BN

A couple of responses.

The cost of loans between banks inceased becuase they don't trust each other after the sub-prime loan crisis and other implosions. Why should consumers pay for bank failures and the failures of their system? Second, that pricing gap has been falling in recent times in any event yet banks have not passed it on, ie they are gouging.

Pattern bargaining enables workers to maintain their living standards. In a class divided society where profit comes from the labour of workers, this is uenquivocally a good thing.

The argument for pattern-bargaining is that a worker should be paid a similar amount for performing a similar function, no matter who he performs it for. Businesses are the ones that should wear the risk of not being competitive, not expect their workers to (productivity of the individual workers is a seperate matter). That's why is generally accepted that businesses generate more income than wage earners - its the capitalist risk and return scenario. Dont get me wrong, I am an advocate for small business and the problems that they face, but your arguements against pattern-bargaining dont stack up.

As I said, productivity is another issue, and productive workers should be able to be rewarded over and above others doing the same job. Base acceptable pays though really should be relatively consistent across a particular field. If not, businesses chossing to pay less for whatever reason will put themselves in the position of not being an attractive employer, not being able to attract the best and most productive staff, leading to lower profitability and impacting on long-term viability.

Passy first.

>>there is nothing inherently leftist in state intervention. Stalinism was the ultimate expression of statised capitalism<<

Yeah, right. Russia under Stalin was part of the worldwide capitalist conspiracy. Who'd 'a thought it.

Fair point about "loony", though.

I'll have to find another word that crystallizes the concept of an ideology that is fundamentally impractical, in that it ignores everything we know about people as individuals, and how they act in the groups we call "society".

Might take some time, but. Meanwhile...

>>is there a need for more housing in Australia?<<

I have not seen any convincing evidence that there is. Do you have any statistics on the volume of unoccupied housing compared to the number of people without housing? Excluding the voluntarily homeless, of course.

>>Has the market been a failure in satisfying people's needs here?<<

It seems to have been fairly efficient, on the available evidence. Prices are falling at the moment, which is what you would expect in the current economic environment. Do you have non-anecdotal material that contradicts this?

>>Is there not a role for the State in addressing this, as it did after the second world war.<<

Not an economic one. It would create more problems than it would solve.

There might be an ideological one, but it is not practical right now, unless you are willing to dismantle and rebuild the entire financial system - superannuation, taxation, investment. All that tedious detail that tends to be ignored.

>>Are PPPs efficient? Is privatising electricity a great idea?<<

I believe that most PPPs are an abomination, as they are conceived here in Australia. Apart from anything else, they seem to be a magnet for institutionalized corruption.

Incidentally, this is a bit rich:

>>Address Tristan's arguments<<

As I pointed out, Tristan's "arguments" are in face merely political soundbites.

>>tax and welfare reform, and reform of industrial relations... a revolution in transport infrastructure... adoption of hybrid and electric vehicle technology<<

These are not arguments, Passy. They are the pipe dreams of the loo...

Nope. Still can't think of a better description. I'll keep working on it though.

Passy,

"The cost of loans between banks inceased becuase they don't trust each other after the sub-prime loan crisis and other implosions. Why should consumers pay for bank failures and the failures of their system? Second, that pricing gap has been falling in recent times in any event yet banks have not passed it on, ie they are gouging."

What makes you think it's the banks fault? Independent ratings agencies (Moodies, S&P etc) often gave the debt ratings of AAA etc. If banks were to stop investing in AAA rated products, they wouldn't be investing in much!

And we have seen NAB and ANZ (for starters) already committing to reducing rates. There's not much gouging going on. So your argument doesn't stand up.

"Pattern bargaining enables workers to maintain their living standards. In a class divided society where profit comes from the labour of workers, this is uenquivocally a good thing."

Is that right? To you and Countrygirl: How then does that statement stand up in the scenario I painted in an earlier comment? Patently, it doesn't.

Society has been divided by class for as long as we have had a post-nomadic society. The Romans, Greeks, Ancient Chinese and Japanese societies all had classes. That's not going to change.

Countrygirl:

"Base acceptable pays though really should be relatively consistent across a particular field. If not, businesses chossing to pay less for whatever reason will put themselves in the position of not being an attractive employer, not being able to attract the best and most productive staff, leading to lower profitability and impacting on long-term viability."

This is why we have awards to set minumum conditions. That, however is not an argument for pattern bargaining. Different groups of workers can be covered by the same award and with good reason, however pattern bargaining is a very bad notion which is recognised by the major parties and isn't in their policies.

BN, I dont agree with the comment about pattern bargaining allowing workers to maintain living standards - that has not merit at all. It may help, but it doesnt make it happen.

Pattern bargaining has some role to play in the absence of a strong award system. I agree that awards have a great role to play in assisting both employers and employees, and I think that this has in the past not been suitably recognised. The move to AWA's and Workchoices has dismantled a lot of the benefits of the award system for large and corporate businesses. Many small businesses still operate as non-corporate entities, that are required to comply with State awards, which doesnt level the playing field for small business, it makes it much worse. Pattern-bargaining CAN play a role in addressing the inequalities here (whether it does or whether it is abused are different issues). I'm getting off topic a little, but if your arguement is fairness to small business, then you should acknowledge that an activity that can level the playing fields between corporates and small business would be a good thing...

firstly - re: housing crisis -

see: http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/the-housing-crisis/2008/03/03/1204402367492.html

"Last year, Australians borrowed $217 billion to buy homes"

"12 times more than we were borrowing for the same goals 20 years ago."

"On the outskirts, shortages of serviced land in some cities, coupled with heavy state government charges to supply infrastructure, have been blamed for driving prices up."

One commentator:

"forecasts that the deficiency in residential stock will hit 60,000 in June this year and 129,000 by June 2009."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/shortages-fuel-housing-crisis/2008/03/27/1206207302370.html

(although demand is also undermined by the numbers of young Australians who have - for now - given up on a home of their own...)

And then there's the homelessness crisis:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/shame-on-us-rudd-pleads-for-homeless/2008/01/27/1201368945676.html

"About 100,000 people a night are homeless, "

Again: Rudd promises to do something "over 10 years"...

Increasing supply would drive prices down - and provide desperately needed shelter for vulnerable Australians. Investing in housing, though, must addressed now - not just promised "over 10 years".

And such moves must be accompanied by regional and urban consolidation, and provision of services and infrastructure.