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The Forum > Article Comments > China, Tibet and the real-politick > Comments

China, Tibet and the real-politick : Comments

By Graeme Mills, published 18/3/2008

From China’s point of view Tibet has always been a part of China, so the latest protests will have little effect except to provoke a fiery breath from the Dragon.

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Some interesting historical parallels between Australia vis Britain and China vis Tibet - which for the most part are a complete waste of time. Why do people make such bizarre comparisons? Reminds me of Dylan Thomas' answer to his Cambridge Don "Thomas, what do you think of Comparative Literature? to which Thomas answered, "Compared to what?"

This is a historical 'might is right' essay and is so flawed it's almost hard to know where to start. Why didn't China expand further? US army at height of power. Nuclear attack and obliteration.

You don't need to be a 'bleeding heart liberal' to recognise and fight against invasion and cultural obliteration. I'm a bleeding heart conservative and not only is the Tibetan cause just but it's about time we started sanctioning China. People's Liberation Army - my arse. They're a weapon of the state.
Posted by Cheryl, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 9:03:46 AM
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The land that became Australia, occupied by stone-age people for 50,000 years, could hardly be called a nation, and certainly cannot be compared with Tibet.

As for the rest of the article, the author said it: “…the rest of the world couldn’t give a toss."
Posted by Mr. Right, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 9:20:21 AM
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I agree with Cheryl this story is a load of nonsence and I am Liberal Wet. Indigenous society as a human construct was not perfect, it had many flaws, but despite all of what has happened it still remains different to the european culture and has not been destroyed as the author claims.

As for never being warriors what crap, my people fought the British in the north for fifty years sucessfully and I am a direct decent of one of the chiefs who led that campaign and he was born into the warrior class.

Look I couldn't give a toss about Tibet, and as for those pesky protester's who came here to escape the communists, we accepted them and they repaid us by breaking our laws and destroying property. I think we should hand them over to the Chinese Government imediatly. Its none of our business and we should keep it that way.
Posted by Yindin, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 9:28:25 AM
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Yes, there are some flaws in Graeme's comparison, but the facts surrounding Tibet's relationship with China cannot be dismissed simply as a "might makes right stance". There is much more that could have been added in order to do justice to the complexity of the relationship. The respective functions of the Dalai Lama and the Bainqen Lama, and their relationship with China, could fill a book.

China is a lop-sided multicultural phenomenon with 95% Han, and some 50 or so other national minorities making up the rest. In a further comparison with Australia, it could be said that some of these minorities live in vast, remote (from urban centres) territories. The difference is that we are an island continent, whilst some of the major ethnic regions of China are shared through common borders with China's neighbours.

We use the word "Chinese" when we commonly mean "Han". For the Chinese, the equivalent term to "Chinese" simply means "person of the Middle Kingdom" and could equally apply to a Bai, Mongol, Naxi or Tibetan minority inhabitant of China, as well as to the Han.

It follows from this that if the argument based on the existence of a separate culture and language that is used by Westerners to advance claims for Tibetan separatism held true, then it should equally apply to Bai, Naxi Uighurs and so on, and then we may as well give up any hope of growing into social maturity through multiculturalism and revert to the primitive purity of total ethnic separation.
Posted by mike-servethepeople, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 10:08:20 AM
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There is a flaw in Graeme's reportage of the nature and rationale of monks.
Buddhism is not a religion with a heirarchical structure; rather it is a way of life, an attitude to one's existence. There is no "ruling" group, unlike many of the religions with dogma and a graded seniority structure.
In Buddhism, thought, action and behaviour is the sole responsibility of the individual, hence it is not unusual in Buddhist nations to find a desire amongst people to foster in any way possible the monks who are the teachers and guides of the "lay" folk.
To endorse Mao's perception that "Tibet was run by a lot of very rich monks, in very rich monasteries who lived off the sweat and labour of the peasants" is like saying that a football club is run by a small group of rich greedy people who live off the efforts of the underling membership to maximise the economic and social benefits of the game.

Buddhists support their monks because it is a natural thing to do; a way of helping their monks to be able to continue helping and teaching them spiritually.
Living in harmony does not mean surrendering your values, your nation and your culture merely to appease others.
Posted by Ponder, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 10:44:11 AM
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Yindin post

I agree and I apologise if my meaning was not clear. I am fully aware and acknowlege that within Australia there was definately a warrior class and that there was resistance to the British invasion.

I meant that there was no invasion of other countries
Posted by DialecticBlue, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 12:34:52 PM
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Too many passwords ..... DialecticBlue is my Blog, Graeme Mills
Posted by DialecticBlue, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 12:36:44 PM
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Some readers will appreciate the irony.

.. the tendency of every national movement is towards the formation of national states, under which these requirements of modern capitalism are best satisfied. ... the national state is typical and normal for the capitalist period. Consequently, if we want to grasp the meaning of self-determination of nations ... by examining the historico-economic conditions of the national movements, we must inevitably reach the conclusion that the self-determination of nations means the political separation of these nations from alien national bodies, and the formation of an independent national state. ...[It] would be wrong to interpret the right to self-determination as meaning anything but the right to existence as a separate state.

Lenin, The Right of Nations to Self-Determination
Posted by Lev, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 12:49:44 PM
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Just because things have happened a certain way in the past does not mean that they have to happen that way again. China has no legal or moral right to commit cultural and religious genocide. Even if their claim to Tibet was legitimate (something I would strongly question under international law) their actions cannot be condoned.
The Dalai Lama is in an impossible position. His agreement with the Indian government, necessary to ensure the safety of his fellow Tibetans, does not allow him to speak out as he would wish.
I suggest that the letter by KM Gunn in today's (Tuesday) Australian be read and acted upon. The Chinese need to be shown that their behaviour is unacceptable and re-locating the Olympics (however difficult) is about the only way that the average Chinese will even find out there is a problem in Tibet.
While we sit around saying how terrible it is and kowtowing to the Chinese things can only get worse. They can only get better if we act - but, as KM Gunn said in the letter, we are only under economic coercion and not physical violence. We should be deeply ashamed of ourselves, our greed and our failure to act.
Posted by Communicat, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 12:59:14 PM
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Yindin. I enjoyed your post. If we follow the logic of the article, we Poms brought you folk religious enlightenment, medicines, a public health system and motor cars, just like Mao and his Han Chinese did to the Tibetans, and you should be very, very grateful and it was very wrong for your people to have even considered fighting back. But I'd rather settle for a beer with you these days.

I guess the article could also support a Han Chinese claim to Vietnam, which was populated at some distant time in BC by the Viets from southern (Nam) China, and who were doing well till 232 BC or thereabouts when the Han Chinese invaded and ran the place till 939AD when the Viets kicked them out. That's 1100 years folks, and surely justifies China invading Vietnam today! After some abortive attempts by Chinese and Mongol armies to re-occupy VN in the Middle Ages, they backed off till 1978, when they took another clobbering from the Vietnamese.

Well, the Vietnam experience means that length of occupancy and arranged marriages do not an argument for colonialism make, and if the Tibetans want the Han Chinese out, maybe they should get out. However, I won't let that apply to me in Australia.
Posted by HenryVIII, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 2:58:02 PM
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I think Lenin got it right. Tibet has the right to self-determination and socialists should support that.
In fact a victory for Tibet would be a defeat for Chinese imperialism and a step forward on the road to liberation.

The Tibetans can't do that on their own. They need Han allies, and the largest and most powerful group that can overthrow the regime is Chinese workers. For Tibet to be free the resistance movement must make links to and ally with that workers movement.

Otherwise I fear that they will not learn the lssons for the future as their present leadership in Tibet and other provinces is rounded up and executed.
Posted by Passy, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 4:40:32 PM
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Don't stick your 2 cents worth with what you don't understand. Again, its religion! The world is still growing up and the best thing you can do is, keep your nose out of it. Back too our corners and sort out our own domestic problems, and that's a fact! I can see the world is loosing it. So what is the answer? Let me give you this! The harder we fight, the feeling of distances we will feel and the only thing that will come of it, that we have lost the feeling of the natural world. A bit deep for some, but we are all sick and tired of it, and that's also a fact!

To be well balance is a gift, just look thought the s-it, and we are! all bothers in arms.

A door will always open, if you let it be.
Posted by evolution, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 10:22:50 PM
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"Might may not be right...but it makes the wheels turn"

The only thing minorities can generally do, is try to give 'might' a flat tire or 2.

Unless of course, they are in a democracy and happen to be in a critical swinging electorate :) then..they can make all kinds of deals....like:

1/ Open up our immigration policy so more of 'us' can come in.
2/ Make laws which prevent people criticizing our 'us'ification of the country.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,23269447-2702,00.html?from=public_rss

3/ Seek to change our foreign policy such that 'our' mob is no longer the 'terrorist' but instead becomes the 'downtrodden freedom fighter'

As Bob Collins once said on national radio "Politics is not about being fair, its about power"

"I am the bread of life, any man who comes to me will never hunger, he who believes in me will never thirst" Jesus.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 7:44:49 AM
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Rights, realities, wrongs: and Tibet, like realities, is squeezed in between.
People can argue all day, every day, into every tomorrow about the first two, for no conclusion.
Reality is sobering, huge and overshadowing, over the wish-lists embedded in rights and wrongs. On its own, it could occupy all of the time-into-tommorrow which is being devoted to the others.
About a billion people live on either side, all living beyond the means of their environments to sustain them; nervously eyeing-off each other’s fiendish rates of growth.
Tibet is a desiccated landscape scorched by high-altitude ultra-violet sunshine; with a population still embedded in centuries-old social facilities; its natural water reservoirs of ice dwindling towards annual short feast/long famine in water availability.
Whether they like it or not, Tibetans live in interesting times as the Chinese say, and the act ofbalancing their rights and wrongs on the fulcrum of reality will become increasingly uncomfortable into the un-forseeable future</TD< tr
Posted by colinsett, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 10:24:09 AM
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Had might been right, Hitler would still be ruling Europe. China is a fascist totalitarian state, and that is something not deserving of tolerance let alone allowing them to underpay and exploit their workers so that they can flood the world with cheap, shoddy goods and damage other economies thereby, whilst polluting our atmosphere beyond sanity. All that Tibetans ask for is autonomy and respect within the Han Chinese Empire.
Posted by HenryVIII, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 10:38:41 AM
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So boycott the Olympics if they are held in Beijing. The Chinese government needs to be told that their behaviour is unacceptable. Our government needs to be told that their conciliatory-we-do-not-dare-upset-China approach has to stop.
Yes China is big. Yes it is economically powerful - sort of. (It is actually in one heck of an economic mess and would collapse were it not for the fact that they are being propped up by the likes of us.
We have to stop being afraid of China and let them know they cannot commit cultural genocide, religious persecution or any other form of human rights abuse and be rewarded for it with a major international event.
Posted by Communicat, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 1:25:56 PM
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Henry VIII, loved your post – Workers of the world unite! Or, should that be ‘Up the workers!’

The question I would like to submit first is, ‘Just what do you want China to do?’

a. Leave Tibet completely and recognise it as a sovereign nation.
b. Stay, but allow the Dalai Lama to return. If so, on what basis?
c. Stay, keep the Dalai Lama out, but stop beating up dissidents.

It boils down to either leaving or staying, it would appear. Any other ideas?

That brings me back to my cental thesis. The powerful make the rules. Real Politick.

China’s staying and most of the world will watch the Olympics on Sky TV.

China does have a historical claim over Tibet that, arguably, started in the 8th Century. Before that, Tibet as a nation did not exist.

Britain had absolutely no historical claim over Australia. Indeed, the indigenous Australians had a 50,000 year claim on the joint.

Therefore, Mao marched in with, arguably, an historical claim, Britain sailed in with absolutely no claim.

Now, wombats, who seem to want China to do something. What?

If you want the Chinese to leave Tibet then, if you have any intellectual integrity, you will give all your property to an aboriginal community and bugger off to where you or your ancestors originally came. ‘Cause you have absolutely no claim to be here on those terms.

If you just want the Chinese Government to be ‘nice’, then I think you should study the history and politics a bit more carefully, rather than trumpet the party line for Rupert & Co.

My wife submitted a reply to the other, excellent, article on Tibet that was posted today
Posted by DialecticBlue, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 1:55:09 PM
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HenryVIII
What current happening in Tibet is not a peaceful protesting. The mobs are killing innocent people. They are burning people in live. Based on this situation, I totally agree our government's decision. The mobs have to be stopped immediately. Unfortunately killing is one of the most simple and efficient way to do it. The government should not risk other people's lives in order to get good reputation.

No one likes to work underpay and be exploited. As a Chinese, I do not like to. But sometime you do not any other choice. Most of western companies are playing this dirty role in China. Our government has tried to do something like issuing new policy and labour law to change this kind of situation. The consequence is many owners of western companies choosing to run away quietly, leaving unpaid workers in a empty factory. 90% of them are Korean companies. So please........don't just blame Chinese government. they did great job in last 20 years.
Posted by NathanC, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 2:36:47 PM
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Today's reports about the Dalai Lama threatening to resign if the protest violence continues are interesting. They confirm for me that the emigre communities, as well as some people in Tibet, are coming in behind extremist factions amongst the separatist groups, factions that openly espouse the killing of Han Chinese as acts of great virtue. Would a threat by the Dalai to resign if separatist violence continues worry the Chinese authorities? I think not. It is more than likely an attempt on his part to reassert control over the separatist movement.

Incidentally, don't overlook the fact that elections in Nepal are scheduled for April 10 and that Prachanda's Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) is set to make the major gains. Is it a coincidence that some of the most violent protests by Tibetan emigres have been in Kathmandu? The CIA and the Indians have been quite active in trying to block the advances of the Maoists and to keep Nepal's fratricidal King in power - the CIA are past masters at this sort of destabilisation. You gotta love conspiracy theories....and how often they turn out to be true!

Nathan, I empathise with your love of country and agree that peaceful methods can't resolve antagonistic contradictions. However, there is an element of Han chauvinism in the mix on the part of some of those new settlers in Tibet - I've heard Han Chinese describe Tibetan Chinese as "lazy and dirty - like your Aborigines". The Party needs to deal with this as a matter of urgency.

My full comment (to date) is at http://mike-servethepeople.blogspot.com/2008/03/tibetan-issue-must-be-dealt-with.html
Posted by mike-servethepeople, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 3:01:01 PM
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UN -Resolution 1723 (XVI) Recognition of Tibet's right to self-determination
1961, the UNGA adopted Resolution 1723 (XVI), in which it explicitly recognised the right of the Tibetan people to self-determination.

The UN called on the PRC to cease "practices which deprive the Tibetan people of their fundamental human rights and freedoms, including their right to self-determination." Four years later, in 1965, the UN General Assembly expressly reaffirmed this resolution in UNGA Res. 2079 (XX).

The International Commission of Jurists' Legal Enquiry Committee on Tibet reported in its study on Tibet's legal status concluded -

"The Chinese Government cannot deny the fact that Tibet was independent between 1911 and 1951 without distorting history."

The 783 Treaty of Ch'ing-shui.
Signed following the route of the Han Chinese army, capture of the capital Ch'ing-shui (X'ian) and flight of the emperor in 763 CE. The text was recorded on three identical stone steles. One stele was placed outside the Imperial Palace in Chang'an. One on the Sino-Tibetan border on Mount Gugu Meru. The third in front of the main gate of the Jokhang Temple in Lhasa. Under the text, China clearly acknowledged Tibet and China as being two separate and Independent nations. The steles on Mount Gugu Meru and Imperial Palace in Chang'an have been removed or destroyed by the Chinese. The original in Lhasa had been recorded on numerous occasions and accurately translated. The 1186 year old stele is recognised by China and recorded as a genuine historical document, its validity recognized by the CCP. China retranslated the text to change the original intention and outcome to comply with its own rewrite of history ignoring scholars' translations and its own records.

Mongolia has more right to Tibet that China.
History shows that Tibet succumbed to the Mongol influence of Kublai Khan during the time of the Yuan Dynasty when the Mongols ruled China. The Yuan Dynasty was not Chinese, it was Mongolian.

Hard research often produces a different outcome that the fallible human memory.

Arthur Thomas
Posted by Arthur T, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 4:29:48 PM
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Communicat

To boycott Beijing Olympics would not help at all. I have been taught to learn from history since I was young in primary school. My teachers told me the history might be repeat but in different way. So we need prepare ourself always. In last 200 years, China had been forced to open. And then she was separated and occupied by different countries like UK(HK), Japan (ShanDong Province) and so on. It was just like a meat on dinner table. The fears of losing land again always exist in our heart. So we won't accept any advise or suggestion which lead to the possibility of losing our land. Since you do not have such experience, I am not sure if you can understand the feeling. About current China, I hope you can go to China and experience yourself. The Olympic games brings us lots of changes in human rights and other fields. We (all Chinese) respect this opportunity to show our progress and shortage in every field. We are glad to hear any advice which can help us getting better. But it can not be the price of losing our land.

Mike Thanks for your comments. It looks like you know China and Chinese very well. There may have an element of Han chauvinism in Tibet. It is similar in Australia (sort of). Like you mentioned in your article, many non-indigenous Australians display assumed superiority towards Aboriginal Australians. But it should not become the excuse of being independent. I agree the Party needs to deal with it urgently. Actually we have lots of special policies for those national minorities. For example the single child policy only apply to Han. The students of national minorities can get into better school/university with lower score in kind of VET exam.

All (normal) Chinese have a base-line, which is keeping our current land integrated. TW and Tibet can not become independent
Posted by NathanC, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 6:22:40 PM
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Nathan C. I no more like western, or Korean, or Japanese, or even Chinese, corporations operating the way they do in such countries as China and India than you do.It is cynical, it is greedy and China is allowing such corporations both environmental and labour subsidies that do the Chinese people and indeed the rest of us no long-term good. As always, those at the top of the economic pile collaborate with each other, of whatever nationality, to get rich and stay rich, and those at the bottom suffer. However, violence comes from frustration, and that too is a universal truth, and peole do not become violent and frustrated without due cause. Most people like a quiet life. China should do something positive about the frustrations felt by Tibetans, rather than liberating them unto death with machine guns.
Posted by HenryVIII, Thursday, 20 March 2008 1:44:49 PM
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NathanC,

There is a question which you need to answer.

Why shouldn't Tibet, or Taiwan for that matter, become independent if that is what the people of those lands want?

You say "it can not be the price of losing our land". But have you considered that's exactly what many in Tibet feel now? That they've lost their land?

I am no great fan of the Dalia Lama or the feudal theocracy that used to exist there, but I do concur with Lenin's sentiments on the rights of nations to self-determination. China does not seem to respect the ideology it professes to be aligned to.
Posted by Lev, Thursday, 20 March 2008 2:49:24 PM
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With all respect to their beleifs, by having their monesteries, the Tibetans may have found a way of a maintaining a numerically stable population, (something the Chinese seem to be unable to do in spite of "single child" policy).

What is happening in Tibet is important, whether it is considered part of China or not. If a system of government denise the ability of a large section of the community to advance socially, economically or academically, than it can cause tension or violence. (A classic case of this was the Apartheid regime in South Africa.)

The problem is that that Chinese may behave in a similar fashion elsewhere, which will likely to store up tensions that will effect everybody, and not just the Tibetans.

Incidentally, the Chinese marched into Tibet largely because of its enormous and untapped natural resources.
Posted by Istvan, Friday, 21 March 2008 6:33:36 AM
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Henry

You are right. The problems you indicated here all exist in China. It causes many problems and unclaimed harm in our future like pollution. We will pay for what we did. But the reality is cruel. The world is greedy. Money talks everywhere. Do we have anything to do? Those at the bottom have to work hard to survive. In a TV program, there is a successful business man speaking to these people. "If you want to change your life deeply, you do not think you are human being. You should treat yourself as an animal to suffer whoever can not suffer. And then you will succeed." It is really a shock to me. I could not sleep whole night and think about this question. I feel it is cruel but it is real.

Australia is a beautiful and peaceful country. Its multi-culture is attractive. Indigenous AUZ are treated well. But they are still feel frustrated. Why? If you look at them, it is hardly to find Aboriginal Australians are well educated and work in higher level. Do they have opportunities. YES!! BUT WHY?

I feel the reason is that non-indigenous Australians give too much special care to them. So it is because of themselves. Australians feel bad about what they did in past to aboriginals and give them any support and help now. But the change did not happen as you wish. They give up the opportunities and just complain about how bad their lives are, other than study and work hard in order to change.

It is same in Tibet. As I mentioned before. We have special policies for them. So I say the frustration is caused by themselves.

The last issue is you mention "rather than liberating them unto death with machine guns". In this incident, innocent people are killed by the mobs. It is not allowed anywhere in the world, even in Australia. They have to be stopped to prevent from more killing. Do you agree? So the discussion here should be whether Chinese government should use machine guns to stop the killing.
Posted by NathanC, Friday, 21 March 2008 12:03:42 PM
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Hi Lev,

I have considered your question. Be honest I do not know how to answer. If it is person to person, I should consider others and respect others' different opinion. However this question is on level of country. I believe there are more countries like China have same problem, eg. UK, Russia and Germany. They are the countries which have good human rights record (at least better than China). They even do not allow this happen in their land. So could you tell me why they are not allowed a nation to decide by themselves there. I am not a history fan so I could not talk about it here. I respect history but I am more care what we have now. The reality is TW and Tibet are in map of China. And it is recognized by all other countries.

"Lenin's sentiments on the rights of nations to self-determination" sounds right and great. I do not know in what kind of situation, he said this. And what a 'Nation' in his mention refer to. In middle-east, 'nations' are fighting for each other. The death toll increases every year. Do you support them and feel they have right for it. Extremist of a 'Nation' are making this world mess.

To All

Chinese people including its government who want to use this Olympics time to show the world its achievement in last two decade. Boycott Beijing Olympics will only push them away other than sit down to have a talk. Normal people like us here including all of you making an judgement, should look over all aspects. China need to change peacefully. So please give them time. If they have changed a bit. please give them some encourage. Your standard is not applied there right now. But they will and glad to move forward.
Posted by NathanC, Friday, 21 March 2008 12:28:50 PM
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Hi NathanC,

Yes, you are right, other countries in the world have the same issue. As you mentioned, the UK (Scotland, Wales, Ireland), Russia (Chechnya, Tatarstan) although I'm not so sure about Germany, unless the majority of Wends which to become their own country - although that is not something I have heard; and just because they have adopted a "might is right" policy over national self-determination it doesn't mean that any of us have to respect that decision as being either morally just or even political functional; although I do note that there are moves towards holding a referendum on the issue in Scotland. It would be interesting to see if China would ever consider such a thing for Tibet (at the moment, Taiwan seems quite capable of deciding for itself).

Lenin's quote is from "The Right of Nations To Self Determination" which was written in 1914. A nation is a historical culture. It is distinct from a country. For example, the Kurds are a nationality without a country, existing within Iraq, Turkey, Iran and small parts of Syria and Armenia.

Where nations are not given the right to self-determination it may reach the situation where they will attempt to establish it by force. The easiest and best solution is to allow nations the choice on whether they want to be independent or join other nationalities in a single country. There would be a lot less violence in the world if countries took that policy! But of course, politicians all seem to want to rule the biggest and most powerful country.
Posted by Lev, Friday, 21 March 2008 10:32:36 PM
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Recently, some Tibetan mobs, actually a number of organized Tibetan terrorist groups indiscriminately killing the civilians in Lhasa as well as in some other Tibetan areas. The victims also include many ethnic Tibetans. A Tibetan young girl was burned dead together with other four girls of other ethnic Chinese when the mobs surrounded their shop and burn them alive. A high school that many Tibetan children are attended was set on fire by the mobs too. Facing the bloody facts of terrorist activities, the journalists of the “free countries” that had been keen on “Anti Terrorist War” are showing their capricious reacts.

When the local police of Lhasa took actions to suppress the criminals, the western media described police action as “suppressing the demonstration” so that in their reports, the criminal mobs become demonstrators and the terrorist activities become peaceful demonstrations; and the civilians killed by the criminals all become the victims of the police suppression.

The media of the “free countries” deliberately refer the mobs as the Tibetans and refer the policemen and civilian victims as Chinese, though many policemen and the local government officials are ethnic Tibetans, and the civilian victims of the riots include Tibetans, Muslims, Hans and many other religious and ethnic Chinese. At the end, the event of the terrorists indiscriminately killing the civilians is deliberately worded as the conflict between ethnic Tibetan and other ethnics of Chinese.

The media of free countries are taking advantage of ignorance of the most audiences about Tibet so as to spread the biased publicity in favor of the Tibetan terrorists. That is why we can see some western newspapers “mistakenly” use the pictures of clashes between Tibetan demonstrators and Nepal police to describe that the Tibetan demonstrators are beaten by Chinese police, and we can also see many western newspapers “carelessly” ignored the fact that the Tibetan high school was set on fire and the Tibetan girls were killed, and described the criminals as “demonstrators.”
Posted by Centra, Saturday, 22 March 2008 8:49:09 AM
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Centra,

Atrocities occur in situations like this; Tibetans attack innocent Han migrants, the Chinese government shoots innocent protesters (http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/2008/03/21/1205602660907.html).
It says a great deal that China has just now expelled the last foreign journalist known to be in Lhasa, Germany's Georg Blume.

It is ultimately impossible in these modern times for a country to force a nationality to live within their borders if they don't want to. This is a lesson that is equally relevant for the Basque in Spain, the East Timorese, the Québécois in Canada or the Tibetans.

There is a simple solution; let the Tibetans decide, by vote, whether they want to be part of China or not.
Posted by Lev, Saturday, 22 March 2008 9:48:56 AM
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Sorry, Lev, but I do not think it is quite that simple at all.

The reality is that no leader in China could possibly support such a vote, it would be political suicide. No leader is going to risk leaving such a legacy.

I am really heartened that On-Line is addressing this complex issue and fostering debate and discussion. I, for one, have not only learned a lot, but have had to question my assumptions and how I arrived at them on this issue.

If the western press opened their minds a little and did not just regurgitate the same old, same old, then maybe China wouldn’t be so wary of them.
Posted by DialecticBlue, Saturday, 22 March 2008 11:13:17 AM
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Riot in Tibet: True face of western media

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
Posted by Centra, Saturday, 22 March 2008 11:22:09 AM
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DialecticBlue,

If Chinese leaders lack the the moral fibre or conviction in their professed Leninist ideology, to call such a referendum then that says a great deal about their system of government and the indivdiuals in control. Perhaps it would be nice if the "western press" was able to "open their minds" a little, but unfortunately none are allowed in Tibet at the moment. It would be nice if the Chinese government would, for example, open the archives so we can officially count the estimated 170,000 Tibetans who died in forced labor camps from 1951 to 1976. I guess that would be "political suicide" as well. But then again, I prefer a politician to suffer such "suicide" if that is the means for the people to actually have the power to determine their own lives.

Centra,

Nice video clip. I approve thoroughly of any analysis which shows how media, whether privately owned or state-owned, engaged in falsehoods. I am not so sure however that the official media of the PRC has never doctored photos, texts of movies either. Just as well there is a free press like YouTube that allows such distortions to be captured, eh? It'd be great if independent journalists were actually allowed in Tibet to report on what is really going on, wouldn't it?
Posted by Lev, Sunday, 23 March 2008 8:54:20 AM
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I have an interesting story for you.

Once I went into a second-hand bookshop near Southbank, Brisbane. In one of the aisles, there happened to be piles upon piles of books stacked up on the floor about Australian indigenous culture - history, bush tucker, mythology, politics, and so on.

I asked the person in charge of the shop about them, as it seemed a little bit unusual.

'Oh,' he said, 'a prominent Aboriginal leader and academic just got rid of his entire collection of books on Australian Aboriginal culture'.

'Why?' I asked.

'He went and became a Tibetan Buddhist'.
Posted by Dr. Livingstone, Sunday, 23 March 2008 9:10:54 PM
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Some important background...

>>China, through its eyes, did not invade, it liberated an oppressed people. Indeed, the average Tibetan welcomed the Red Army at first. <<from Graeme Mills "China, Tibet and the real-politick"

It is! Initially, DaLai LaMa also accepted a position in the communist central government in 1950-51. Tibetan uprising and DaLai LaMa exile was 9 years later.

China did make a serious mistake in internal affair during late 1950s. But there was another important factor.

That is Korean War. US and China had a direct FIERCE combat. ANYTHING moving in Chinese force controlled area became the target of US fighter-bomber, no matter it was military or civil. Some 90% Chinese truck drivers were killed by bomb. Think about this, CIA could do a great job when US force was helping Iraqis Democracies. What could prevent CIA from doing a dirty job on Tibet issue when nuclear bombing China was considering.

Another episode:
China didn't play a tough ball with current DaLai LaMa himself. When uprising fight broke out, Chinese army didn't harm him when DaLai LaMa within gunshot, also didn't chase him when he fled.

Tibet is just another hot area of global powers struggle, and Tibetans are not beneficiary of the struggle..
Posted by Centra, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 9:49:02 PM
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