Bren exposed his true colours by omitting much relevance. Israel prefered an unwarranted, widely condemned, and failed attack on the soverign nation of Lebanon rather than negotiating with Hezbollah at the time of Goldwasser and Regev becoming POW's. They were taken in the disputed Shaba Fields. Israel in that onslaught slaughtered thousands of innocent inhabitants of South Lebanon and left behind thousands of unexploded cluster bombs.

These Israeli apologists and propagandists are fighting yesterdays wars. The strategic situation in the mid east has moved on dramatically and Iran now holds the upper hand.

Recently the Iranians showed they had rockets that could reach and accurately target Israel. Now whether Iran has Nuclear Weapons or not is no longer relevant. The fact is if they have them they can deliver them to Israel if they wish. Like Israel I expect they'll play the 'neither confirm nor deny' game. Another poster has already said there is rumour Iran has obtained redundant Cold War warheads. That's likely.

The Yanks must have had a fit when they realised the Iranians have those delivery systems. The last thing they would want would be a nuclear war in the mid east. They have huge troop concentrations in Irans neighbours and would be immediate targets. A huge part of their military would be wiped out and they'd be hard pressed to replace them ... for the immediate defence of the US. The US would be in great peril of attack.

The only loser in a mideast Nuclear War would be Israel. Oh sure Iran would be decimated but so would Israel... leaving Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Iraq and any other like minded nation to dominate the region and I think they might just ensure Israel is never rebuilt.

Game over.

I think the recent moves for peace in the region merely show an awakening to these new realities.

One hopes it is not to late for Israel and that commonsense at last prevails.

The Iranians are probably hoping for an Israeli attack. Any memorial built post nuclear war would then probably mention the Jewish instigated holocaust.

A truly terrifying thought Keith but one that isn’t beyond the realms of possibility. One wonders if
• Either side is now seriously contemplating a first strike option, they both have the same ridiculous attitude of the end justifies the means.
• Has Iran passed on the bombs (technology) to other Gulf States?

Back to the point.
Bren enough of the loaded language and spin, already.
I wish that Israel and its acolytes would stop trying to involve others in their self created problems. Face up to reality, be a nation and solve the issues in the only sensible way… Negotiate properly. The world is more than ready to help with this but not while it remains a self perpetuating obscenity. A game of Brinkmanship that has no winners and renders the situation akin to a tinder box with both sides behaving like psychologically disturbed children playing with matchese

Keith is exposing his true colours by refusing to address the point.

Hezbollah's kidnap of Israeli forces inside Israel was merely a continuation of their ongoing war against Israel. You say why didn’t Israel negotiate? Before the war Hezbollah would have used the negotiations as propaganda to pump up their supporters and raise more money and terrorists for their fight. Their terms for the recent swap show just how unwilling they are to negotiate. For two dead men, Israel had to hand over hundreds of dead Hezbollah and five live terrorists. This just shows the disdain for which Hezbollah holds its own people, who would have been left to rot, if the Israelis had suggested a 1 for 1 swap.

So Keith, Are you going to apologize for Samir Kuntar? Are you going to make excuses for his behaviour? How about the Joyous celebrations of Hezbollah when they received this vile piece of garbage home.

Surely this single incident illustrates the difference between Israel and its enemies. Kuntar kills the father and smashes the skull of the four year old child, …. And is arrested. Yes that’s right those Israeli Nazis arrested him for it, and put him in jail. I would have shot him on the spot if I’d seen him do it. In any country with capital punishment he would have been executed.BTW, when exactly did Hezbollah murder their two prisoners.

I notice with interest Keith’s relish at the prospect that Iran might do Israel some damage. Keith isn’t remotely interested in peace, as you can gather from his support for the Islamo fascist orgainsations, coupled with his desire to see Israel destroyed.

You are the worst kind of racist Keith because you can’t admit it.

>> “The Iranians are probably hoping for an Israeli attack. Any memorial built post nuclear war would then probably mention the Jewish instigated holocaust.”

For those barbarians that you support it would be the first holocaust, because they deny the other one. How about you Keith, do you deny the holocaust as well?

Paul.L
There is a difference between having a long perspective than misusing a single incident and extrapolating from there. This author’s use of stock standard propaganda techniques as made infamous by Goebbels calls into the integrity of the issues raised.

In Sales terms it is a combination of reduction to the ridiculous and Corralling (or isolating an issue that can be manipulated to show the desired perspective.) Truth in issues is when they are viewed in the context of the whole.
Neither side is blameless and pursuing blame in this fashion is pointless.

Neither Keith or me accept the original premise of the article thus the structure built on it is likewise dubious. Just because we agree with the florid, argumentative stance and intent of the author doesn’t make either of us racist.
Your criticism displays you as someone with an agenda and an unwillingness to look for a solution.

PaulL

Get stuffed.

I think that posters such as Keith underestimate the likely reaction of any US government if Iran attacked Israel or US forces in the middle east, particularly with nuclear weapons. I would imagine that they would use Iran as an terrible example, and by the time they finished pumping nuclear warheads into the country the whole place would glow. Any objections from other countries would be ignored.

This is not a pleasant outlook, but quite possible in the terrible decades that lie ahead.

If the attack did not use nuclear weapons we could see a replay of the bombing of Serbia in 1999, when no troops at all were used, and the country's infrastructure was systematically destroyed. In the case of Iran we could also see the US seizing the offshore Iranian oil wells in the Persian Gulf, and sucking them dry as fast as possible. Hopefully, this will cause the Iranians not to attack.

Hezbollah means "party of god". Iran under Ahmadinejad believes that they are under a divine mission ushering the return of the "Hidden Imam", the Mahdi. "One of the first acts of Mr Ahmadinejad's government was to donate about £10 million to the Jamkaran mosque, a popular pilgrimage site where the pious come to drop messages to the Hidden Imam into a holy well."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/1507818/'Divine-mission'-driving-Iran's-new-leader.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7255602.stm

Hezbollah and Iran represents the irrational extremist fringe of Shia Islam. They are under the delusion that they represent 'god'. It is impossible to reason with them. Seems that the only way for secular and rational Israel to deal with them is through using brutal force.

Good article. The despicable Hezbollah thrives on hate, inspired by the hate speech towards Jews in their holy book. They knew very well what they were doing when they kidnapped the two Israeli soldiers in 2006, and they would have continued had Israel not reacted. They wanted to provoke a war to recruit more hate, as it is their only means of existence. They were happy to hide amongst civilians, thus ensuring a high number of casualties amongst the population. Any child killed was exposed as a martyr for Allah. And this despicable organisation is supported by the looney left all over the Western world. I want to state clearly that everybody has the right to criticize Israel, but if you feel any sympathy for an organisation that treats a thug who happily smashed the head of a four-year old kid with a rifle as a hero, you are as despicable as Hezbollah themselves.

1.Why Israelis did not negotiat with Hezbollah for its two soldiers and attacked Lebanon? What changed and they did it now?

a. At begin Israelis underestimated Hezbollah's resistant and weapons, they did many mistakes and ...lost the war! Of cause they had the power to win the war but they did not know what exactly they wanted from this war, they have not clear goals, clear plans.
b. In many countries, from ancient years, there is a holy duty to bring back their soldiers, dead or alive, when Israelis failed to bring back their soldiers with the war they did it with negotiations.

2. Iran improved its power and harden its diplomacy for the following reasons.
a. USA have huge problems in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and they can not start an other war.
b. They can block the flow from more than 40% of the world oil and create huge problems to USA and other developed countries
d. The close ties between Iran and Shiites in Iraq, who are the majority in Iraq. Any attack against Iran will have major cost for USA in Iraq.
e. The close ties between Iran and Hezbollah, any attack against Iran could mean an attack from Hezbollah against Israel, it seems they have enough and strong waepons!
f. The long distance Iranian missiles creates an additional threat for the Israel as Iranian can hit any part of Israel.
g. There are not credible informations if the Iran has nuclear weapons or when they can make one.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

CONTINUE

CONTINUE

3. Israel status today.

a. Israelis know that the time works against them.
1. Because USA are in decline and there is no guarantee that USA will support them for ever.
2. Other major countries as European Union advices Israel to follow the way of negotiations as the best solution for their problems with Arab neighbors.
3. Israelis start to fill tired from the wars and militarization from their life and try to find a way FOR PERMANENT PEACE IN THEIR REGION. They are moving to two directions one to become member from European Union, already they did big steps to this direction but they know that EU wants from them to forget military solutions from their problems and Israelis start to understand that USA are their best adviser and found other countries as Turkey to promote their relations with their neighbors.
4. Israelis do not have any border with Iran and their relations with Persians was very good from ancient years. Israelis has problems with Arabs, with Sunnis and I do not understand why they has opened an other front with Iranian Shiites. Iran is a threat for Arab Sunnis not for Israel. Forget Iran's rhetoric, they could become best friends from Israel!
5. Israelis MUST become member from European Union and of cause MUST respect the interests from their neighbors and sign peace agreements with them. If they can not let's European Union do it for them.
6. I think Israel relations with their neighbors has entered in a new level with more visible goals for a permanent, peaceful solution.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

P.

The point is not what will happen to Iran: for their rulers don't seem to care.

The point is what is Israel's future with a nuclear armed Iran.

I agree if US troops are targetted by Iran then the consequences would be dire.

I don't think any US president would allow a nuclear attack to simply to avenge Israel. The consequences would be too great.

Serbia and Iran have significant differences. Iran is likely nuclear armed.

Examinator,

>> “There is a difference between having a long perspective than misusing a single incident and extrapolating from there”

The long perspective is filled with incidents exactly like this one. It requires no extrapolation, only interpolation.

Your critique of the article is empty. Without giving concrete examples of these supposed fallacies, it is a pointless exercise.

I have no more agenda than anyone else. I support Israel, although not unconditionally. On the evidence available it is clear to me that Israel is doing what it can to ensure the security of its people. I believe if it were a western country in Israel’s position that the fighting would be a lot more bloody, and there would be far less adherence to international law.

So is Israel perfect? No. But Israel is so much better than its enemies that it seems totally unfair to hold Israel to standards, which might see the country disappear, whilst expecting, and accepting the worst from Israel’s enemies.

I think the solution lies in a negotiated settlement between the Palestinian Authority and Israel that results in a two state solution. Maybe in 50 years when all the fighting is forgotten the countries could merge if both wanted it. Until then two states is the optimal solution.

The one state solution is the solution of the US and Israel haters of the left. They have seen their allies lose in battle over a long period and have now decided that the best way to destroy Israel is by making it majority Arab. Never mind that the one state solution is the preferred model of Hamas and all of the other Arab enemies of Israel. This solution has been dressed up in the language of democracy and morality, whilst those proposing it must KNOW, that true pluralitic liberal democracy has NO CHANCE in a single state ruled by Hamas.

These people say, “Oh but Hamas won’t be the gov’t”. I haven’t yet heard any sensible explanation on how exactly it would be prevented.

So who is Israel's partner in peace?

Paul L
I have 350 words to raise an argument. It is not my intention to convert anyone to my thinking only that I should be understood. Perhaps add perspective and perhaps challenge the propaganda designed to elicit Australian support for what is clearly an obscenity.

The primary issue in the article is a tragedy however it’s one of Israel’s making. And should be viewed in the context of
• The Zionists seizing of the land by force
• The methods employed including intimidation and terrorism.
• Disenfranchising the legal Arab owners (some still hold legal titles in exile).
• The continuing appropriation of Arab land. Without compensation.
• Unacceptable collateral damage (killing of women and children) on all too frequent incursions.
• Mass punishment (banned by the UN charter)
• “Accidental?!” Execution of independent peace activists despite film evidence to the contrary.
• Mossad execution of the wrong person in western country.
• Israel’s hidden Nukes (also against UN).
All this as consequences of an alleged 3000 year old promise from their God. Land that they as a group haven’t occupied for 2000 years is morally suspect.Imagine the Church of Jedi knights claimed Sydney on the grounds of a promise from the Force.

Much of their biblical ‘history’ is unprovable or spun to suit. e.g. the story of Masada. They were a rogue sect among their differences they ate pork and some weeks earlier raided and killed 100's Jews in a near by town.The list goes on.

In any human catastrophe like the Israel/Palestinian nationalist(?) conflict there are no angels. Neither am I taking sides. Both sides commit horrendous attrocities and only the inocents deserve pity.

I do believe Israel and Palestine are both realities. It is up to both sides to properly negotiate a political solution.

I object to any country trying to gain advantage over another by involving Australia(ns) in what is a problem of their own creation.

Further information and confirmation is available by independent Historians etc

Antonios Symeonakis

The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has been turned from a political one into a "religious" jihadists Muslim/non-Muslim conflict by the Islamists, supported by the "moderate" Muslims in Palestine. The Muslims in Palestine are killing or force-converting the non-Muslim Arabs to becoming Muslims.

The Muslim/Israeli conflict is one between a totalitarian "religious" ideology and a sovereign secular state. This is an example of the many Muslim/'fill in the blanks' conflicts that is happening in many parts of the world (e.g. Kashmir in India, Xinjiang in China, in south Thailand, Mindanao in the Philippines, Checnya in Russia, thousands of Arab Christians are killed in Iraq recently by Muslims)

(You can read all about the destruction Islam has done to the non-Muslims in their 1400 years of history http://www.historyofjihad.org/ ).

A two state solution would be good if the conflict remained along political lines. But since it has now become a Muslim/Israeli conflict this is never going to happen as it is written in Islamic scriptures that Jews must be destroyed. That is why god's army of Hezbullah and Iran are bent on destroying Israel, and 'moderate' Muslims are praying that god's will be done.

I have tried, I mean really tried, to stay out of it, but...

Where exactly, in 'Moslem Scripture' no-less, is there any mention of the need to destroy 'Israel'? History tells us that Jews & Moslems have in fact built quite productive societies in the past and quite probably will again the future.

Similarly, will somebody direct me to this remarkable hidden, source of all that is right and true which tells of the 'truth' of Massada? You know, the one where the defenders ate pork and attacked other Jewish villagers? (and please don't say Josephus, he was never an historian).

Then finally, could someone please tell me what that has to do with the extra-judicial execution of two Israeli Defence Force members who were taken prisoner (in ANY view) despite their being entitled to POW status? That is a war-crime, that is the intentional and premeditated execution of captured enemy personnel without legal recourse and/or justification. It is a war crime that resulted in the execution of Japanese Soldiers & Officer's in WWII, yet some would suggest it is appropriate here?

Israel has to bight the bullet on this one, simply amass the artillery in the Northern Border area to enable them to transform the 10sq km immediately surrounding any future snatches to a moonscape within hours. This would have the effect of ensuring a reasonably quick, comparatively painless end to the captured soldiers (way preferable to what they will undergo at the tender mercies of Hizbollah anyhow) whilst ensuring that no member of the snatch team escaped (or anything else in the area for that matter) escaped alive. This would have the added benefit of setting off IED's and destroying hidden caches of arms/booby traps. Of course artillery information is not cheap, but then again, neither are the lives of IDF members.

PS I note the WOFTSAB has being making it's usual nonsensical contribution, as it continues to eschew reasoned debate, there is no prospect of engaging it in reasoned argument. I shall just treat it as the 'Waste Of F@*#cking Time Space And Bandwidth' it represents.

Hi Hagweasel.

Still full of hate and invective!
And still on yesterdays issues.
You lost and were thrown out of Lebanon and Hezbollah now have longer range rockets.
Just how effective were your military options?

Don't you see that approach doesn't work and hasn't worked for 60 years.

And hey the Yanks now won't let your mates start a nuclear war.

By WOFTSAB you mean:

Willfully Opposing Fascist's Threats, Stupidity And Bombast.

don't you Hagweasel?

Haganah Bet.
I do wish people who criticise me would read what I actually say and for that matter read the history of the conflict.

The pork bones in kitchens on Massada comes from archaeological findings as does the info about their Barberous activities.

While I'm on the subject Joshua's 500K army and/or sacking of Jericho can't be archeologically proven either. In fact the archaeological evidence suggests a different story one where the whole hero mythology is just that. Much of the myths appear nowhere else than in the Old Testament.
The similarities between older myths of other cultures are grounds for doubt as to the authenticity of much of the OT and thereby the Jewish claim to Israel.

The Zionists like the Old Testament authors created (spun) the national history to give a nationalist's mythology to hold their adherents together.
Why no comment about the other points?

Frankly I don't have to prove anything the onus is on the advocates to prove their case for claim.

I am not anti-Semitic (my eldest daughter is Jewish and just back from Israel.) nor Pro Palestinian it is that this proof or no proof is irrelevant. The point is that both nations exist and they need to negotiation honestly instead of the BS posturing demanding impossible pre conditions in order to justify fundamental intrangience.
As I‘ve said before both sides are behaving like two psychologically damaged children playing matches in a powder locker. Meanwhile good people are being killed and for what…arrogance and pride.
I’m bored with this subject
Bye.

Philip Tang "The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has been turned from a political one into a "religious" jihadists"
We must be careful when we mix up the religious with politics.
Some may try to convicted us about it but I am sure Palestinian are less religious than Bush.
Palestinians are not Talibans That's sure and WELL KNOWN WORLD WIDE, WHAT ANY AMERICAN EXTREMIST WRITE ABOUT IT IS AN OTHER STORY. DO NOT FORGET THAT AMERICAN IS IN DICLINE OF CAUSE ITS DERTY POLICIES.
American people have realized how terrible wrong is their policy and ACCORDING TO LAST WEEK'S SURVEY ONLY 10% OF AMERICANS AGREE WITH THE DIRECTION FROM THEIR COUNTRY.

Paul.L, "a two state solution. Maybe in 50 years.."
If the Israel will not solve its problems with Palestinians and its neighbors with in 15 years and enter in European Union then it it will HAS HUGE PROBLEMS IN THE FUTURE.
1. Did you see who was the co-chairman in the meeting for the Mediterranean Union? The president of Egypt, The Israel was there next to Syria!
2. The America is in huge decline and soon they could not support or be ready to support Israel as now.
3. The oil is finishing and soon the region will lose its strategic value and USA will not need it so much as now.
4. International community understand both sites BUT OVER ALL IT IS INTERESTED FOR THEIR OWN BUSINESS! The Arab market is huge comparing with the tiny market of Israel! You know it.
Israelis started to understand their conditions and follow their own policy, different from USA foreign policy, their discussions with Syrian are moving to the right directions.
SECURITY FOR ISRAEL, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINIANS, THE FAIR, LONG LASTING SOLUTION.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Examinator,

You say that you are not taking sides, but your "context" lacks many salient details.

Firstly there is the THREE Arab invasions of Israel between 1948 and 1973. (The first of which PRECEDES all your points) These were all attempts to WIPE OUT Israel, and wars of national survival are never going to adhere to such a nebulous concept as international law. After all, what point is there in being legal, but being dead? The land Israel took in 1967 was only taken after the ARABS again decided they could wipe out Israel.

Israel took land from those countries which participated in the attacks for strategic purposes. It was as much about ensuring the country couldn’t be cut in half by arab tanks driving 10 minutes to the sea, as a naked grab for land. In any case the precedent for an aggressor losing land to their enemy is well and truly set. Alsace/Lorraine for example.

Beyond the simple land issue has been the 40 years of terrorism which Israel has suffered from. Israel has a RIGHT to defend it citizens.

You speak of mass punishment/collateral damage etc, as if somehow the fact that Israel’s enemies target large groups of innocent civilians for mass murder just wasn’t an issue. When each hamas suicide bomber can kill 100 people, is it any surprise that Israel can live with the collateral damage of attacking terrorists hiding behind the skirts of their women. It’s a sad calculation but what are Israels alternatives?

Withdrawing unilaterally from the occupied territories? They tried that in Gaza, look at how far it got them.

I don’t care about those idiot peace activists. As far as I’m concerned if you f@ck with a 50 ton bulldozer, you are asking for trouble. They remind me of Mao’s ( or was it Ho Chi Minh?) “useful idiots”. I don’t see any of the peace activist trying to put themselves between a Hamas suicide bomber and his victims. I don’t see these peace activist in Sderot, human shields to the rockets hamas shoots over the border from Gaza every day.

I am still waiting for the 'archeological' evidence to support the suggestion that 'pork' bones were found in the Kitchen's at Massada. Frankly, the place was taken by the Roman's, who ate pork, so the historical significance of finding pork bones where the Romans once went is beyond my comprehension (in fact, I'd have to suggest even the Bedouin may have eaten pork up till the advent of Mohammed, there certainly was no prohibition upon them so doing prior to that).

WOFTSAB, the latest military excursion into Lebanon certainly, if nothing else, secured the safety of the Northern Towns, Settlements, etc. from the incessant nuisance rocket attacks. Like it or lump it, they have pretty much ceased. Personally I have always advocated sending the SLA back in (leave their families over the border in Israel where the IDF can protect them from Hizbollah) and let them get their revenge against Hizbollah. Give them WHATEVER they want, air support, artillery, weapons, bulldozers, etc.

That WOULD fix the problem. Hizbollah would not be able to attack their families at will as happened last time, so the SLA would be ten times more effective.* That would see a friendly, Christian neighbour to the North, and two friendly (or at least not militantly unfriendly) neighbours to the South and East.

* Hizbollah & Amal have little fear of the IDF, the IDF is restricted in how and when it can strike at them, and if they hide amongst the civilian population they are nearly impossible to hit. They do fear the SLA however, because the SLA never did come to terms with trying to minimize civilian casualties. Israel would only have to set up the South Lebanon defence zone again, but this time just use the SLA in defensive positions at the Litani (similar to those in Northern Israel now). The problem posed by Shi'ite 'civilians' and the militants amongst them, would be solved automatically when it became known that only the SLA would be involved. You probably don't support this, but surely the Maronite christians/phalangists also have a 'right of return'?

HAGWEASEL,

Hezbollah no control a great deal more inLebanaon than they did prior to the Israeli defeat and withdrawal. The are also more powerfully armed.

How you can not see this as to Israeli's disadvantage is beyond logic.

Oh and why don't you talk about your courageous IDF at Ni'lin. Did you see the facists shoot and kill a kid protesting against the conrinuing Israeli land theft?

Oh it's ok because he was protesting and throwing rocks? Right?

F...ing cowards!

Keith,

You clearly have no understanding of irony or hypocricy.

Tell us about the brave soldiers of Hamas and Hezbollah, who hide behind the skirts of their women and children. They're so brave they only target civilians.

Your disdain for democracy when it doesn't meet your loony-left agenda is showing. Hezbollah are a terrorist group which has derailed the democratic institutions of their own country. They staged a soft-coup only recently. They execute prisoners they take, yet Keith makes excuses for them.

I know you have trouble containing your excitement that these terrorist organisations might actually damage Israel in some way, but your faith is misplaced. Israel is strong and will not be dictated to by terrorists.

BTW, Anyone throwing rocks at armed men deserves what they get. It's absolutely stupid behaviour. Like that idiot girl who lay down in front of a bulldozer.

Haganabet,

I like your idea of again using the SLA against Hezbollah, which would mean playing by the terrorists rules (which are no rules, effectively). As you say, with properer indirect fire support they would be unstoppable. Like the Northern Alliance fighting the Taliban/AlQaeda.

Has everyone forgotten the Bali bombing already? And 9/11, the London and Madrid and Mumbai bombings?

There is a fanatical group in the ME who call themselves Muslims and specialise in murder. They make everyones life a misery. They would happily blow up you infidels in Australia Square if they could.

They are ruining Lebanon, they have already driven out an ancient Jewish community and driven out enough Christians to give the country a Muslim majority. Given half a chance they will drive out the remaining Christians.

They are controlling the education system in Gaza and elsewhere, and training children in the glories of martyrdom through suicidal homicide. They even use children's TV for that purpose. In Israel, even when under threat from these evil maniacs, the law allows dissidents to express negative views about the states reaction to these people and allows Atheists to declare themselves. What do you think Hamas or Hizbollah would do to those who demonstrated against the Hamas rockets fired at Israeli schools, or women who demanded equal rights? Or gays?

Do you think that the average Muslim woman wants to wear a Bhurqa or be stoned to death if she is unfaithful to her husband?

And yes sympathise with the Palestinians, but those who chose to become Israeli citizens largely prefer to stay there (particularly the Christians and the Druze). It is the Islamists and the hostile Arab states who are the cause of their main problems. Israel supplies Gaza with electricity and water, even when they fire rockets at them.

And please also give a thought to the best part of a million Jewish refugees plus Druze, Christians, and Baha'i who make up the majority of Israel's population. There houses were stolen by the Arab countries, perhaps they could be given to the Palestinians, that would be fair.

Haganah Bet

The call for Muslims in the Koran and hadiths to hate and kill Jews is well documented. They are called swine, apes, devil. History records the mass murdering of 900 Jewish men by Mohammad in Banu Qurayzah and their women enslaved and sold into slavery.
http://www.islam-watch.org/Larry/First-Final-Solution-of-Jews-of-Muhammad-Koran.htm

The US helped Islamists extremism by killing off Sadam Hussien. It is difficult to see how secular Israel can defend itself against the coming wars with the Shia Muslims this time round.
http://mattbeynonrees.blogspot.com/2007/07/hamas-brings-sunni-shia-hatreds-to-west.html
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2007/02/sunni-shia-iraq-iran-arab

The Israelis may need the help of the secular Muslims under the Fatah government to defeat the religious fanaticism of the Hamas. http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/08/02/palestinian.infighting/index.html

Philip Tang, the Koran describes Jews as people of the book (as indeed even Hamas acknowledges) and some of the most advanced cultures in the last 1200 years have come when they live in peace with each other. That said, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

As to massacres, look at what happened between the Roman Catholic Church & the Eastern Orthodox Church (Constantinople springs to mind) and wonder how they ever managed to bury the hatchet (other than in each other). The fact is, they did, despite both sides despising one another as heretics for a millenium.

Regarding the Shia, the coming problem poses a far greater threat to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Turkey, etc. than most realise. The upcoming arms race will pose serious problems, as 'Mutually Assured Destruction' type arrangements require rationality on both sides and we ain't dealing with a region where rationality and statesmanship necessarily go hand in hand.

Paul,

I think there is a lot of support (particularly here & in Canada) for a return to the SLA occupation of Sth.Lebanon. In order to make it work there would need to be a change in how it was run - a separate quasi-State, with a solid northern border run entirely by the SLA with Israeli/US advisors, weapons & instructors, plus additional fire support should be enough. As a Democratic Christian State, it should be possible to get support from the Church groups in the USA and by shutting down the Litani-Drug Growing Zone, Hizbollah will be hurt badly. It must be strong enough to stand against Syria if it comes to that. But it would not be an occupation, more like a Christian homeland, the SLA would be equipped to (and must be able to) stand alone (for starters, leave their dependents in Israel under the protection of the IDF, thus depriving Hizbollah/Amal of targets). If Syria gets involved, of course there would be a mutual relationship with the IDF, but they must be able to deal with anything short of that. That would be a Lebanese solution to a Lebanese problem.