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The Forum > Article Comments > Big Foot, first term Labor and questions of national identity > Comments

Big Foot, first term Labor and questions of national identity : Comments

By Ian Goodwin-Smith and Deirdre Tedmanson, published 22/8/2008

Note to 'The Australian': the people have spoken. In a landslide, Australians voted for social justice and an inclusive national identity.

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A Landslide! This must be some new definition of Landslide you're using .. so they have a majority in both houses?

Labor won by a small margin, I guess somehow you might not have noticed that in your apparant glee that the evil Howard has gone, and here we are all this time later and you're still having to use his image to invigorate your hatred.

The right will rise again
Posted by rpg, Friday, 22 August 2008 9:17:56 AM
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LOL

Where were you two during the election campaign, were you two in another country?

Kevin Rudd was elected on the fact that he marketed himself as mini-John Howard

He mentioned social conservative about 200 times, he talked about protecting the economy and keeping interest rate low, ie like the last government.

He implied he would do something about grocery prices and petrol and we are waiting.

Lets get some facts right, and away from fairy land where you two seem to live in.

The move toward China did not happened on Rudd's watch, we have worked on the free trade agreement for the last 5 years, trade with China rose more than 10 times from the end of last Labor government to the end of the Howard government. Student from China studying in Australia increased more than 5 times, imagration from China more than doubled. Yeah Rudd speak Mandarin, but many Chinese now speak english under Howards watch, I guess in your opinion, 1 Rudd > 1 million Chinese ..... wait that would be racist!

Illegal people are not allowed into Australia, that is why we have Customs and detention centers, we have an imagration system. I myself waited 3 years before I came to Australia under the correct channel, why should someone who have money to pay for a boat get to come to Australia before me and jump the queue? Can you answer this question.

Imagration from middle eastern country was also increased significantly under the Liberal government, but I guess it was just all Kevin magneficient!

Reconciliation, yeah Rudd said sorry .... next day .... he said there will be no compensation .... there is now a suit in the courts for compensation. Rudd is not that far from Howard, who refuse to say sorry, because he fears there will be compensation claims

Please come back to the real world
Posted by dovif2, Friday, 22 August 2008 9:22:23 AM
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"We seem to have moved away from Howard’s white Australia where brown people were locked up for trying to come here, where black people were told to become like whites and where white people were paid to breed."
1. Non-visa holders were locked up. Visa-holders of any colour were admitted. Nothing has changed under the Rudd government.
2. Funny I can't recall any edicts being pronounced saying blacks had to become like whites. I do remember Cathy Freeman running around in an aboriginal flag though at the Sydney Olympics. Perhaps she had become white.
3.I didn't realize to get the baby bonus you had to show you were white.
Perhaps I have been asleep for the past 12 years.
Posted by blairbar, Friday, 22 August 2008 9:31:28 AM
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the Rudd gang is simply a 21st century version of the Whitlam outfit. I'm not looking forward to going back to the 70's. I'm not overly fussed about Democracy. If a country had more thinkers than non-thinkers, yes, but in Australia's case ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 22 August 2008 9:44:16 AM
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Not 100 percent too sure what is happening there at UniSA but I defend their right to be misinformed and ignorant.

Here are a few salient facts: Keating hated the cultural left. Abhorred the film & TV culture vultures. He had absolutely nothing in common with them. Parasites on the public purse. They were going to vote for him anyway.

The whining of the cultural left helped Howard wedge the ALP. Howard did them like a dog's dinner.

Rudd's 'mandate' ain't as strong as you think. He has performed OK. Not fab. Gillard has disappeared. Garrett is the invisible man. Smith is aural mogadon. And there's possibly a swing back to the conservatives in the states.

As a former journo I can say that The Australian is an excellent newspaper. I don't always agree with the editorial line but I don't dump it in some 1970s academic construction with News Ltd being the 'Evil Empire'.

Academics talk a lot about social justice. That's all they do. If they really cared a fig they would have joined the students in fighting the VSU legislation. They sat back, drank chardonnay and read The Adelaide Review.
Posted by Cheryl, Friday, 22 August 2008 12:02:32 PM
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This seems to be a case of a couple of academics so in love with their own trees they can't see the forest.

Federal elections are won or lost for a great multiplicity of reasons and it usually rings hollow when some interest group asserts one issue or the other was the 'key.' The Howard government got washed away for all sorts of reasons, but the issues important to left wing fringe academics were likely the least important, since the people for whom such issues are vote deciders almost always give their preferences to Labour in any case.

Children overboard, war in Iraq, anti terror legislation, tough immigration laws - all provide fertile ground for bleeding heart socialist whining and outrage, but its very doubtful they have much impact on the polls in the absence of other factors.

I voted labour on the last occasion, but not for the reasons connected with fringe notions of 'social justice.' I really just felt it was time for a change and Rudd looked like a pretty sensible alternative (unlike Latham whose periodic rantings even before he lost, worried the hell out of me).

The parties aren't nearly as different to one another as they sound. If their speeches sound very different, the reality is both parties are bound by the reality of economics, and the very large and little changing civil service which runs the country day to day. Those at the fringes of policits (left or right) make very little diffence, and I'm very glad of it.
Posted by Kalin1, Friday, 22 August 2008 1:03:19 PM
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Speaking of The Adelaide Review it was founded by Christopher Pearson who is now one of the one-dimensional ideological hacks at BARBARIAN CENTRAL---aka the Australian. Where everything is reduced to a set of binary exclusions and most of the articles are just a string of cardboard cliches strung together to "prove" a point in the culture wars.

Consider two recent articles.

Last Saturday there was an article by James Allan dismissing "alternative therapies" as essentially irrational superstitious nonsense.

As an alternative consider this site 1. http://www.radicalhealing.com which is by a fully qualified and experienced MD who actually bothered to do the EMPIRICIAL (that is evidence based) research to find out if the "alternatives" actually worked.
One of the authors inspirations was Doctor Robert Mendelsohn who was a professor of pediatrics at a major USA teaching hospital and university. Robert wrote a book titled Confessions of a Medical Heretic which expressed his dis-illusionment with conventional drugs and surgery "medicine". Based on his EMPIRICAL evidence based observations.

This week there was an essay titled Dark Green Barbarians by Craig Emerson. It had a few good points but was just a string of the usual one-dimensional right-wing cliches.

As a counter to Emerson please check out the new edition of Orion Magazine, especially the set of 6 essays personal response to climate change and the environmental crisis---try Carl Safina to start with.

1. http://www.orionmagazine.org

Or try Resurgence Magazine at 1. http://www.resurgence.org

If the people at Resurgence and Orion are "barbarians" then count me in too! I am more than proud to be a fully paid up barbarian!
Posted by Ho Hum, Friday, 22 August 2008 1:35:16 PM
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Yes these people have been hanging around in an isolated group for far too long. As has been discussed Kevin Rudd was very careful to portray himself as a ‘steady as she goes’ candidate, on social issues as well on the economy (except work choice- the issue that inspired a lot of my friends to vote Rudd).

Also could the Authors of this piece do me a favour and highlight the articles that they wrote over the past 10 years telling the left that the debate was over and the people had spoken, particularly during the ‘Tampa’ election where immigration and border securing really was a key elevation issue.

Cheers
Posted by Mattofact, Friday, 22 August 2008 2:27:59 PM
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Interest rates up, petrol price up ... even though barrels of oil are down by 20%, ... groceries are up, inflation is up, electricity is up, unemployment is up,

standard of living is down, Australians average wealth is down,

all in eight months of Rudd and his “recognise(ing) where markets fail and then intervene(ing) on behalf of a compassionate society”.

His convoluted talking and madness is leading us to economic disaster. And then wait until he tries to implement IR reforms and Emissions Trading.

Oh and when was Howard ever lectured on Human Rights by a Communist Chinese Dictator ... like Rudd during his first trip to China. No bloody wonder he was so quiet on his latest fawning trip to see his demigods.
Posted by keith, Friday, 22 August 2008 4:38:52 PM
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Oh and that idiot Roxon lied when they stuck up the price of my booze.
Posted by keith, Friday, 22 August 2008 4:40:28 PM
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What a parade of sad sore losers posting their whinges here.

Get over it people. There's a new legitimacy in the land and human values are back in town.
Posted by Spikey, Friday, 22 August 2008 7:27:05 PM
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This article sounds strangely triumphant, given that Rudd's not left. He's not even really right. The terms are becoming increasingly redundant. We're not told that by the main stream media who cling to it, though.

Cheryl, you were going so well until saying that The Australian is an excellent newspaper. It's not. None of the newspapers in Australia are particularly good, and even worse at admitting when they've been caught fudging. It's been listing aimlessly for some time, and had everything but the result completely wrong at the last election, despite constant bleatings that they were the only ones that really knew, er, anything political. They were pwnt, completely. The current beat-up of Costello is another example: it's based on nothing...
Posted by Chade, Friday, 22 August 2008 7:44:27 PM
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"Interest rates up, petrol price up....even though barrels of oil are down by 20%...groceries are up, inflation is up, electricity is up, unemployment is up"

Crikey, I never realized that the country was disintigrating as we speak. What else can we throw in? I know, how about millitant trade unionists stalking the land, feasting on the flesh of babies?

Seriously Keith, what are you crapping on about? Tally up everything you don't like and blame it all on the current government - that shows a high level of one-eyed ignorance.

Much of what you're whining about began under the Howard government and as tempting as it would be to blame them for ALL of it, this would not be factual.

We endured around 8 straight interest rate rises under Howard.

The price of oil has been rising for years, and therefore also the price of petrol. We pay the global price so Rudd -like his predecessor- has little control over fuel prices (without "interfering" in the market). Did you not notice that most countries in the world have been hit by skyrocketing fuel prices. It is a global problem, not an ALP-created problem.

BTW, from a recent low of $112 a barrel, oil has just spiked back up to $122.

High oil prices are problematic for your grocery prices since most of your food is produced and transported using petroleum. It is not the only reason groceries cost more but it is a major driver. Once again, a global problem, not ALP engineered.

After a decade or so of strong global growth, the world economy is slowing which is bound to be pushing up unemployment all over the place. Yep, you guessed it - bigger than the ALP or Australia. Actually, the rise in unemployment here has been very modest.

Inflation? Well bugger me if high fuel and food doesn't feed into that, as well as ridiculously high housing prices - you do recall that that began under Howard as well don't you? (they are currently falling).

You might want to consider doing a little more research.
Posted by Fozz, Friday, 22 August 2008 9:38:05 PM
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Kevin Rudd doesn't have a a clue about economic management.He is consumed with projecting his international image via the dubious theory of AGW.Wayne Swan is a midget in comparison to Costello in terms of the economy,both in articulation and actualisation.

This present Federal Labor lack talent,guts and the vision to make us aspire to a better life.

Perhaps they should ask Morris Iemma and Bob Carr for advice.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 23 August 2008 7:43:36 PM
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Yeah Fozz I whinge about liars and their lies, just like all you lefty idiots did about John Howard and his economic miracle.

I'm off sailing around the world at the end of this year as you blokes spend the next couple of years excusing and justifying Rudds's dysfunction and the collapse of the Australian economy.

Ha! now you have fun as you witness the disaster ... and make sure you think of me fulfilling of my 40 year old dream ... which btw has been enabled entirely as a result of Howard and Costello's brilliant economic management.
Posted by keith, Saturday, 23 August 2008 8:43:46 PM
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dovif2
"Kevin Rudd was elected on the fact that he marketed himself as mini-John Howard"
REALLY?
1. John Howard send soldiers to Iraq Kevin Rudd brought them back.
2. John Howard did signed the Kyoto protocol for environment protection Kevin Rudd signed it.
3. John Howard created the NO workchoice IRL Kevin Rudd tries to demolish it,
4. John Howard controlled from the Corporations Kevin Rudd can not ignore the Union movement
5. John Howard did not apologized to Aborigines Kevin Rudd said a sound SORRY to Aborigines.
6. John Howard ignored the working families Kevin Rudd is bringing the MATERNITY, PATERNITY AND PARENTAL LEAVE.
7. John Howard had two faces for the migrants, one for the nationalists and one for corporations, Kevin Rudd is more careful and more responsible about migrants.
8. John Howard was not very sensitive for international law, human rights etc and damaged our reputation Kevin Rudd is much more mature and responsible and until now he has created a good name worldwide.
If you call Kevin Rudd as mini-John Howard because he does not damage Australians as John Howard then I agree with you.
BUT DO NOT FORGET John Howard DID NOT ELECT AS MP!
What a humiliation! YOU KNOW THE REASON!
HE WAS THE WORST PM OF AUSTRALIA!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Saturday, 23 August 2008 9:02:42 PM
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Under Howard the national debt approximately tripled, the Current Account deficit blew out to the fourth highest in the world, interest rates reached the second highest in the developed world, and inflation at the time they left office was among the highest of any western country.

I feel we got rid of them just in time. If they had been re-elected their high-spending policies would have driven inflation and interest rates up, up, up, just as the world economy entered the most difficult patch for decades.

They would have accelerated their orgy of destruction of the the pay and conditions of workers, as the next phase of their extreme WorkNOchoices was imposed.

The Liberal Coalition would have been the completely wrong government to have in power in a time of economic uncertainty.

.... Actually come to think of it, they weren't too helpful to have during the boom either. Tens of billions in windfall, from the mining boom and unprecedented global prosperity. Practically nothing in the public domain to show for it. The wasted decade.
Posted by ex_liberal_voter, Saturday, 23 August 2008 11:00:53 PM
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" We seem to have accepted that climate change was not a creation or some fiction of the Left " What Rubbish in and Rubbish out". The only one so far that has gained from this western fiction is Putin's plan at the expense of democracy. The lefts vacuous global warming fictional attempt to fill their " being and nothingness " is now being filled by Putin who clearly sees the hypocrisy in the lefts folly (It takes one to know one) and lost direction. The left have got away with feeding this education hogwash to the Australian public for so long and now will realize that influences outside their control will now set the agenda. It would be really good to see the left admit and cough up with the costs of their failed agenda. The lefts fiction only proves that their are to many with their snouts in the public trough..
Posted by Dallas, Saturday, 23 August 2008 11:51:56 PM
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I had hoped for an intelligent and reasoned counter-argument from you Keith, but it seems it is not to be. Oh well.

BTW, have fun sailing around the world. Make sure you call into North America. Visit Los Angeles and visit Vancouver and compare the STARK difference between the two. In one place you will find at least a reasonable sembalance of a social safety net, in the other - an example of what Howard was steering us toward.
Posted by Fozz, Sunday, 24 August 2008 7:21:33 AM
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ASymeonakis and others

Do any of you understand what a ridiculous little POPINJAY Rudd looks from the perspective of people with REAL power, people like Indian PM Manmohan Singh or China's Hu Jintao. Rudd gallivants around Asia suggesting "Asian Unions," nuclear disarmament and saving the whales. He comes across like minor bureaucrat with delusions of grandeur.

Howard, for all his faults, rarely subjected us to this sort of ridicule.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 24 August 2008 1:53:28 PM
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I seem to recall that he signed us up a war on false premises (WMD's) and for the remainder of his time in office, trotted along all doe-eyed behind Georgey-porgy like a rather pathetic little lap dog.

And the world was watching.
Posted by Fozz, Sunday, 24 August 2008 5:14:16 PM
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Fozz,

The Iraq war decision is an interesting one.

Let's start by understanding a simple fact. The decision was not whether Iraq should be invaded. That question was way above any Australian Prime Minister's pay scale.

The question confronting Howard was this:

Given that the Americans are going to invade is it AUSTRALIA'S best interests to tag along with a nominal force; or to sit this one out?

Whether or not the anti-war and / or anti-American side likes to admit it, this was not an easy question to answer. There were good arguments on both sides.

For what it's worth my personal view is this:

--The American decision to invade Iraq was ill-considered.

--Despite that I think, on balance, it was in our interests to tag along

Note that Rudd is having to perform a similar balancing act.

Yes, Australian troops are slowly exiting Iraq but we are sending more troops to what I would consider an equally ill-conceived intervention in Afghanistan.

RUDD, LIKE HOWARD, IS EVER MINDFUL OF US REACTIONS.

You write

"And the world was watching."

Actually they weren't. I cannot think of a single MATERIAL negative consequence we suffered in our relations with our Asian neighbours. On the other hand the refusal to sell uranium to India could have profound negative consequences.

The real nightmare scenario for Australia is this:

China decides to take Taiwan by force.

The US decides to help Taiwan.

Now what do we do?

Whatever you may think, this is not an easy one to answer. Even Howard equivocated when asked about that one. So maybe he was not content to trot "along all doe-eyed behind Georgey-porgy like a rather pathetic little lap dog" to the extent you think.

BTW Fozz,

Forget the schoolyard metaphor of foreign relations. Countries do not have mates. Countries have INTERESTS. At times that requires countries, especially small countries, to go along with their allies and hope for the best.

I doubt Howard was really stupid enough to imagine "Georgey-porgy" was his mate. That part was pure circus.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 24 August 2008 6:11:29 PM
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Tut Tut Fozz your true colours are showing.

My purpose in travelling the world is to broaden my mind with new experiences. I don't think I'll waste one jot on reinforcing any stereotyped attitudes and thinking ... behaviour you've just exhibited.

I'm much too mature for that sort of silly crap.

And I'm not so enamoured with social order safety nets as you seem to be. They have a cost. Just look to our neighbours across one of the seas that lap our eastern shore. And after years of a labor inspired safety net their social services are in a far worst state than ours.

I went to school with their treasurer and he to me then was a small minded dic.....! Little appears to have changed.
Posted by keith, Sunday, 24 August 2008 6:57:55 PM
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Keith,

Broaden your mind? Excuse me if I chuckle. I hope you succeed, I thought you would have been a lost cause in that department.

I did not present you with stereotypes but anecdotes of my personal experience. Only last year in fact. That means: I was there.

The US was a bit of culture shock for me and for every other Aussie I spoke to there (they are as thick as flies in California especially - must be all the sun and surf). While it differs from state to state, it is basically a society that has largely abandoned any sembalence of a social safety net as we know it, in accordance with neo-liberal ideaology. In city areas you will see FAR more beggars and homeless than you will here, it's way out of proportion per head of population. You will also quickly grow annoyed with people coming up to you, foisting upon you a service you never wanted and then expecting to be paid for it.

But you will enjoy Disneyland.

Canada is a MUCH nicer place in that regard, a more equitable society without the very obvious effects of slashing and privatising social services as the US has done.
Posted by Fozz, Monday, 25 August 2008 8:16:46 AM
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Fozz

You astonish me with the ignorance contained in your wild assertions and assumptions.

Do you seriously believe I'll swallow any of your generalisations and crap without challenge?
Could you describe the social safety net the US once had?
Isn't it a fact traditionally the US never had much of a social safety net to abandon in the first place?
But I suppose that's just one of those idealogical stereotyping equations and misinformations you lefties adopt unquestioningly and then try to foist onto open minded reasonable people.

The old 'US badder since Bush dictatorship was elected' attitude... A bit like Obama saying America will be great again if he's elected. As if the US wasn't still great. Doh!

I'd ask you where Disneyland is but alas you wouldn't know ... for your wild assertions and unquestioned beliefs show you carry it with you where ever you go.

Btw what about NZ? Best to ignore the eventual realities of an overpriced social safety net eh? The reality would be too painful for you to accept or even consider. Isn't that why you ignore it and won't address it as an example? Much easier to just unquestioningly criticise the US and nitpick John Howard and Peter Costello's great economic management of Australia eh?

You see Fozz I do believe in a safety net but only an affordable one. Your assertions and generalisations show you don't seem to have thought through what should be realistically included in a safety net.

Whereas with my openmind in assessing the limits to a safety net I include conceptions of personal responsibility, tempered charity, measured generosity and merciful compassion. You need to develop and include all of those attributes when forming an opinion on just what a safety net should look like... otherwise you could create a gigantic, overpriced, silk covered, jewel bedecked, down-filled and eventually overused cushion rather than a practical affordable and workable net ... like we currently have in Australia.
Posted by keith, Monday, 25 August 2008 9:12:56 AM
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ASymeonakis,

Stop living in your fake world

1 Rectify the Kyoto Protocal, 90% of countries who rectified it did not reach their target, all it was a political stunt, it does nothing for the environment.
2. Howard and Labor both voted to go to Iraq and the foreign minister at the time for Labor was Kevin Rudd, Kevin Rudd voted in parliament to go to war. The difference between Howard and Rudd is Rudd can shift position after the event and try to market himself as being against the war, when he actually voted for war at the time. PS he put the troops into Afganistan
3. Workchoice, why do you think Rudd is having second thoughts? Wages increases are inflationary without increase in productivity, that is why inflation rose with Rudd’s election, yeah Rudd said there will not be EAs however in a lot of industries, accounting/law/marketing etc, they have been around for 50 years, and Rudd is going to allow some form of individual contracts.
4. .”John Howard controlled from the Corporations” Do you have any facts on that LOL, lets see business and government employs 100% of electorates, they makes all the clothes we wear, the food we eat, do you think Rudd is ignoring them?
5. Apologies – see my point above, all it was is a publicity thing, and there is no compensations, all it was was words
6. Howard did nothing for families, apart from baby bonus, children rebate, ensuring they have private health care (unlike Rudd). Rudd has actually done nothing so far. He might in the future does nothing
Posted by dovif2, Monday, 25 August 2008 11:03:05 AM
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7. “John Howard had two faces for the migrants” wow he meets every migrant and has a face for each WOW, have you got any facts to say Rudd Is more careful and more responsible about migrants
8. “ John Howard was not very sensitive for international law, human rights” have you again got any facts on that?

Rudd is creating a good name worldwide LOL
Rudd got a dressing down by the Chinese premier for discussing Tibet, he got told to bud out of their affairs, it was none of his business
Rudd upset the Americans over pulling out of Iraq, the US said they respected the decision, which is a polite way of saying they disagree, but cannot do anything about it.
Rudd upset the Japanese for not including them in his first overseas trip, they had media coverage over why he went to China and not Japan.

Rudd has been around for only 9 months and he has already offended our 3 biggest trade partners, that must be what you mean about a good Face

Again Andrew, please come back to the real world

You need hel
Posted by dovif2, Monday, 25 August 2008 11:03:27 AM
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1. Howard was told by the military to pull out of Iraq at the time we have, but showed no inclination that he would do so (note: he was voted out before he could have, but anyway...). The troops that have been taken out were not needed anyway (we were never really needed in terms of troop support).

2. Rudd's overseas trips were to meet various heads of state. During the dates of his first trip, the Japanese Prime Minister did not have any spare time to accomodate this. Hence, there was no point in going to Japan...
That entire "issue" was a complete beat-up, and absolutely indefensibly stupid coverage by the media. If he did go to Japan, the headline would have been something along the lines of "Rudd can't even get to meet the Japanese PM!".

Remember Helen Mirren's invitation to meet Queen Elizabeth? Unfortunately, she was in the middle of filming, in the middle of Texas, and it was ridiculous and unreasonable for the Queen to expect her to drop everything and fly over for a 10 minute photo shoot - except the media reports and press releases were all on how rude Mirren was.
Posted by Chade, Monday, 25 August 2008 6:45:19 PM
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dovif2
1.” 90% of countries who rectified it did not reach their target” It means
(a) 10% of the countries reached their target, very useful for our environment and
(b) other countries did many things to protect our environment. This is useful for our environment too..
2. “Howard and Labor both voted to go to Iraq” Howard was the champion in the lies and Labors did not know if Howard was lying or not. On March 2003 was the invasion of Iraq, On October 2003 Forty-one ALP federal parliamentarians wrote an open letter to George Bush explaining why they opposed to war in Iraq.
3. “Workchoice, why do you think Rudd is having second thoughts?” I am waiting a letter next days and I will write then about it.
4. “John Howard controlled from the Corporations” Do you have any facts on that LOL” He did everything to promote corporation’s interests and he ignored labors very basic rights.
5. “Apologies –all it was is a publicity thing, “ BUT Howard DID NOT SAY A SORRY TO ABORIGINES.!
6. “Rudd has actually done nothing so far. He might in the future does nothing” The ALP did what it promised before the elections about the paid Maternity, Paternity, Parental leave. Next February-March we will have the good news.
7. Before the elections Howard was against migrants for nationalist’s votes and after the elections he opened the doors for new migrants, cheap working hands for corporations.
8. “he got told to bud out of their affairs, it was none of his business” For you and other people like you democracy and human rights is not important BUT FOR RUDD THEY ARE VERY IMPORTANT, HE DID HIS JOB WELL!
“Rudd upset the Americans over pulling out of Iraq,” RUDD is an elected PM Australians wanted our soldiers back and he pulled them out of Iraq. He does not ignored Australians and followed BLINDLY the Bush, the worst president. Of USA.
9. YOU FORGOT THAT HOWARD DID NOT ELECT EVEN AS MP! AUSTRALIANS KNOW WHO IS GOOD AND WHO IS BAD!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid
Posted by ASymeonakis, Monday, 25 August 2008 9:25:47 PM
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