In 9 articles since August 2005, including this one, Saunders has on only two occasions made any pretence at responding to the arguments of his many critics : http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6576#98291&page=0 and http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3737#12265.

This indicates to me that Saunders, himself, must have little confidence in the underlying substance of case he is trying to put.

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The title of this article "Saving the long term jobless" is a misnomer. As one who has been forced to jump through the hoops on a number of past occasions the "mutual obligations" that Saunders embraces are sadistic and simply designed to dissuade people who should be entitled to claim benefits from doing so.

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Paul.L has presented two contrary arguments. The first is that welfare recipients are still well off in comparison to people living in third world countries. Presumably he would be happy to see welfare recipients live like people in Haiti or Bangladesh. In fact, with stories of people being forced to share not only houses, but rooms, in some capital cities due to the skyrocketing cost of housing (i.e. the transfer of wealth from the rest of us into the pockets of unproductive land speculators), I would not be so sure that our welfare recipients are truly that much better off than many living in those countries.

Paul.L's second argument is to imply that we are all fabulously wealthy because of the resources export boom.

Indeed, there seems to be some truth in the argument that even some ordinary semi-skilled workers are doing very well at the moment. However this should be put into a broader perspective. Not everyone can enjoy the sorts of wages on offer. One first has to be prepared to move to the mining regions. Secondly, cost of living in those areas, including the costs of housing, tend to be highly inflated.

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The more critical point is the environmental dimension. Frankly, I find it appalling that so many apparently uncaring people choose to revel in what should rightly be seen as an environmental calamity. The Australian landscape is being scarred by the mineral exports boom, global warming is being made considerably worse and horrific levels of pollution are being poured into the atmosphere, water and ground in countries to which we export our minerals. Moreover, the boom is based upon the extraction of non-renewable resources which will not be available to future generations.

The current mineral resources export boom is an unnatural development in our economy which should be ended as soon as possible. If it is not our planet will pay the terrible price. And if it is, as I argue it should be, then the short term prosperity of which Paul.L writes will end

Saunder's essay is entirely invalidated by his acceptance of government unemployment statistics.

A Bulletin Gallop poll of 1999 identified (as I recall) 23%; and the Australian Independent's 2006 survey of a proved demographic corridor on the Sunshine Coast; ostensibly a region flush with tourism revenues, found 19%. This has since been updated to 21%.

Incredulous readers are welcome to take these figures to your region's Job Network personnel for the predictable stone-faced bored confirmation. I found the same response from Emerald to Brisbane.

So what value do you put on an academic who bases his evaluation on a criterion of lies and propaganda? About the same credibility you would accord to an expert who talks about jobs, not mentioning that these are mostly part time. How does one eat and pay rent on a part time income? And what of one's children? This is the entire point of employment.

What all this pivots on is definition. In any science, definitions must be consistent. Since 1890, the definition of employment has been 'a job that pays a livable wage'; conversely, unemployment being the absence of this.

Howard redefined 'employment' as having one hour of work, study or training in a week; regardless of payment or otherwise. Can cruelty and cynicism cut much deeper?

I look forward to the day when the Howards and Saunders of this world face the people's justice for their crimes.

Paul L
Do you honestly think its better to be unemployed in Oz than employed in say, China? If so I would love to know on what basis you make this statement?

I was unemployed in Australia. I had to send my kids to school some days with no lunch. We could not afford to rent a place without sharing - and what kinds of persons do you imagine want to share with a mum and two kids? We ate once a week from charity handouts along with all the street people. We had no refrigerator or washing machine. When my kids got nits from the infestations at school we couldn't afford the lotion to eradicate them. All our teeth developed cavities.

I now live in China where I earn the same wage as my Chinese colleagues. We can eat at 5 star restaurants and stay in 5 star hotels whenever we wish. My apartment which is supplied fully furnished features all mod cons including drying machine, water cooler, air con. We can go to theatres, the ballet, theme parks or any kind of entertainment which beats standing with the druggies and the pushers and the wino's every Monday night for a free hamburger and an apple.

You, my man, are talking through your hat. Or at the very least through total ignorance. Read Tony Ryan's post, or Daggett's. And pray like hell you don't ever end up destitute through no fault of your own, living on this system which you laud.

Romany

You do well to keep the anger out of your voice; instead, binding your injuries with measured dignity. Good for you, girl.

I spent a few years in that soul-destroying pit of hell known as Centrelink's Newstart, so I have some ability to empathise. But I was spared the far more cruel emotional torture of trying to raise children under that regime; mine being already almost adult. My heart goes out to you, Romany.

It occurs to me that you have a unique perspective; one that I, as a political writer, could benefit from immeasurably. I simply could not duplicate your Australia/China experience. Actually, you have probably saved me from falling into the omni-present propaganda trap... making blind presumptions about China. So I am indebted to you.

I would be very grateful if you would provide me with your ongoing experiences and observations of China. You can gauge where my values and head-space are by visiting http://www.mathaba.net/authors/ryan

If you wish to proceed, I can be contacted at tonyryan43@gmail.com

It may lift your morale a little to know that there is a quiet movement in Australia that will assuredly turn things around, and it has every prospect for success. In fact there is very little chance that it won't succeed, and it represents an entirely new political paradigm. But I will leave that to your judgement.

That invitation is, of course, extended to anyone else who would like to see genuine democratic electoral consensus-driven policies in Australia, along with equal rights and equal opportunity. If one considers the overlapping impacts of these three values, it can be seen that the outcome can only be egalitarian prosperity... a democratic meritocracy, if you like. Tony Ryan oziz4oz

Romany,

A couple of issues. China is socialist in name only, having given over to market forces in many areas. China is now merely an autocracy, and an ugly one at that.

I’m sure you wouldn’t have to get your shoes dirty walking past drug dealers and prostitutes as you went to the ballet in Australia if we sent them to “reeducation camps” for forced labour for ten years, or just executed them. Then we could start on the disabled and the mentally ill. Where would you draw the line? I am glad you are living well and that it doesn’t trouble your conscience to profit from such a brutal regime. Good for you. I hope you sleep well at night.

The real test for China, ( I never even mentioned China in my post, by the way ) is how well off are those without work? Those who aren’t lucky enough to live in the economic powerhouses or on the Olympic/tourist trail?

You say >> “Read Tony Ryan's post, or Daggett's. Pray like hell you don't ever end up destitute through no fault of your own, living on this system which you laud.”

Now its you who is talking through your hat. I lived on the centrelink system for over 5 years. One year on Jobsearch allowance and 4 years on less than ¾ of that amount on Austudy. I know exactly what I am talking about when it comes to Centrelink. Dagget doesn’t know his arse from his elbow, and he couldn’t stand you because China is “scarring the landscape” to a much greater extent than we are in Australia. And Tony statistics are highly supect. How does he determine unemployed? Anyone who isn’t working a 40 hr week? A family where only one person is working?

Where in Australia was it that you lived romany? Armidale? South Yarra? How much were you living on?