yes, paramouncy of childrens needs, claims, fears and experiences must apply to legal processes, but that isn't the same thing as 'giving into childish whims'.

I wish the conversation could stay with safety for children, and how to make it so

Cotter, "I referred to the refusal to engage with the issue, the distractions and disimulation that clouds clear communication" - for many of those of us who have been through the mill the issues we raise are central to the issue. The widespread indifference to the use of false allegations is in my view a very likely contributer to legitimate allegations being ignored. An unjust system which continues to tell fathers that their lives are of no value will add to the anger and sense of helplessness that many men feel during this process. It would be a miracle if that did not turn into harmful behaviour in some instances. We are engaging with the issue, we just don't see it the same way as you do. The allegation of bullying was wrong and should be retracted.

I agree that the childrens wishes should be considered, treated with respect etc but we also need to consider the childs ability to make informed choices. We may be saying the same thing here with different words, the quote from Barfenzie you referenced seems to be saying something different. We don't lump adult responsabilities because their development is still taking place.

I didn't get to the report writer stage, to much harm was bing done to all of us by the lead up process and the very real PAS that was going on. I'm quite certain that it's not fake, I've seen it first hand. I gave in to unreasonable and damaging demands as the lesser of evils.

I agree child protection does not work well. We do need some serious work on that issue but I don't accept that reasons which would not be acceptable to take kids away from parents in intact families should be sufficient after separation. We should have one child protection system which works, not multiple disfunctional ones.

R0bert