Wobbles,

WTF? What a wonderful world of conspiracy you live in. You're seriously suggesting that big business have captured the presidencyof the US and others and actively create conflict so their companies can make money.

BTW What withdrawal?

SJF,

Here is the satellite damage photos which show the damage in the Tskhinvali area (note the completely destroyed ethnic-Georgian village just to the north: http://img29.picoodle.com/data/img29/3/8/24/f_satellitepim_7769447.jpg). Given the current ethnic cleansing in Sth Ossetia & Abkhazia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_if4CoOq9k, I think the human rights lady learnt English from watching old BBC movies) and the historical ethnic cleansing in both, I'd have to express serious doubts about the validity of ANY poll result that showed 95% turnout with a 99% majority. Especially one run by the peaceloving Russian army.

As to the support within the former Soviet countries for NATO, that is the price of democracy, not everyone agrees. The amount of support for NATO membership within Ukraine, Poland & Czechoslovakia has been tipped to surge in light of recent events.

The importance of alliances like NATO is that they counteract the might of Russia, that is apparently of some comfort to the majority in those countries.

Wobbles/Paul

The mere fact that business supports and/or funds presidential campaigns is not a conspiracy, that is the political system in the USA (and here). That American/Australian foreign policy mirrors this, is something I disagree with, but it happens too often to deny. That the companies themselves are causing conflict rather than profiting form the consequences of foreign policy decisions, seems farfetched. Not because they couldn't do so, but because there is no need for them to do so. Whatever happens Georgia still wants more weapons/equipment and is more than happy to sell all the oil it can get.

RACHE: I agree with your assesment of Putin , I think he should never be underestimated. The rise of this man from a child who was a peasant nobody, to ruler of Russia,was ANYTHING but accidental. It shows his ability to see the way forward to his goal with astute intellingence. He understood the way the system worked and the route he would have to take to get to the top,and he climbed determinedely one step after the other.

He seemed to have as his mission to restore Russia to a strong country once more. He has certainly been successful if ruthless in doing so. I think America should be trying to make an allie of him instead of living in the past. Having said that I dont think it would be the kind of friendship where you could ever let down your guard too much, because Putin's first and only loyality is to Russia and it's people.

Haganah Bet

Ah ... if in doubt, shout 'ethnic cleansing' and take a satellite photo to 'prove' it.

All the photo shows is that there has been a war in the area and that 438 buildings have been destroyed or partially destroyed. The big banner label pointing us to the concentration of destruction in the Georgian enclave is a propaganda furphy. By far the greater destruction in the photo was in Tskhinvali; it’s just that it is more spread out.

‘The importance of alliances like NATO is that they counteract the might of Russia, that is apparently of some comfort to the majority in those countries.’

That ‘might’ is economic, not military. Freed of the economic shackles of the Warsaw Pact and the Cold War arms race, both the Russian economy and the real incomes of its people have enjoyed astonishing growth over the last 8-10 years.

By contrast - rather than disbanding NATO when the Warsaw Pact threat imploded (the professed reason for starting NATO in the first place), the US has locked itself into expanding NATO to remilitarise Europe. While Russia steams ahead, the US economy sinks into a quagmire - and will probably take a few former Soviet states down with it.

Sharkfin

Re your comments on Putin, this article might be of interest:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20606.htm

SJF,

What astounds me most about the loony-leftist/conspiracy theorists is their seeming immunity/ignorance of obscene behaviour abroad, permitting rabid attention to supposed “irregularities” in US politics. For example, they squeal if a presidential candidate has a staffer who once lobbied for a cause the candidate actually supports. On the other hand they quite happily accept the fact that in Russia, an ex-kgb thug has entirely subverted the political process and has made Russia into his own private fiefdom. A new Tzar.

You ask why do they say "Russia invades, we intervene". Well UN resolutions are part of the answer. We had full UN backing to stop the ethnic slaughter in Kosovo including resolutions authorizing force. Further we did not resort to violence immediately but attempted a negotiated settlement. We were not looking to assert our authority over Serbia, nor to bring it, or neighboring countries under our sphere of control. Finally, we did not invade Serbia at all. Although bombs were dropped we didn’t drive our tanks half way into Serbia and then refuse to remove them.

Russia on the other hand has been feeding the dispute in Ossetia and Abkhazia. Many of the so called “Russians” that Putin rushed to protect had only been issued Russian passports in the VERY recent past. Furthermore, Russia has been involved with Ossetian and Abkhazian independence groups, encouraging them to attack Georgia.

The Russian economy has seen a resurgence due almost entirely to the increased price of oil. Furthermore, Russia’s might is not economic at all, although its reserves of oil and gas do provide strategic leverage. Russia’s main asset is its strong military and its swathe of nuclear weapons.

Russia is no longer a democracy, Putin humiliated his President in public during this recent conflict and confirmed to all that he is in charge. This is the man who believes that the biggest catastrophe of the 20th Century was the fall of the Soviet Union. The regime that killed tens of million of its own citizens. The worst butchers in history and total failures in their attempts to govern their people.

SJF, the damage in Tskhinvali (and in Ergneti, the damage is similarly spread out with isolated clusters) looks like a medium level warzone should. The damage in Tamarasheni looks very different (very heavy damage), from the looks of that nearly EVERY house is gone, that is what ethnic cleansing looks like (alternatively high level conflict, like Berlin in WWII).

As to 'shouting' ethnic cleansing, never have said so before actually. Seems that others are claiming ethnic cleansing is going on, the evidence demonstrates otherwise (for the moment - wait till the Chechens decide to take back Nth Ossetia) or Saakashvilli decides to expel all Russian citizens as a clear danger to National Security (they have Russian not Georgian citizenship, thus he is under no obligation to allow them to stay in Georgia).

As to the ludicrous article you cited, it does any credibility it may have had with this:

"Once the missile defense system is put in place it will work automatically with the entire nuclear capability of the United States. It will be an integral part of the US nuclear capability....And, for the first time in history---and I want to emphasize this---there will be elements of the US nuclear capability on the European continent. It simply changes the whole configuration of international security…..Of course, we have to respond to that."

Here is a list of where there were US Nuclear Weapons in Europe in 2005:

http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/euro/euro_app.pdf

Now try and tell me that Patriot missiles can take out ICBM/IRBM's, they travel at about 2-4km/s in the only period they are vulnerable to Patriot and it cannot catch them. How do they alter the status quo?

BTW Russia's might is military, keeping an army almost (less 300K) the same size as that of the Cold War USSR is an indicator of that. Looks like the NATO will need to rebuild its 'Reforger' forces (probably be mainly UK/German nowadays, the Yanks are overcomitted).