re: NSW and civil disobedience...

Why fight?

Possible decline in wages and conditions...

'selling the family silver' - possibly leading, in the end, to an increase in the cost of energy - despite effort, people still find it hard to come to terms with a competitive energy market...

Besides which - more intense competition would be wasteful - and these cost structures would drive up prices...

Furthermore - Iemma is trying to push this through against the ALP party platform...

And finally - the sale of these assets would drive down govt revenue - and this would impact upon provision of public services etc.

I think these are reasonable reasons to resist...

Tristan,

I think the only reason that the government gets "income" from the electricity utilities is that it does not leave enough money in the business to replace and maintain generation buffers. It is not a sustainable business as it is currently run. I feel the government realises this and is trying to extract itself from the upcoming responsibility of power shortages. The system has been run down over the years and it is pass the parcel time wrt who allowed this to occur.

I agree with you that power prices will be higher under a privatised system due to users paying the full cost (operational expense of generation, infrastructure and capital charges), and the need for the enterprise to make a profit after paying for capital. Governments provide cheaper power to the consumer (usually operational costs and limited infrastructure) only because they can generate additional funds through taxes, which are hidden from the electricity user (other people pay either through taxes directly, or reduced services as money is diverted into power generation away from other government services such as education or health).

Tristan

I think the Weltanschauung of a more peaceful road to a better society is fundamentally flawed when that vision embraces the exploitative society in which we presently live.

Your approach accepts the legitimacy of the exploitation of workers and the theft by the bourgeoisie of the surplus value they create. It accepts the continuation of the crisis ridden accumulative process, one you yourself described (in the context of discussing the tendency of the rate of profit to decline under capitalism) as hot wired into the system.

The other problem I have with this approach is that it disarms (intellectually and perhaps physically) workers in the struggle against capital.

The idea of a more peaceful road to the same goal (whether that is some sort of peaceful road to socialism or social democracy) is, as Rosa Luxemburg in her disputes with Bernstein and Lenin n his dismissal of Kautsky, argued, not the peaceful road to the same goal but to a different goal.

I don't think you can tame the beast unless there is a fundamental re-ordering of society, one in which which workers democratically run society to satisfy human need, not to make a profit. The profit system is the enemy of humanity.

As to terror, as Marx said, the history of capitalism (and I include the state capitalism of the Stalinist regimes in this) is written in blood.

Also the red terror was a response to the White terror. The bourgeoisie are dependent on terror.

The rise of Stalin was a consequence of the de classing of the working class in Russia by the War and Civil War waged by the nice social democrats and the fascists, and the failure of the revolution to succeed in Europe.

The good society in the US is built, for example, not only only the impoverishment of many workers but also on the imperialist elite ruling the majority of the world for that class's benefit. Hardly a peaceful society if it is dependent on enslaving other nations.

Off to pick up my daughter. Hopefully my ideas are worth discussing too.

Passy: The capitalist system as we know it rests upon exploitation. And this exploitation is such that it is its most obvious and objectionable - when it is so pervasive amongst a certain demographic - that they might reasonably be called 'capitalist class': or, as Marx would say, the Bourgeoisie.

Nb though politics is more complex than class (although class is very important - see another article I've posted (reaffirming the politics of class) - http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5950

Religious, cultural, moral and other conflicts add to a sometimes volatile mix. This makes it harder to pinpont a ruling class in a purely economic sense. So also - Imperialism is real - but global relations are much more complex than Imperialism considered on its own...

Also - as I also argued in my other article on 'The Good Society' - wage earner funds/pension funds etc - technically exploit labour...

But most of those investing in such funds cannot be reasonably seen as a 'ruling class'... Expropriation of surplus value - between workers themselves - shows that such relations are a 'gordian knot'- which cannot be undone. (except by a state monopolist command economy)

Certainly there should be strong currents of economic planning, varied models of economic and participatory democracy... But ordinary people should be able to invest their savings as they wish...

anyway - there are other issues you raise, Passy, that I want to address... Can't think clearlu right now - but I'll try to get back to you later on.

PS: one more thing - you are a good writer - why don't you submit an article to OLO? Or failing that - maybe try 'Leftwrites' - which I contribute to sometimes?...

most sincerely,

Tristan

Thanks Tristan.

I think we will continue to disagree and agree.

Yes, I write well. OLO has published a number of my articles. Passy is a nickname to prevent rabid reactionaries ringing me up to abuse me or my kids, especially late at night (which has happened in the past when the Canberra Times ran some of my articles). It isn't too hard to figure out who I am from my OLO articles and my Passy views. BOAZ_David hit upon it fairly early.

I am about to partake of Rudd's efficiency dividend. I want to write oped pieces, but none of the broadsheets have been interested, given the left wing nature of my views.

So OLO looks like it for me. That and volunteer tenancy advice work.

Maudlin photo shot here.

Passy and Tristan

I enjoy both your articles and threads on OLO.

Ironic that a web-forum run by such as Graham Young remains, with a few notable exceptions, a haven for the expression of free-thought and social concern. So until something better comes along, I will continue to read these pages and proffer the occasional opinion.

Cheers