Ginx

You say:

"As I have said on the other thread:

"I will leave it to the survivors of war who will march tomorrow to decide for themselves whether the day has relevance. It is their business.

"Hatred of ANZAC day?- this is a democratic opinion, but it shocks the bloody hell out of me."

I don't see why the survivors of the war should be the ones to decide its relevance considering the role the day plays in our national psyche. I don't hate Anzac day. I am trying to understand it.

In 1917 during peace negotiations with the Germans, the Bolsheviks fraternised with the German soldiers. It was part of their strategy to show to German soldiers (workers in uniform) that another world, one without war, was possible, and that German workers were the same as Russian workers and Australian workers. Their common enemy was their exploiters (ie bosses)and their states who had ordered them into this imperialist war and its consequent destruction of perhaps 10 million lives. All for profit.

One of the consequences of the war and the brutality of worker slaughtering worker was that it radicalised many soldiers. (My understanding is that the largest vote against conscription on both occasions was from the Western Front.)

Nowhere in the celebration of Anzac Day do I see any attempt to understand war and what causes it. I do see a day of ceremony which objectively glories war. My concern is that this sort of Day helps create the conditions for the same brutality tomorrow and the day after and the day after. Thus now our brave Aussies troops are in Iraq and Afghanistan helping the US and others kill probably somewhere in the vicinity of a million people. The link between the celebration of Anzac Day and the ability to recruit Australian workers to fight rotten wars seem pretty clear to me.

"I don't see why the survivors of the war should be the ones to decide its relevance considering the role the day plays in our national psyche. I don't hate Anzac day." (Passy)

I believe that they are PRECISELY the people who SHOULD decide.

Hate ANZAC Day? No. I was not referring to you. The word has been used, and it shocked me.

"I do see a day of ceremony which objectively glories war." (Passy)

Yes I know you do, and you aren't alone in that view. (I DO realize you said objectively).

I could not disagree more strongly on this. Those men marching are THE most graphic reason AGAINST war.

Whilst we as human-beings seek power and control to the extent of invasion, we will need a DEFENCE military to prevent this happening. To Australia, that is... Whilst we have Governments who collude with other Governments to this same end we will have what we have now:- an ATTACK force. And collude with them we must-smaller nations will always prostitute themselves to the superpower pimps to protect their future interests.

SO..; Governments encourage the very people we are both concerned about, to do their dirty work, and it is the military ethic to obey orders..
SO...; the beat will go on.

I see any ANZAC day type thing as appreciating what they have had to/chose to do.
You see it as an endorsement of those who put them up to it?

Ginx

You say:

"I see any ANZAC day type thing as appreciating what they have had to/chose to do.

"You see it as an endorsement of those who put them up to it?"

I see it as more than an endorsement. I see it as some false glue to attach people to a system that is essentially exploitative, ie expropriates the value workers create. That system leads to competing blocs of capital sending workers to fight in defence of their "own" exploiters. The first world war is a pretty good example, as is the second world war although the issue of fascism was an added layer to the competing capitalisms in that case.

It trains people to believe that being armed to the teeth to kill Turks or Germans or Japanese or Iraqis or Afghanis all in the name of defending Australia (ie the profit system and the bosses who are its main beneficiaries) is a good thing, and shrouds that in words like democracy and valour.

War is inherently evil and destructive. Capitalism, because of the very way it's structured along class and competitive lines, breeds war, and has to have tools to convince its working class majority to go along with war.

Anzac day is to my mind an important tool in that armoury.

In my city on Thursday thousands of Chinese students dominated the Torch rally, bought in by the Chinese Embassy. The dictatorship in China is using a range of tools to tie its workers to the system and crude nationalism is one. Objectively I see no difference between the nationalism of those waving their Chines flags in my city and preventing others from putting a point of view and the (metaphorical) flag waving that goes on on Anzac day.

I want to create a society in which war is a thing of history, stuck in a museum, not one killing millions as we write.

TBC

Ginx

Some more thoughts and questions. Hopefully you take them in the spirit of enquiry and discovery they are offered (for you and me.)

I don't accept the defence/attack distinction you mentioned, but am prepared to accept it for the purposes of this discussion.

Why is that every use of Australian troops since 1885 in the Sudan, through to the Boer War, World Wars 1 and II, Korea, Malaya, Vietnam, to now in Afghanistan, Iraq, East Timor, Solomon Island and PNG is Australia invading other countries?

Apart from the fact that we have our own imperialist interests and they express themselves through attaching ourself to a great and powerful friend (and hence going overseas to invade other countries is our insurance policy with them) my article tried to show a little historical analysis of World War 1 and the rise of Anzac day in a society that was polarising along class lines. Then Anzac day was part of the battle to prevent that polarisation. Now it is part of the battle to cement over that division.

And how do the bosses get workers to go to all these wars? Anzac day is part of that process. Was our presence in Iraq or Afghanistan questioned or encouraged by Anzac day on Friday? I think the latter.

I want a world without war where we can feed everyone, clothe everyone and provide adequate housing, health care and education for the real humanity to arise. I don't see Anzac day as in any way getting us there. Rather it hinders us in that goal precisely because it ties workers to the very system that creates war, hunger and poverty.

Anyway, I am getting a bit passionate and should desist.

Thanks for the question. I appreciate your views always.

The usual tedious and pedantic Marxist drivel.

Does the imbecile who wrote this article actually believe that if we lived under a Marxist collective led by the usual "vanguard" of bureaucrats and party commissars there would be FEWER wars and LESS oppression?

Please! Give me a break.

Thanks Sonofeire.

As the idiot you refer to, yes I do believe that working class rule is synonymous with freedom.

I think you mistake Stalinism (the defeat of the revolution) with socialism, but I guess from the tone of your comments that might be something you would not want to consider.

Why not try to address some of the issues raised in the article? Abuse is a poor substitute for rational discussion and debate.