Fair enough Dan. My last post was unaccommodating. Creationism is a definite minority with most christians - and the vatican for that matter - accepting evolutionary theory.

America is resting on its intellectual laurels. I, like the author, find such a debate in the 21st C "quaint and incredible".

Dan said
"Evolutionists have a philosophical base of atheism or materialism."

This is not true. It is a ill-informed slander of many fine minds.
Darwin was a Christian.
Can't you imagine a god greater and more complex than that depicted in the old testament?

michael2 wrote:

"Dan said
"Evolutionists have a philosophical base of atheism or materialism."

This is not true. It is a ill-informed slander of many fine minds.
Darwin was a Christian.
Can't you imagine a god greater and more complex than that depicted in the old testament?"

Both Dan and Michael2 are wrong. Darwin was a Christian when he collected the data which went into his work, but he did not remain a Christian. He lost his Christian faith due to his daughter’s death.

Evolution did not have a philosophical base of atheism or materialism. It developed from the evidence.

From the net:

"Charles Darwin had a non-conformist background, but attended a Church of England school. He studied Anglican theology with the aim of becoming a clergyman, before joining the Voyage of the Beagle. On return, he developed his theory of natural selection in full awareness that it conflicted with the teleological argument. Darwin deliberated about the Christian meaning of mortality and came to think that the religious instinct had evolved with society. With the death of his daughter Annie, Darwin lost all faith in a beneficent God and saw Christianity as futile. He continued to give support to the local church and help with parish work, but on Sundays would go for a walk while his family attended church. However, at the time of writing On the Origin of Species he remained a theist, convinced of the existence of God as a First Cause.
In his later life, Darwin was frequently asked about his religious views. He went as far as saying that "Science has nothing to do with Christ, except insofar as the habit of scientific research makes a man cautious in admitting evidence. For myself, I do not believe that there ever has been any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities." However, he was always insistent that he was agnostic and had "never been an atheist"."

Dan,

I have worked with a number of scientists over the years, and a fair few of them were religious believers. However, the Christians among them were almost invariably of the Rhian/Goodthief persuasion. I can only think of one man, a physicist, who had creationist beliefs. He reconciled religion and science as follows:

God created the world 6,000 years ago as described in Genesis, but with all the evidence of a 4.5 billion year old earth and a 13.7 billion year old universe in place. The light was on its way from distant galaxies with just the right redshifts. The microwave background was there to suggest a big bang that never happened. There were radioactive minerals in the rocks in just the right proportions to suggest decay chains that had been going on for millions or billions of years. The fossils were in the rocks too, in just the right strata, with no rabbit bones in the Pre-Cambrian. The order of DNA bases and amino acids in proteins of all forms of life were altered just enough from species to species to suggest an ancient common ancestor and genetic relationships that did not exist, etc. Why the deception? Presumably to trap people who are too smart for their own good.

You aren't just arguing with a few biologists, but with all of modern science. There is also the question of whether a God who would engage in such a deception, presumably with the intent of finding an excuse to send people to hell, deserves to be worshipped.

There may well be genuine creationist scientists. The capacity to compartmentalise and deceive oneself is endless. There are also those with less creditable motives. See Ian Plimer's book, "Telling Lies for God".

Dear david f,
My recollection of reading Darwin's biography was that he was a Christian.
Struggled for years with his faith before publishing but was a Christian to the end.
It is a long time since I have read his biography and perhaps the web is a better source?

Son of god was actually crucified on Mars.
When NASA greets the return of Phoenix from Mars lo and behold all will be revealed. Black Cats will be seen to cross your path, Those that walk under ladders will be smitten and dammed. The sea scrolls will be found within the Mars crust. and the ten commandments tablets will also be brought back. The true God will also be revealed it may be Allah or Jehovah so all along it did not happen on earth Adam and Eve were created on Mars and gave bith to Cane and Abel there. If you do not believe that then you all must be gullible because it has been written We were not born yesterday. We must all continue to pay our ten percent tithing for our great temples which are an icon to GOD. We do not worship idols we worship spirits that the naked eye cannot see. So hurry back Phoenix and enlighten us so that we can all prove that science has been wrong all the time silly us. It is just as well that the American leaders believe in God so that we can refrain from invading defenceless countries and blow up innocent women and children with depleted uranium and cluster bombs and napalm and agent orange in the name of God and freedom and democracy because we all believe in god. It is all the fault of those sinful transgender gays that need counselling. Who have the cheek to want to marry each other how dare they. Marriage is only for Heterosexuals because they are normal. Why should we create stemcells to save those with Parkinsons and Moto Neuron disease this is all an act of God. When will the civilised world educate our young properly and stop teaching them superstition and fear. So Much for love thy neighbour as thyself.