Bruce Haigh should get into politics himself, with his ‘must do’ and ‘need to’. As I suggested recently, Mr. Haigh is one of those disillusioned leftish diplomats who is, and will continue to be, at odds with a party he thought would do want he wanted it to do.

I think that the Afghans should be left to get on with killing each other, and all Australian troops should be withdrawn.
But, I don’t suppose the Rudd Government will listen to me any more than they will listen to Bruce Haigh

The more opinions I read about Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan the more I am convinced that we are in the early stages of another 30-year war. When will we learn not to take sides?

I could not agree with you more Mr.Right.
If the Poms and the Ruski's couldn't subdue the Afghan people, then what hope have the Yanks and their allies with their "brute force and ignorance" tactics. They would get more "bang for their buck" if they were to just buy the opium and burn it. That would accomplish the threefold job of providing the population with a living, getting the opium off the streets of the West and saving the lives of the NATO troops.

David

tThe Taliban were started by Clinton with Bhutto's help and funding from the Saudi's and UAE to counter the so-called northern alliance who had destroyed almost all of Afghanistan in the years after the Russians had destroyed large chunks of it in the war funded by Jimmy Carter to send the Russians broke.

The Taliban did destroy the poppies but were dreadful bullies, just ask the thousands of refugees who escaped them. But hang on a minute. When they came here we locked them in cages in the desert, turned them away or drowned them so I guess the Taliban were pretty nice after all.

Two things never cease to astonish me. 1. That it is well known that the US had decided to bomb Afghanistan in July 2001 to get that pipeline across from the Caspian Sea, 2. I still don't know why we invaded and occupied the whole country because some arabians committed a crime in the US.

WE have not achieved one single thing in Afghanistan except to make it infinitely worse for the people.

“The war in Afghanistan has boosted the growing of poppies for opium.”

That might be so but at least women are not reduced to second class citizens and are allowed to be educated.

“Instability and the inability to upgrade infrastructure caused by the war has made the viability other cash crops marginal.”

More likely, the incumbent government is considered by the growers less inclined to summary execution than the Taliban.

Re” In backing the Mujahidin against the invading Russians the US encouraged and backed the heroin trade as a means for the Mujahidin to be self-funding thereby reducing the cost to US taxpayers of bleeding the Soviet Union.”

Two comments

The amount the USA spends on anti drug initiatives, it would have been cheaper to buy the entire opium crop at source and I am sure the minds the USA buys to develop strategy had that figured.

More certain – a common and greater enemy makes for strange bedfellows.

“foreigners and dispossessed young men otherwise known as terrorists.”

Terrorists are creatures of opportunity. They have been around since before Rome invaded its sister Italian states and will be around after Afghanistan is a peaceful haven, they will just move on.

“boosted the confidence and hardened the resolve of the Taliban and their backers.”

And similar could have been said about the reaction of IRA to the entry of UK forces into Northern Ireland in the late 1960’s.

As dearest Margaret said “All attempts to destroy democracy by terrorism will fail. It must be business as usual.”

“it was brought home to me that no outside military force could hope to impose its will on Afghanistan.”

And I thought Afghanistan had its own government, who the Australian forces were supporting. Maybe they should reinstall the royal family.

“If the government were serious ….. the Taliban and their backers.”

I see no evidence to suggest they have not been doing so since we arrived in Afghanistan.

Marilyn Shepherd “We have not achieved one single thing in Afghanistan except to make it infinitely worse for the people.”

Afghani women would disagree with you.

Heaven's above Col Rouge, Afghan women are not getting any better deal you silly twerp. There are 2 million widows begging in the streets, girls as young as 8 are being sold into marriage, rape is rife and women are self-immolating on an horrendous scale to get away from rape and brutality.

I think you live in fantasy land mate. It might be safe for a few women in Kabul but even women MP's couldn't be seen in public without being threatened with death.

Marilyn shepherd “Afghan women are not getting any better deal you silly twerp.”

…. “I think you live in fantasy land mate. It might be safe for a few women in Kabul but even women MP's couldn't be seen in public without being threatened with death.”

Well what can a silly twerp and fantasist say

Try this

Background reading http://www.un.org/events/women/2002/sit.htm

Someone is doing a lot for Afghani women, but Marilyn Shepherd thinks she knows better.

Both

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/employment/crisis/download/afghanwomen.pdf

http://usawc.state.gov/

suggest someone is doing something "positive"

and

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5i4Lt27OFrzdDvdURAXCgBqDXIkhA

suggests something positive is happening.

But Marilyn Shepherd know more than anyone else, we are just silly twerps.

Following the liberalization of Afghanistan in 1959, under the Monarchy, women were no longer required to wear the burkah and allowed to study up to and including University level.

Following the first communist coup (1973) then the second communist coup (the Moscow faction -1978) then the invasion by USSR (1979) Afghanistan became a charnel house of repression, only to sink deeper into even greater repression when the Taliban took power following the Russia crawl out.

And now Marilyn thinks things are bad.

Above and beyond the material aid, if one thing exists, for all Afghanis and particularly for women, which was not available for many years, before the west removed the Taliban, it is simple

Hope.

So you cannot eat hope.

You cannot keep warm with hope.

Children will still get sick, regardless of how much hope they have.

But for all its inadequacies, to live without hope is the cruelest torture possible, compared to living with it.

But I am a silly twerp, living in fantasy land. What could I possibly know about hope?

I would modestly suggest, a hell of a lot more than Marilyn Shepherd.

Footnote,
Marilyn, you have had your free kick. Call me names again and I will respond in kind.

Six years after the departure of the repressive Taleban this is the paradox of women in Afghanistan. They now have a say and a position under the country's constitution. But they have to work in an atmosphere of fear and intimidation
In a country where for the last six years there are many claims regarding “democracy”, “human rights”, and “freedom of press” An Afghan court sentenced Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh, 23, a reporter with the Jahan-e Now daily paper, to death on Tuesday after he was found guilty of blasphemy, a court official said.
Kambakhsh was detained three months ago after complaints from some of his university classmates for allegedly mocking Islam and the Koran, and for distributing an article which said the Prophet Mohammad had ignored the rights of women.
"That is all that the government does - send a letter by mail once every month saying my life is under threat. There isn't talk of even providing security," says the feisty parliamentarian and mother of three daughters.>> She is one of six MPs getting such a letter these days.
Afghanistan's Independent Human Rights Commission, for example, alone documented over 1,500 cases of atrocities against women last year
Amnesty International calls on the government of Afghanistan and its international partners to reaffirm their commitment to protect the rights of women and girls in Afghanistan in accordance with international human rights law and standards. Access to education, in conditions of safety and security, is essential for realising the human rights of girls. In Afghanistan, many girls and women still live under daily threat for attending a school or teaching in one. Their courage in the face of terrible odds is a reminder that the struggle for the right to education is being fought daily in many communities in Afghanistan.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

This is old fogy strategic thinking on the part of a former diplomat. For any nation that is already fighting its enemy by means of military operations to abandon the latter and open instead the door of diplomacy, is to admit defeat. And hence negotiate with its now more emboldened and confident enemy from a position of weakness. In such conditions of military “surrendering”, especially to a religiously inspired fanatic enemy, it would be utterly foolish to consider that such a nation, or a coalition of nations as presently in Afghanistan, could achieve any of its initial goals through diplomacy other than its conditions of “surrender”, is to make a mockery of the art of Talleyrand

Bruce Haigh’s proposals about Afghanistan have sprang from a strategically barren soil.

http://kotzabasis1.blogspot.co

I'm sorry the link is: http://kotzabasis1.blogspot.com

Col I actually thought it best to ask Afghans rather than rely on western propaganda.

I'm still thinking of doing a thread on "Dirty Money, Dirty Tricks and the CIA"

It occurs to me that you cannot budget 'bribe money' or 'gun money' for small governments who can help you in getting a pipeline or some other resource.. so..where would the money come from ?

DRUGS... is the most likely candidate.

I often wonder why, after all the time in Afghanistan, they have not completely irradicated all the opium poppies 'en masse'...
They seem to be 'holding back' and the justification is "Oh.. we can't do that or we will lose the hearts and minds of important allies"

...which raises questions about the morality of being there at all.

I can only speculate, but it seems that 'morality' is not what Afghanistan is about, its 'interests' and the sub plots of morality take second place to the big picture of 'interests'...

1/ If we destroy all the opium poppies.. allies become enemies.
2/ If we leave them..and leave afghanistan, they ALL become our enemies, and Al Qaeda is back in business training terrorists to kill us.
3/ Once the Taliban get back in power... the non Pashtun minorities will whine 'persecution.help us, help us PUH-lease' but when we save them, they are back in the opium business.

4/ In all of this, we are bound to the USA by alliance..and without that alliance, we are just dead meat.

John 3:16 looks mighty good right now :)

Bruce

Another excellent article. Your extended first hand experience in the South Asian region gives your views greater credibility than a (to date) ordinary politician of a new government.

Its obvious Rudd has a feel for foreign and defence issues. This may explain why he appears comfortable in having Ministers of Foreign Affairs and Defence that clearrly lack experience and individual thought. Maybe they'll learn - but then again they may prefer to rely on micromanagement of an overworked Rudd.
.
.

MARYLYN

As usual I agree with your wide ranging views. Invading Afghanistan to destroy bin Laden (literally the Engineer of 9/11) was just a cover. This is indicated by America's puzzling reliance on the Pakistani Army and Afghan warlords to bloc bin Laden's escape from Tora Bora in November 2001 http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0304/p01s03-wosc.html .

It is no surprise that the US allowed such a prominent Saudi Arabian religeous leader to escape - economic relations with Saudi Arabia would have been strained had bin Laden been caught.

Even though 3,000 Americans died on 9/11 America's demoralising system of priorities allows the invasion of two countries while permitting bin Laden (an exiled "Prince" of Arabia) to grow older...

Pete