Now there's a challenge Geoff.

But I would have said that using real names would lead to a more mature, less abusive debating style!

There is nothing wrong with opinions, OLO is titled 'Online Opinion' after all. Opinions are as important as facts.

The history of humankind is a history of dialectic contest between opposites. In fact that is how our parliaments and courts are set up. Even our sporting contests. There are probably better ways to advance society, but it seems that that is the way of we humans.

Hopefully, between all the hubhub comes a resolution of sorts. An evolution if ideas. Human culture is incredibly resilient, it doesn't like to change. Challenging the status quo brings on resistance. That's natural. If the challenge has legitimacy it wears down ignorant resistance. That all takes time. It takes millions of conversations.

If we appreciate pluralistic democracy then we should appreciate the diverse opinions that people hold and strive to make debates as constructive and mature as possible.

The volatile climate debate that is happening should be happening. It is going on in all parts of the world right now. Elaborate, endless debates are frustrating for those who seen an urgency for action, but there is no way to short circuit culture change. People have to own it.

Well who didn’t see this coming? Geoff is not interested in the climate message but the climate messenger. It only confirms AGW as political manipulation rather than being about proper science. i.e. There are hateful people who will threaten or attack you simply for who you are not what you say.

Geoff's point about "gutless" people hiding behind pseudonyms is crude, aggressive and desperate. As a nobody poster here on OLO i may even need to work harder to establish credibility rather than relying on credentials if this was a matter of importance. In my case identity isn't because the argument/opinion should be able to stand on its own merit if it makes sense.

Unfortunately what Geoff proves is that a person with a frothing delusion like this is absolutely convinced that the delusion is real when you want to be the weather maker. Who you are or think you are is of little relevance when it comes to earth's climate because our largest plasma discharge formation the sun and our galactic environment don’t go to the ballotbox and vote on anything because it doesn't care. When it comes to earth’s climate we are just a petite faaart in a hurricane not the hurricane itself.

One may suggest to Geoff to forget the politics and this outcome directed pseudo science trying to force/fudge raw data to conform to something that is expected to be seen ........... else proper science will become the true casualty.

I think Geoff's opinon piece just needs a couple of words added to it...Why listen to scientists (like me)?

Group think is such an ugly process.

Keiran, where are you citations and scientific papers?

You never provide any.

In another thread you called wikipedia, "wicked", whilst ignoring the several hundred or so citations from a huge variety of souces on an article I linked to. In fact you dismissed them out of hand.

Science is a generic-lable

The delusion that-all called science has-been peer-revieuwed ,is pure fantasy ,much-that-passes for peer-revieuw is-via-a-boys-club of secrecy-and-comercial-confidentiality.

That science is based on-fact is-a further delusion, the usual-way is to come-up-with a theory ,then-compare-the theory to-a placebo[ie-is my-theory better-than-nothing?

It-then enters the realm-of-accounting [not-for any-other-reason than to-prove-their point [let-me try-to prove my-point

First-the science needs-to-be funded ,[yes-its bleeding obvious science-needs-huge-ammounts-of-money] ,so-we have-to get-funds , but-from-who?

Medicine-funding can-only-come-via the drug cartels ,

[who dont want a cure , but a-steady-income from a pill or potions that-needs-to-be-taken-regularilly [to supress the-symptom, but preferable dosnt kill the cash cow and its income stream by giving us a cure]
Plus-they-get-a-nice-govt-CHECK-for-their-coorperate-WELL-fair?

So we-come-to where we-now-are ,you can-only get funding to-studdy those present fields to [not]find a cancer-cure,

not the-ones that-get rid of it[ie-THE-ONES-THAT_cure-it]
[thus-THE-hemp cure wont-get funded [reiches harmonics cure wont-get-funded,
even vitamin D cure-for-cancer WONT-GET-FUNDED.

[cause-its-so-darn-profitable-when-the-patient-dies and leaves-their -whole-estate-''to-find-a-cure-.[you-just-feel-you-died-for-a-good-reason
[even_IF_IT_IS_A_LIE}

If by-chance govt does-think to-fund it , it-will only-be under the supervision of science 'peers],[former-lobbiest-approved-industry-approved-shrills
[who most-likely will have been trained what is the go and what-is the no-go so-far-as origonal-research allowed shall-be

THen we come to university funding , the oil-buisness gets-involved with-a-grant
[is-even allowed to-set-the training adjenda ,and training curriculum ,
[then-the graduates all-parrot the oil-lobby-line ,thus has science become poluted.

Then we-come-to-the other invalid sciences [evolution ,for egsample [this-is-dispite no-science having EVER , even replicated a single evolution into a neo [new] species,

[mutating-a-plastic-eating-bacteria-isnt-by-science-act-but-by-natures-chance-discoveries,BUT_ITS_STILL_A_BACTERIA.

nor-even-been able to replicate even its own cell membrane ,sure it involves itself with other real sciences , but science is repeatable [or it aint science

We then-come to-the earth sciences [we-have a theory of continental plates [60 miles or so thick ], that supposedly run over and under each other , dispite not having 60 mile-high mountains [wethering-can-only-e-weather-down-rock-so-far]

we-have science calling fossil-fuel, yet it more correctly would-be algae fuel ,

There is a peer group of delusional nurds who think they are being scientific in fooling children with pretty graphs and charts then sending these into the world with unquestioning faith in science.

Yet-what-of medicine that-has antibiotic resistance because-no payed study is-allowed-on phages

It can be shown by Thermodynamic Endpoint Analysis and a process of mathematical convergence that people, who in this era cling to the notion of THEIR right to have children and grandchildren, have prepared for global WAR.

The attitude of exclusionism by AGW supporters on this forum seems trite, but in reality is getting close to something less savoury. AGW-supremacists must know by now that every one of the 6 billion people on the planet have the same goals of having 'better' children who will eugenically take over the planet. Backpedalling to hide this ugliness is seen in shallow denials and evasions of the right to children and in support for unsustainable hypotheses like AGW, and renewable energy(all based on oil). The theory is, if the general populace is worried about bogus concerns they won't panic about imminent global war.

The direct conflict of this 'What About My Children(WAMC)' stance and the Thermodynamic chaos that ensues from it are 'calculable'. Make no mistake. Humans are the greatest threat to humans, not climate change and certainly not an untestable hypothesis like AGW.

By 2050 or so, the world population is expected to reach two billion(2Billion!), essentially deleting 16 Americas from the number of people alive today. Those dead billions won't care but the two billion living will be seeking food, water and other resources on a planet where, thermodynamics and biology predict disease,. famine and warfare will be the preeminent concerns.

What we are doing here is examining efforts to balance human affairs with the planet’s limits but is the INTENTION of human affairs really to seek balance or supremacy-at-any-cost.

The thing about thermodynamics in human affairs is that it is a two edged sword. The very same quantum leaps of consciousness to destrauction that history has recorded and that awaits us in this era are also available to propel human civilisation to the stars. Thermodynamics doesn't stop outside the calorimeter or the laser. It permeates our very existence. Its up to us in very simple GEOTHERMAL & One-Child choices which side of the quantum sword we wish to choose.