Howard is only practising what he has preached since he was in the Young Liberals, he hates working people, and as he is about to retire on Lord knows how much superanuation, he expects the low income worker to work on the minimum wage or less. Very difficult to survive on especially if you have children to feed clothe and educate, millionaire enconomists who back these reforms have no idea what it's like to live in our world

SHONGA
I feel your post is plain irresponsible. I seriously doubt that J.H. 'hates' working people.. in the same way that Kim Beasly is hardly likely to 'hate' Employers. Your post sound childish, emotive and simply appears to be either sour grapes or pushing an agenda.

What I find sad about your post and many others like it, is the abject lack of recognition of the reality of the competitive world we live in now.

All you can see is "I want a better deal". You neglect the FRAMEWORK in which a better deal can be achieved.

Lets cut to the chase. Many of the existing IR conditions which are so loosely called 'workers rights' are in fact the gains made by unions led by people who gained their positions on unsustainable promises of better conditions who only promised thus to gain power and perhaps their $100k packages ? I would love to know the Salary of various Union organizers and officials.

Even more sad, that those promises were predicated on the greed of people.. I'm sure there were many who could see how such things as $20/hour for process work my son currently gets are not sustainable in the auto industry, but they would have been howled down by those who could just see the money, rather than a longer term employment.

Knowing what I do about Accountants in the auto industry, how long do you think it will be before labor rates like that are seen for what they are... making the 'cost of sales' too high and the product less competitive.

When the product is less competitive, less people buy it, they buy a different one, and then...what happens to the jobs ? well then we start hearing about 'downsizing/consolidation/redunancies' etc etc..

Are you following me here ? I sure hope so, because if not, you will wake up one day and suddenly there will be no job, no money and no life.. and your eyes will glaze over as you realize there is not squat you or anyone else can do about it.

P.S... I absolutely do take your point about Mr Howards retirement package and the same goes for the obscene salary packages of the 'MBA' CEO's who can't wait to put all their 'outsourcing to Asia' lessons into practice, and 'cut costs'.

They are especially desirous of doing so because a better bottom line means a chunkier bonus.. again.. greed.

So, the truth is, most of our industrial relations at both ends of the spectrum, are characterized by GREEEEEED.

Its shameful, disgusting and outrageous.

A CALL TO REPENTANCE.

I would go so far as to describe the Salary packages of CEO's and the manipulation to 'keep power' of Unions as 'sin'. And there is just ONE solution to 'sin' .. its repentance.

Greed and 'me me me-ism' has now almost completely overtaken our national character, its time we put it right, and turned around.

No offense intended with my other post, I'm just telling it like it appears, with honesty.

Boaz, you seem to be quite bitterly against the idea of set minimum conditions. You seem to be arguing across several threads that because people in developing countries are happy with less, that we should be too. Surely our efforts would be better put into raising standards with other people, rather than bringing our own down?

Perhaps as an employer you are generous and flexible with your staff, but the fact of the matter is that many are not. Minimum conditions are there to prevent a race to the bottom. We cannot compete with wage costs with China and India, as you have pointed out many times. But nor should we try.

These reforms seem determined to, long term, erase even the idea that people at the bottom of the heap deserve certain standards.

I can see from the employer's perspective, especially in a small business, that during downtimes it must be difficult to justify why you have people doing 'busywork', and taking up your take-home profits. But making everyone casualised (and as a casual worker for six years I know that has more disadvantages than benefits), or insecure in their positions hardly promotes a productive workforce.

People are hardly going to be dedicated to a company when they know that they can be made redundant at any time.

I have recently re-read "Life and Work" by Charles Birch and David Paul. I recommend it to all- it highlights that people genuinely give more to their employers when they feel they are valued, both by their pay and their conditions, and shows that productivity actually drops when people are worried and feel uncertain about their conditions.

I fail to see, in light of this, and the very dubious economic arguments around these new laws, that the government is proposing anything that will aid our society. For all their talk about supporting Australian values in schools etc, they are undermining Aussie 'long weekend barbeque' culture even more.

Boaz writes "Knowing what I do about Accountants in the auto industry, how long do you think it will be before labor rates like that are seen for what they are... making the 'cost of sales' too high and the product less competitive.

When the product is less competitive, less people buy it, they buy a different one, and then...what happens to the jobs ? well then we start hearing about 'downsizing/consolidation/redunancies' etc etc.."

Labour rates seem to be the focus and excuse used to downsize etc... I also see lack of innovation (creating new products) and the inability to come up with value adds (if you can't beat them on price, beat them on value for money) as contributors to downsizing etc...

To my way of thinking if we had more clever people in business there would be no talk of job loss and downsizing etc...

Perhaps we stand a better chance of long term sustained growth if the idiots went bust.

Valerie

David, Boaz, I appreciate your honesty, but our family lives on $350.00 per week, below the poverty line, not even the minimum wage, so if I sound a bit bitter, it is only because I am. I find it strange to say the least how the same companies who howl poor when the average working person asks for a pay rise, and a few months later gives the C.E.O. A PAY RISE, C.E.O.'s of Australia's top 30 companies have had a 44% increase this year alone. And the workers organisations the Unions cop stick for asking for $20.00 per week, or 3% increase, come on David, you know and I know that it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God, than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. John Howard has always "hated" the working class, always has wanted to break working people industrial organisations, have you noticed an attack from him on the employers industrial organisations e.g. Australian Business Limited, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the AMA, NO, AND YOU NEVER WILL. You may nbe a small business person David, and that can be a hard road also, I don't deny that, however working people have only one comodity to sell, their labour, and of course we want the most we can get for it, to feed our children, clothe our children, and educate our children. We would also like to work to live, not live to work, because we {as strange as it may seem} like to spend time with our family, as a family, take us out of the family to work all the time, and soon you have a social promlem of youth roaming the streets, getting up to mischief, I don't want that David, and I dare say you don't want that, so let's calm down a little, everybody knows that John Howard has always done the bidding of big business, it's no secret, only to the ignorant, who don't want to know, of course pro big business means anti worker.

Individual contracts are about divide and conquer philosophies which have been practised for hundreds of years.

I believe in IR reform but no this particular type.People should be able to be sacked more easily for good reasons.This is not the way we should compete with India and China.They have such a large pool of poor cheap labour that we will never see the lowest living standards reach anywhere near ours.Once we establish this underclass of poverty ,we will have it forever.It will be a welcome to walled cities,guard dogs,crime and hopelessness of South America.

I have backed John Howard on many things,but not on individual contracts which prey on the vunerable.

All this for and against the IR reform,does give one a reason,to ask just one question,why is it needed? I am not an expert on the this,but having had years of experience,as a person that grew up in the wholesale and retail business owned by my family,the main factor behind the success of my fathers business was the way he treated his workers,and their needs,as he used to say,to his sons,if we need the things to exist,"FOOD",so what we need they his workers need is to have the means to obtain that,and that was a decent wage,and good working conditions,and we had no problems,what John Howard and his minister Kevin Andrews wants is plain and simple,not the interest and welfare of the workers,but for greed and profit,at the expense of the workers,the for IR may argue,about reasons for change,but the fact is plain and simple,workers need changes,for still more better working conditions and a fairer wage structure,but this legislation,is so drafted to insure that they will,be at the mercy of management,take it or

It really would be a good idea for some people such as David Boaz to consider the points raised by people like Saul Eslake and Fred Argy. Businesses and their owners have obligations to their employees, to the community in which they operate and to the future. The only people who refuse to recognise that are the devotees of the Chicago school of Milton Friedman and other neoliberals. And look at what a great future these people have delivered.

David Boaz seems to begrudge his son a decent wage.David ;listen carefully, we are not going broke. $55m plus on a dishonest campaign should clue u in on that. How much on the war on terror? It is about priorities. My priority is a decent future for your son. Your support for Howard(he does hate workers) leaves us looking at the riots in France.Downward envy is a shocking thing, a terrible disease of the aspirationals. $100,000 per annum Union Officials, as they said in the 'Castle" "your dreaming".

An American multinational's mission statement says "We are in business to make a profit in a socially acceptable manner". All clear on this?
This company runs massive education programs to keep public sentiment on its side and keeps its SNAFUs out of the paper.

Our part of the bargain as a society is to set the ground rules within which corporations can operate. In the last 30 years Australian policy has been dictated to government by the multinationals not society setting limits on corporate behaviour. Time to WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!!

SILCRAFT a component manufacturer laid off 400 workers last night because General Motors is going to source components from China.

All readers of this forum are aware that General Motors was invited to set up in Australia in 1945 with Australian money raised through debentures and guaranteed by the Australian government. Ming returned ownership to Detroit.
Clearly Australia needs to develop policies that provide sustainable prosperous future for ALL Australians not just the Prime Ministers crony's.
[Should ban all cricket tragics from prime ministership!]

Des Griffin, I agree with you mate, but sadly Telstra and Quantas don't see an obligation to the community as between them they have exported nearly 10,000 Australian jobs, to India and overseas. I have no quarell with the Indians or any other nationality for that matter, however I do believe Australian companies, especially the icons, should employ Australians only, as the majority of their profits come from the Australian community, and employ us at a fair rate of pay, not John {Bonsai} Howard's IR plan, Bonsai, is a little bush.

Hedgehog....mate..
I don't begrudge my son a good rate... I'm overjoyed for his sake, but given SILCRAFT... my pessemism(realism) about 'overseas outsourcing' is quite well founded.

SHONGA
your response is appreciated. I feel for you mate, $350 a week totally sucks. Why so low ? thats a rate of around $9.20/hr is that your take home pay or gross ?
Why do you stay at that place ? Do you have access to public transport ? I can guarantee, on the Eastern Melbourne Suburbs, $15.50 is just about the lowest. Where are u ?

Do you smoke ? Drink ? if you do, turf them mate.. a total waste, and immediate income boost. Do you have a Lawn mower ? If u do, then zip out to new factory areas, do a letter box drop offering to mow their lawns, you could get 2 or 3 factories, fill in a Saturday at more like $25-30/hour. Then, contract cleaning.. also good money ask some factories.. knock on doors mate... Minimum outlay. Can/does your wife work ? Look around for 'work from home' stuff. My wife used to do that, wound 9000 little coils by hand for NEC $0.14C each.

Because you mentioned a bible verse, (camel/eye of needle) I want to share one with you also if I may:

Hebrews 10
<<22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, ....23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. .... but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.>>

Emphasis on verse 24 Stir one another up to good deeds... and to good work opportunities :) which is what I've tried to do.

Please don't be 'bitter' that will eat away at you. Turn that emotion around, and make it passion and drive to forge ahead by yourself, on your own terms as much as possible. It doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen.

David_boaz: For you especially, I'll refer to my other post...

>>The country as a whole is failing to see the more sinister reasons for the changes. They are...

1. If the Liberals can weaken the unions to the point where they are almost non-existant, then the ALP will lose most of it's funding, particularly at election time and we are then likely to become a one party country with no real alternative. We can then kiss our democracy good-bye and say hello to facism.

2. It's the perfect opportunity for Howard to hit the working class where it hurts. Something he has wanted to do for a long time to a demographic that he has nothing but utter contempt for. He has even been known to say "Give 'em f---ing nothing" when referring to the working class while drinking wine with friends and cronies at Kiribilli house.<<

But if we're going to bring religion into this then...

Didn't Jesus preach that we should look after the less fortunate?

After seeing what Christians such as Howard, the entire Bush administration and the evil, war mongering Christian Right in America are capable of, I seriously question the Christian beliefs I was so strictly brought up with. Christianity now seems to be synonymous with wealth and greed as you have demonstrated in your posts (along with the "Christians" listed above).

Yes there is need for reform but what this sick government has proposed is cruel and extreme.

But then again, if this country is willing to give a right-wing government an overwhelming majority in parliment, then the lower classes have to expect to lose their rights and lower their standard of living.

It's like the saying goes: "Counties get the government they deserve"; and saying: "But this isn't what we voted for" isn't an excuse either. We had had 8 years to learn what a pathological liar this cruel and heartless crook of a Prime Minister was before we voted him back in, but no - everyone had to stick with the evil they knew and now the least-fortunate-in-life will pay for it.

Unfortunately, the new wage fixing authority will in all probability use divine guidance, rather than the CPI to determine the rate of increase of minimum wages in the future. Given the fact that declining residential property sales are a key indicator that recession could be imminent, this poses some serious problems.

I do realise that a lot of people think that a decline in the Sydney market, will only affect those directly connected to the Sydney market, however given the fact that almost half of the sales in my local, non-Sydney, non-declining market, were by investors from Sydney, I suggest that any serious decline in that market will affect the whole of Australia.

Coupled with this is the almost exponential rise in the pump price of petroleum products. It has been suggested that this will have a neglible affect on consumer spending and inflation. This appears to be contradicted by the latest data, and also data from the 1970's oil embargo, which led to double digit inflation in the 70's.

I therefore suggest that we are at serious risk of entering a recession in the foreseeable future, however for the first time we are doing it with a totally unproven, religiously inspired wage setting body. This does not exactly present the competent, confident, professional formula that one expects in such a body. Perhaps Cardinal Pell will be interested in assuming governance fo the Reserve Bank.

Each of us has taken a different path in life and my bank balance has only changed as a result of wages my hands time and personal efforts gave me.
Unions have always been part of that and my membership was always a thing I was happy with.
The last thing I ever thought would happen is that an Australian goverment would wish to distroy that movement.
Yes some slugs exist in the union movement, some are non performers and should go.
Some used standover tactics that shamed the movement and focused Howards rath on us all.
And some even helped Howard win the power to slash and burn the work of past generations who built the union movement.
I am poorly educated and claim no great inner knowledge others do not have, but unionism will not die!, this is the real chance to grow.
Slugs will fall from the tree a new vital understanding unionism will be there after the conservatives are again a minority.
I admite I have the honour to be a union official, and it is an honour.
Those who can not command the trust and respect of both members they serve and most bosses they work with let the movement down.
This reform will change goverment in Australia and mark Howard down in history as a man who miss used his majority.

Thanks to Des Griffin for summarising the concerns that many of us feel about this ideologically-driven legislative adventure being foisted upon us all by the government that this electorate deserves.

I'm not sure whether this belongs in this thread or one of the others on this topic, but in all the commentary and analysis on the IR legislation, I haven't yet seen raised what seems to me to be a critical flaw in the Howard government's efforts to reduce wages and conditions and job security. Now I'm not an economist's bootlace, but as a small business owner I understand that a major component in Australia's economic performance in the past decade or so has been the massive extension of credit to consumers in the retail and housing sectors. While various pundits occasionally raise concerns about the burgeoning levels of personal debt, there is little doubt that easy access to credit cards and mortgages has been driving demand in the retail sector and housing market.

A prerequisite for the extension of credit and mortgage loans to individuals is stability and security of employment, and the financial ability to service debts. Surely these IR reforms can only reduce the ability of most workers to meet these criteria, with the inevitable result that the economy will move into recession?

Quite right Mahatma Duck!

You can only get a low-doc mortgage when you are working on contract.
See Aaron's post that mentions house sales in his local area.

About employment contracts, I have worked in an industry when people working on contract is the norm. There are stories of good contractors rolling from contract to contract, but if you watch contractor behaviour carefully you realise that many of them spend months between contracts. This can be discerned by their eagerness for more hours - if paid an hourly rate, the phone calls to organise tradesmen for home improvements and their timeless conservative dress.

In my experience of being on contracts for 15+ years there is a great deal of insecurity and this isn't good for health as I broke out in psoraisis annually at contract renewal time, family life was disrupted at Christmas as you wait for contract renewal and the thought of having children in that insecurity is unthinkable.

I have taken out 2 mortgages on property when I have been in permanent positions.

David,Boaz, thank you for your kind words, unfortuneatly I am on a part disability pension, my wife works 15 hours per week. My last job, I held for 21 years, it was 21 years of continual imtimidation, emotianal blackmail, unpaid overtime, 12-13 hour days,huge workload, no breaks for much of the 21 years. I had a mortage, so not wanting to lose my job, I percivered, however after 2 nervous breakdowns, the second flattened me, it took 9 months for me to be able to get out of bed, and I now have chronic major depression, generalised anxiety disorder, chronic fatigue syndrome and many phobia's for example OCD {OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE DISORDER} and agrophobia { fear of open spaces} and professional legal psychiarists have told me that I'll never work again, trouble is I have a 6 y.o. daughter to support, and cannot. David you may be a good employer, however not all are, and my experience has left me bitter, because I want to work, but can't thanks to an unscrupulous employer.I would not be the only case in Australia.

Dear Shonga
the only thing I can do mate is encourage you :)
I do appreciate your position.. can I suggest something ?

I don't know if you have any Church involvement, and I do know there are many 'Churches' where even I don't fit, but there are many also where a person in your situation could experience great encouragement, and quite possibly opportunities for extra work of a non threatening nature. But, more than anything, (this might seem simplistic, but its not) a relationship with God through Christ will make a vast difference. If you have difficulties with believing in Christ, I surely cannot change that, I can merely testify of the change in my own life and be a signpost.
Nothing can change the definitely bitter past you endured, but 'you' can change :) and be changed. Sounds like there is significant psychological scarring, and that won't heal overnight.

Let me leave you these words from Paul (IICorinthians4)

7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.

I've not been able to give my firstborn son a 21st, or an 18th, nor my daughter an 18th, was able to help a bit with 21st, have rarely been able to buy clothes over the past 3 yrs, we've lived from the Salvos on that score :) and I feel it acutely. But I told them our land will bless them muchhh more that those things, and they understand. (I'm asset rich/cash poor)

Hang in :)

David, I am a Christian, I am Catholic, and I appreciate your advice, I may not have explained myself properly. I have a short attentsion span now, cannot concerntrate on anything for any length of time, which is why I am so bitter. My previous employeer took my ability to work, and support my family, and this exploitation goes on in many workplaces, obviously not yours, thank goodness, we also have lived at the SALVO'S, LIFELINE, ST VINCENT DePAUL'S ECT for clothing, and we own our own home, so things could be a lot worse. I don't feel sorry for myself, I feel sorry for my daughter, because the guilt I feel for my medical condition is great. I won't be able to give her the education that I had planned to, with is why I am highlighting the increased power to employers, because what was done to me was done under existing law. There are many unscrupulous employers out there that do this type of thing to their employees, and they will now do what every business, indeed most households do, decrease their costs, at the expense of their employees. The tragity is that decent hard working employers such as yourself will be forced to follow their lead, just to compete, and stay in business, which is why I am against the new IR laws, I am not against business in general, or indeed employers in general, but this law does not discriminate against good/bad employers David. Which leaves vunerable employees at the mercy of some bad employers, which I believe is not fair, Jesus fought the authorities of that time, and was crusified for it, it seems to me that Jesus paid for the sins of mankind, so we do not need to crusify ordinary employees, especially the low paid, already struggling to survive, I note that the churches have all come out opposing these laws for good reason. Once again thank you for your kind words, and encouragement, they are much appreciated, may God bless, Regards,Shaun

We are too consumed with reducing tariffs at all costs.I don't care if I have to pay a few cents more for fruit, veg and meat,we have an extremely efficient primary industry.Food is cheap here anyway.

I think we should select certain industries to protect and thus maintain employment here,since to a certain degree the wages gap between China and Australia will narrow.What is the point of having super cheap products if no one has a job here to be able to afford them?

I find this globalisation push very sinister.Every time a small business is forced to shut because of cheap imports,it puts the business into the hands of those with lots of capital.It actually limits competition.Those with capital have more bargining power,they can buy cheaper and with fewer competitors sell at a higher price.Notice how Coles and Wollies are driving their competitors from the market.

We will eventually have a situation whereby it will be almost impossible for individuals to rise from nothing to wealth.Dick Smith recently said he would not achieve his wealth in todays climate.

Are we to have a nation of subjugated drones,working for multi nationals?

I don't think this has been carefully thought out and is driven by ideology and the power of multi nationals.

The Labor Party had better wake up to themselves since even though the Coalition are good at economic management,I don't think they are looking for what's good for our economic and social soul,since the two are inextricably linked.We still believe in a fair go for all.

Arjay, I couldn't agree more with your post, sadly it's the Liberal Party who promote this ideology of globalisation, and follow like sheep, the lead they seem to think the USA is giving them. However the USA farm lobby is a powerfull one,and subsidy still applies to the agri-industry there, which is akin to socialism rather than capitalism, but the Australian Party whose responsibility it is to represent our farmers, the National Party seems to be completely dominated by their coalition partner, to the extent they sell rural and regional areas short, repeatedly, which to me is annoying, because rural people especially are some of the nicest people you could ever wish to meet, and with extremes in wheather to contend with, they need all the help they can get, which should be forthcoming, from their elected representitives, and sadly in the majority of cases is not, instead the Liberal's economic rathonalism policies prevail. I am very disillusioned with Australian politics at the moment, it was clearer in the old days, when each party, didn't seem to merge with their friends and foe's.

Yes Shonga,I've been a passionate backer of the coalition in the last two elections but this issue of IR reforms,tariffs, dominance of multi-nationals through globalisation is an enormous issue.

I'm now thinking the impossible, at the next election I will vote the weak kneed,socialist,incompetent economic vandals in once again just to stop or delay this stupidity.

John Howard is playing the usual sneaky agenda and will offer us a more palitable option and still achieve his objective.

There has been no open debate on these issues and this is not democracy!Can we give Labor a brain and courage transplant?

Arjay - I agree with your previous 2 posts as well. Having watched John Howard's career evolve over the years I am dismayed that my worst predictions are being realised.

Who is the alternative? Labor has forgotten its roots. The greens are too ideological, the democrats are next to pointless.

Even with Howard voted out - how will the IR 'reforms' be rolled back? I don't want to continue with my line of reasoning here, simply because it is too depressing and I suffer from that enough already.

I will hope that a leader of conscience will emerge - sooner rather than later.

Arjay/Scout, I agree with you that Labor has lost it's sense of how it came into being, I will be voting Labor at the next election, not because I think they are the best party for the job, but simply at the moment, they appear to be the best, of the worst, what a sad time in Australian Federal politics, when in my humble opinion, this is the case, but whatever I do, I won't vote Liberal in the Senate, and perhaps not Labor either, as I think we have all seen what happens to political parties, when given too much power, the problem I now face is who to vote for in the Senate?

Dear Shonga
please don't resign yourself to your condition as a fate acompli mate..
It didn't happen over night, and rehabilitation will also not happen over night.

To be honest, your experience sounds like you have had the emotional stuffing knocked out of you.. I confess also, that "purchasing officer" would not be my choice of work :) I would alllways be panicking that "production is halted because such and such a part has not arrived" and ur damned no matter what you do because even if the couriers lost it..."its your fault"...sound familiar ? :)

I still suggest you take small steps.. not big ones.. into gradually reclaiming 'you' and your self esteem. I'm sure you have a valuable knowledge base in your head, and some honest reflection might encourage you to think better about yourself. I mean.. you would know you have runs on the board.

Sometimes we just need someone to encourage us.. I mean..I feel awful about not at this time being able to give my kids a good 18th etc.. or that they are embarassed to bring friends to "our place" with our fridge that we continually re-freeze the water in containers to keep the bottom half cold.. :) its all good.

I'm constantly reminding them that its MUCH better to go from rags to 'something better' than the other way round. They will be richer people inside because of things they have learned.

Philippians 4
10I rejoice greatly in the Lord that at last you have renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you have been concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13I can do everything through him who gives me strength.

Key word "Through Him" :)

Dear David,
Of course you are correct, if you look at the start of this page, we began enemies, and by the end, we have become friends, of course we will not agree on everything, however I now, after dialogue, consider you to be a man of good heart, and sound mind, and I regard you more as a friend, and fellow traveller, fellow Christian, and a man of principal, who, like myself is not afraid to air his opinion strongly. It is the great attribute of humanity, communication. Sadly I insulted Leigh,Sage and another person on a differnt page, and cannot find the page to apologise to them, so I hope they read this post, and accept my apology, I was angry because of their comments, as I am a very compassionate person, and their comments seemed to lack compassion to me on that day. David yes that situation is very familiar to me, I was abused by customers sometimes for lack of deliveries, that I had tried my best to make sure were delivered, unfortunately we all have to rely on members of the team to play their part, and not all do, I felt a personal obligation to each and every customer, so much so, it would keep me awake at night wondering if what I had done through the day, had been backed up by storemen and packers, frieght companies ect... You seem to understand very well what my position entailed, I honestly do appreciate, your kind words, and encouragement, and look forward to reading many more of your posts, may God bless David, Regards,Shaun

Des Griffin I will agree,our problem in australia is that there are some people that believe in the pied piper,and will follow him at all times,many read the daily liar,and as normal pro howard,but the signs are clear that it will come to that.I know of a clothing company,that sold out to an asian country,and some of their best workers got the boot,as they supported the union movement,though none were members,one young man was retained,given a rise,the firm moved from one location to another,this young man now has much further to travel,by taxi bus and train,he used to get home at 5.30 pm,but now he has to do more work,and now gets home at around 7.10pm,the family used to wait for him before they had their evening meal,now his mum has to keep his food warm,it is double work for her,and misses him at the evening meal,but he has no alternative,but to work overtime,without overtime rates,so it is not only him coming home late,but the whole family is inconvienced,I SUPPOSE there are many families now in the same boat,this is where howard is taking us,down the road of no return.

Yesterday Peter Costello told us the economy was in the best shape for a long while.
This on top of the BCA crying out our need to slash wages and conditions to just stay in the market.
This IR reform is a LIE its intent is to improve profits by reduceing Australian liveing standards.
It divides us and forever proves the lie that Howard cares for battlers in fact heartlessly the man creats them.
Only the removal of this goverment can repair real damage to fairness in the workplace.