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The Forum > Article Comments > Pigeon-holes weren't made for housing humans > Comments

Pigeon-holes weren't made for housing humans : Comments

By Irfan Yusuf, published 26/6/2008

People have layers of identity and a wide range of views, whether they identify as Christian or Muslim.

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I would direct my main comment to "On Line Opinion's - About the Author". It seems to me that the article should read that Irfan Yusuf is a commentator of the "Muslim" media and cultural issues. It would be great to read articles written by Irfan about all Australian media and cultural issues. I feel that the Australian Muslim minority do not need to be defended so often by Irfan.
Also, Irfan there is no need to continually put Catholicism down, its been done, actually, over done. I am constantly amazed that so many non-Catholics make it their business to study Catholicism. At least with Catholicism a commentator may say or write whatever they wish, the Catholics keep turning the other cheek. Its a little different when commentators criticise the Muslim faith.
And, Irfan actually you as a second generation Australian commentator is expected to support Christians in Saudi Arabia or for that matter anywhere in the world. I would also expect that you would give unbiased commentary on Israel, isn't that what is expected of any Australian commentator.
Posted by MAREE LORRAINE, Thursday, 26 June 2008 11:58:55 AM
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Where in the article did he put Catholicism down? All he said was that you shouldn't treat all Catholics as saying and practising the same thing. I think that's a fair comment. The easiest way to spread hate against a group is to pretend they are all the same.
Posted by BOZO_DAGWOOD, Thursday, 26 June 2008 4:28:09 PM
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Bozo, I agree, this article is not anti-Catholic – if anything I sense a tone of approval in its discussion of Catholicism’s diversity. And your comment is spot on that the easiest way to spread hate against a group is to pretend they are all the same.

This is another good article by Irfan - placing people in pigeon holes dehumanises them and reinforces the prejudices of the “pigeon-holer”
Posted by Rhian, Thursday, 26 June 2008 4:52:34 PM
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Irfan, your article would benefit from some clear statements of your own beliefs and how closely these tally with those regularly expressed by your prominent co-religionists elsewhere. For instance, do you believe that:

a) It is morally permissible to marry a one-year-old girl?
b) It is ethical to kill people who renounce the Islamic religion?
c) Publishing cartoons showing Mohammed should be punishable by law?
d) Complicity in calling a teddy bear 'Mohammed' should attract the death penalty?
e) Perpetrators of 'honour killings' should be released after two hours' detention?

All these attitudes are attested by news reports accessible via

http://atheistwiki.wikispaces.com/Outrage+scoreboard

and elsewhere. Are you prepared to renounce all these lunacies and say that they are utterly wrong? If not, then your claim to be 'different' from more radical Muslims elsewhere looks pretty thin.
Posted by Jon J, Thursday, 26 June 2008 5:18:20 PM
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Jon J

If you read Irfan’s aricles, you’ll find that he regularly addresses these and other excesses and lunacies advocated by a minority of Muslims. And yes, he’s said quite clearly that they’re wrong. But to demand that Irfan "renounce" radical Islam through such disclaimers is to practice guilt-by-association that is a thin veneer for prejudice – exactly the kind of pigeon-holing the article warns against.

Why should a Muslim commentator be required to open every discourse with a repudiation of extreme views that they quite obviously don’t espouse? Would you require liberal Christians to begin each article with “I don’t believe in the rapture, damnation of unbelievers or the sinfulness of homosexuality”; or secular humanists to enter every debate saying “I’m not a Marxist or fascist, but …?”
Posted by Rhian, Thursday, 26 June 2008 5:51:21 PM
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"The easiest way to spread hate against a group is to pretend they are all the same". Bozo_Dagwood - Comment No. 2 (June 26, 2008 4:28:09 PM)

Could this quote from Bozo possibly be from the same person who wrote the following in another OLO discussion on June 21st: "Your lot [white Christians - SP] .. showed their love for Jews by murdering 6 million of them. And your lot stood by while Bosnian Muslims were massacred".

Why is it OK to pretend that all "whites" or all "Christians", or all "white Christians" are exactly the same Bozo?
Posted by Savage Pencil, Thursday, 26 June 2008 9:06:47 PM
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SP, are you suggesting non-white Muslims were responsible for the Holocaust?
Posted by BOZO_DAGWOOD, Friday, 27 June 2008 1:26:35 AM
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Rhian,

I'm quite sure Irfan is a really nice bloke when he is making his own decisions. The problem is that he doesn't trust himself to make the most important decisions in his life, but has announced that he intends to rely on the words and behaviour of a sixth-century tribesman, as interpreted and passed on by generations of ignorant fanatics. My questions are intended to establish how much he actually depends on those words and actions. If I let Irfan into my home, am I letting Mohammed in too?

All self-professed religious believers have explicitly repudiated reason and common sense as a guide to decision making, and as a result, I have no way of knowing how far I can trust them. I just can't predict what particular triggers will switch off the rational educated civilised person and channel the savage ignorant tribesman, and unless and until I can be quite sure these triggers are well buried and are not going to be accidentally tripped, I am not about to trust a religious believer with my spouse, my children, my property or my future.

If I announced that for one out of every ten decisions, picked at random, I would act according to the precepts and example of Genghiz Khan, and proceeded to do so, how far would you trust _me_?
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 27 June 2008 8:10:25 AM
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BOZO_DAGWOOD on Friday, 27 June 2008 at 1:26:35 AM
"SP, are you suggesting non-white Muslims were responsible for the Holocaust?"

No, of course not and you KNOW that I have not suggested that at all. But why is it OK for you to tar and feather all "white Christians" with the crime of the Holocaust or of turning a blind eye to the slaughter of Bosnian Muslims in the mid-1990s? You haven't answered this at all.

Have you ever heard of the White Rose group? Here's a bit of history for you ... The White Rose (German: die Weiße Rose) was a non-violent resistance group in Nazi Germany, consisting of a number of students from the University of Munich and their philosophy professor. The group became known for an anonymous leaflet campaign, lasting from June 1942 until February 1943, that called for active opposition to German dictator Adolf Hitler's regime. (Wikipedia)

The six core members of the group were arrested by the Gestapo, convicted and executed by beheading in 1943. The group's members were motivated by their Christian beliefs. They had witnessed the atrocities of the war, both on the battlefield and against the civilian population in the East, and sensed that the reversal of fortune that the Wehrmacht suffered at Stalingrad would eventually lead to Germany's defeat. They rejected fascism and militarism and believed in a federated Europe that adhered to principles of tolerance and justice. (Wikipedia)

Today, the members of the White Rose are honored in Germany as great heroes who opposed the Third Reich in the face of deadly danger for such resistance. (Wikipedia)

Numerous other Christians in Germany were opposed to the Nazi regime as you should well know. Yet you think it is OK to slander their memory for some nasty political point.

And by the way I have used "tar and feather" as a rhetorical flourish - not a literal usage.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Friday, 27 June 2008 2:00:08 PM
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Jon J, Gengis Khan was a Buddhist. Would you allow Buddhists into your home?
Posted by BOZO_DAGWOOD, Saturday, 28 June 2008 12:19:26 AM
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Bozo!
Either your logic is clouded or you're engaging in a purile baiting game. Either way you tend to be poor at logic and discussion. Did you have the observation of your teachers "doesn't play well with other children?" one suspects so.

FYI Ghengis Khan (a self proclaimed title...like Willian the Conquerer) real name Temujin was a follower of Mongolian Sharmanism i.e. he worshiped the spirits in objacts of nature mountains streams trees etc. not Buddhism.
After he returned he set up his Capital at Ulan Batur and many religions had representation there again including Christians. He died prematurely as a result of being a drunk.

The Mongol Hordes'(3 seperate armies)their conquests happened after he had died and were clearly were for reasons other than religion. In fact there were some Christians amongst the Horde that plundered the middle east.
Wiki is fine but has errors. Do us and youself a favour expand your reading to something more eclectic.
Posted by examinator, Sunday, 29 June 2008 3:18:50 PM
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