse than the 2004 performance when I was Leader), your smears are mostly inaccurate or exaggerations.

Andrew,there's nowhere to hide the fact that as a parliamentarian and as one belonging to a benighted political party you were irrelevant as have been the arguments you have taken the trouble to post.Give it away,pal.osters are too wise for you to get away with anything

socratease

A stunningly incisive riposte socratease

- it doesn't say much about you if you spend your time responding to people you suggest are 'irrelevant', particularly if all you can do is throw mud rather than engage with the facts.

The arguments I'm putting forward here are consistent with those which were argued by myself and a number of others over many years. The fact that the political tide started turning a few years ago in response to those arguments does not in itself mean those arguments were and are right, but it certainly means they're not irrelevant.

In order to support any sort of open-ended commitment to take in people, you would have to either believe that there are no limits to growth, either on the global or the national scale, or that they are so far in the future that we can ignore them. Never mind the statistics from, say, the Worldwatch Institute on shortages or losses of arable land, fresh water, biodiversity, fish stocks, minerals that are vital to our technology, and capacity of the environment to safely absorb wastes.

Despite our serious water problems, our politicians are adding a million people to the population every three years. It seems that any shortfalls will be accommodated by sacrificing the environment and reducing the personal freedom and quality of life of ordinary people, who are already being priced out of detached housing with gardens. This won't apply to the politicians, of course, with their generous benefits. The people silos are only for the proles.

Senator Bartlett may assure us that asylum seeker numbers will never be large, but the facts from Europe and the US say otherwise. Likewise when refugee advocates scoff about the existence of fraudulent asylum claims or the difficulty of removing failed asylum seekers with no travel documents. See Briefing Paper 9.14 on the Migration Watch UK site (www.migrationwatchuk.org), where the numbers are referenced to the original British government documents. The UK got 499,000 asylum claims from 1997-2004, not counting dependants. (Asylum seekers are allowed to bring in spouses, children, and sometimes parents and grandparents.) 113,00 (23%) were accepted as refugees, including after appeal. 72,000 (14%) were granted exceptional leave to remain, sometimes for humanitarian reasons, but usually because it was practically impossible to deport them (see Briefing Paper 9.4). 63% (314,000) were completely rejected, but only 75,000 were removed. Germany got 430,000 claims in 1992 alone. Numbers have fallen off since, but Europe has also adopted tougher policies. See

http://www.cis.org/articles/2000/back500.html

by Prof. David Martin, which also discusses the US situation.