If Audrey (Boys are made of Slime and Snails) Apple does not like Australia, then she could always leave.

No tanks have ever rumbled down these streets, and Australia is one of very few countries to never have a civil war.

It is almost impossible to starve in this country, and Australia is rated in number 3 position on the United Nations Human Development Index (out of about 173 countries).

So if Audrey Apple does not like any of this, she can always leave.

Are you illiterate HRS or was that just a pisstake? She didn't say she didn't like Australia. . She said she didn't like it being defined in a way that excluded the bulk of the population. Your thoughtless response, unforunately, proves her point - Australia's newly self-conscious nationalism is ridden by ugly red-necked exclusionists whose concept of the national character is stuck in some mythical 1950s Chips Rafferty mindset. Your problem is that John Howard has gone. Your chief sponsor has left the building and your attempts to use the national day as a wedge to exercise your mean-spirited prejuidices will not be tolerated.

Mr Denmore,
You could always leave as well, and you are free to do so.

And you could always take Audrey (Boys are made of Slime and Snails) along with you.

You WERE joking. Sorry, I thought you were serious

Mmm. Indeed. The first post on this thread seems to be more of a polemic against Ms Apple than any kind of comment on the article.

I must concur with the central message here - I don't identify with the image that is most consistently identified as 'Australian.'

The blue-singlet-wearing-sheep-shearing-beer-drinking-chuck-a-prawn-on-the-barbie-holden-driver-with-an-akubra-and-cattledog certainly does exist, and of course, he's as Australian as anyone else.

But I don't think it's fair that this image is appropriated as the image for all of us - it works for the many people out there who fit a number of these boxes, but plenty of people don't.
Sure, I like my beer and I don't mind a prawn on the barbie and I've nothing against Holdens. That being said, I don't fit the rest.

What bothers me, I guess, is when the term 'Un-Australian' is trotted out. It's crap. I'm going to say right now, that using the term 'Un-Australian' is 'Un-Australian.'

So as far as the comment 'If you don't like it, leave' goes, it's crap, and it's trotted out far too often.

Logically, anyone who says this, will be the first people to abandon the country if it does run into hard times. When they don't like it, they'll leave.

The same excuse it trotted out in the US. If you ever expressed concern about the dumb decisions made by their government regarding international wars, you must be some kind of US-hating pinko, instead of a patriot.

Me, I'm more devoted to Australia than that.
If something's wrong, I try to fix it, instead of draping myself in a flag and being manipulated by jingoistic pap while exhorting the people who are expressing themselves to leave.

I mean, HRS, how's this sound:

Don't like the supposed feminist conspiracy in this country?

Then leave.

TurnRightThenLeft, beautifully put.

HRS, your obsession with Audrey's banner from her blogsite continues to make you look bad. Get over it, you have made your point, time to move on.

R0bert

For starters, who’s going to take notice of someone who proudly admits to killing thousands of brain cells with cheap plonk.

“Alcohol is invariably involved”

What a moron!

Audrey has correctly identified over-consumption of alcohol as being a notable feature of life in Australia. Of course there are individual exceptions, but the figures about per-capita booze consumption don't lie, and ours is amongst the highest in the world, if not the highest.

By Leigh's definition, this would make Australians all "morons" - but as HRS is here to remind us, if Leigh doesn't like the place, he can always leave.

Oh, HRS, I keep meaning to ask you - what do you think of the theory that boys are made of slime and snails?

BTW, if you're ever stuck trying to explain the Australian sense of humour to anybody, you should tell them about the Harold Holt memorial swimming pool in Melbourne's suburb of Malvern...

I love Australia and have no intention of leaving. However, throughout my life I have had it made to clear to me that I am not really True Blue, for the following reasons:

I am a woman
I am not married and do not have children
I don't drink alcohol of any description (especially beer)
I don't eat meat of any description
I am an atheist

When this country can accept all of the above, and many more things, as normal and part of a healthy diversity, then we will all be better off.
But what the hell, I will still have heaps of fun on Australia Day. I just won't be getting rat-arsed.

If you wish to stop HRS being boring don't indulge him and 'Bite'.

You give children attention for positive behaviour, and ignore bad behaviour.

I'm sure the French don't all like to wear Berets and ride bicycles with Baguettes in a basket either. Who cares, this is such a non-issue.

Apart from Little Johnny's nationalistic abuse of Un-Australian to silence dissent. But he's gone now.

As for Mateship. I always thought it was funny that only Australians had friends, or that Australian friends were closer than friends of other nationalities, but Audrey neglects to mention girls call each other mates as well. That really surprises me Audrey turning something into a feminist issue.

' is constructed to exclude women'. Ah I remember those secret meetings of the patriarchy conviened to contrive words to exclude the women.

And being a 'mere male' I cant really see the jibes at Helen Clarke as being an attempt to denigrate her achievements 'as a woman'.

I think most people's objections (apart from feminist Audrey) to do with the stereotyped Australian are really to do with class (i.e. Bogan hating), rather than being excluded from some 'National Identity'.

We don't need to define an identity. We have one. The stereotype is different to the Identity. Our Identity isn't threatened by stereotypes any more than any other country. It's only the people who confuse the two or have a political motivation to deliberately confuse the two to make a point (Audrey included) that have this need to define Australia or Australian Values.

It is interesting that we still have this discussion on Australian identity in 2008. I'm also from Adelaide like Ms. Apple and I believe we South Australians have a well developed sense of inferiority. We constantly have the need to have our poorly developed egos stroked at every opportunity. As Australians we are in a constant state of evolution and the last 100 years has witnessed unprecedented social change. However, with this change comes a clouded sense of who we really are. Listen to a young Australian in conversation today and they sound nothing like their parents or grandparents.
Both the left and right have attempted to hijack this discussion in the past and the truth lies somewhere in between. The mainstream media will have you believe the John Howard version of Australian identity but tap into the thoughts of left commentators like Phillip Adams and you find a deconstruction of our identity that often leaves a very negative image of our country.
Yes we have poorly educated mullet headed bogans who think being an Australian is drinking copious amounts of alcohol whilst signing "Aussie, Aussie OI OI OI".
But we also have condescending, latte sipping, tofu munching academics who wish to take a moral higher ground. That is what makes our country truly great, diversity. The large urban sprawl of our major cities which incorporate 95% of our populations generally means that these two groups normally would not come into contact with each other.
So as Ms. Apple sits in the backyard of her inner eastern city turn of the century house she will be assured that she will not have to confront the blue singlet masculine Australian that she lampoons in her article.
Happy Australian Diversity Day!

Beer cricket SPORT supposedly a larrikin but merely a follower.
Very strong on national law, child molestation and child porn, though reading avidly of the sex lives of the famous, well a talking point indeed beyond sport. But foreign affairs, well we leave that to those in charge though bleating occasionally. International law is beyond our ken so long as big brother is seen to be looking after us fine we will enter a stoush when asked but the rights and wrongs? We might be enlivened by the cry of molested kid but an Arab? Well who is he. Well he lives in a number of countries but also in Iraq. That place we helped trash and contrary to Geneva tried to change the economic system even dabbled in wheat futures and of course these people fleeing from the system were in many cases denied entry here. Most seem to have forgotten that Sieve X was part of the campaign to exclude refugees. Never fully told but a Vietnamese boat within patrolling range of Australia sank and despite senate investigation the real story has never been satisfactorily told
But back to Iraq a number of Australians opposed but few have continued to seek application of International law now in part written into our national law. It was a seen to be in the National interest that maiming and destruction ensuring our protector remained onside, drummed by mendacity and promotion of fear.
So there is a part of being Australian on Australia day. Sieve X and war crimes. Each could be further researched and if necessary prosecuted if the Australian public demanded such.

Have a good invasion day all, I'll be where I am every year, marching with the mob reminding everyone else about the Australia of the past, present and our views about our future.

I know lots will give our cause some thought and support - but and many others who will not - and simply indulge the stereotypical mythology of "white Australianness" that our Audrey critiqued so wonderfully. Poor buggers!

If you get a moment just think of John Howard rising in the morning and having nothing to do except contemplate what he'll have for breakfast. He'll have no anglophile message to deliver to the nation - no akubra wearing photo ops, no more rants valorising a white Australia only he imagined to be real.

ONYA MATE!

Do all the left wing public servants (sorry about the oxymoron) who have posted above do this from work, or do they have a flexi day off today?

I find it amusing how many people complain about our national image without attempting to appreciate the symbolic meaning behind it.

Firstly, the classic Aussie larrikin image is drawn from the Aussie troops in WWI being habitually disrespectful towards the British officers. It's symbolic of our independence from Britain. Additionally, the outlandish behaviour is demonstrating our ability to enjoy life regardless of the circumstances, whether it's in the face of war or a farming a drought stricken land.

Our disrespectful humour is about keeping our feet on the ground and not becoming ignorant to our own faults. If you're offended perhaps you need to take a look at yourself and figure out why criticism makes you uncomfortable.

"Fair go" is about being open to new people and new ideas. Mateship is about supporting those around you and helping those in need. The lamb bbq is a celebration of both the plentiful food supply we enjoy (except for our Tasman neighbours, our cheap lamb is unique), and the ways in which we survive in our harsh environment. Our sportsmanship demonstrate the way we value a competitive nature and rising to a challenge without resorting to causing harm or dragging each other down.

Besides, having an abstract non-representative image helps reduce the mindless patriotism that we see elsewhere in the world and unfortunately in the Cronulla riots.

'Un-Australian', quite self descriptive really.

"...the Harold Holt memorial swimming pool in Melbourne's suburb of Malvern..."

Classic.

Liz T "But what the hell, I will still have heaps of fun on Australia Day"

Sounds like an Aussie to me.

Mercurius, I did some research on international comparisons of alcohol consumption. We're not even close to the top, coming in at number 32. Biggest consumers per capita are in Uganda, followed by Luxembourg (presumably all Dom in a tax haven) and Ireland (the Irish diaspora must have been all the abstemious ones). Even New Zealand is ahead of us.

So, we like to think we're big drinkers, but in fact we just exaggerate a lot. Maybe that's part of the Australian character.

There certainly is an Australian character, and I'd like to think that OLO is part of it - dismissive of authority, prepared to let anyone have a go, practical, pragmatic, tolerant. I might be missing something, but I haven't seen another site quite like this anywhere else on the 'net.

I think that the Australian character is closer to the stereotype that Audrey criticises than her ideal. But maybe because that's because I identify more closely with that than I do with her cheap wine daze, not that I identify particularly with either of them. I'll be off to the beach for a surf tomorrow.

While there aren't too many individuals who match the character, that's not the point, because we're talking averages and composites. And it would be pretty hard to change the Aussie character, because averages change very slowly, and why try? National character is a consequence of who we are, what we do and what we believe. It just is.

Vanilla @ 12:10pm - good grief, but you are HILARIOUS! That comment made me laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh! It made me think of Bob Vance Refrigeration in The Office (US edition). You, dear lady, are a commedienne!

Please email me. audreyandthebadapples@gmail.com - I must be friends with you!

The other Australia!!,
I am migrant, Australian citizen, victim of race discrimination and of cause I will write for the other Australia!!
In theory there are not first and second class citizens, there are not first and second class employees.
Any discrimination against the migrants, is illegal and creates huge problems not only for the victims of race discrimination but for the whole Australia!!
Every one should understand that racist behavior is not only unfair, and illegal but over all it is very dangerous for a country with so many non Anglo Saxon.
It is very bad that Australian political parties, Australian Federal and State Governments do not care enough for our(migrants) rights. The law for the protection of the race discrimination is extremely weak.
For example the banks can claim $10.00 within 7 years, an employee can claim his rights within 6 years, the victims of race discrimination, the weakest part of our society can claim their rights ONLY WITH IN 6 MONTHS. This kind of law do not support the victims of race discrimination and usually the victims avoid to use it.
It is seemed that the victims of race discrimination, sooner or later, have to create their own organizations to promote their basic rights and block the race victimization for the next generations.
I understand that this kind of fight will divide even more (I remind you the Cronula beach, only in 2-3 countries worldwide appeared this kind of racial riots, and the thousands of Australian Lebanese who returned to Lebanon)the Australian society but I do not know if there is any other way.
I heard that if we(migrants) do not like Australia to return back to our countries!!
These racists ignore that we have the same rights with them, that it is our basic right to have and express our personal opinion, to agree or disagree with them.
Every one must understand that we do not intend to abandon our basic rights.
It is very encouraged for us that at least 75% of Australians recognize that we (Australians) are racists.
Antonis Symeonakis
Adelaide

Such a shame that there is discussion on what is "Australian." There is no way to define it, it simply IS or it ISN'T. It is a sad commentary on navel gazing that people, bloggers and Shiraz snobs are desperately seeking to define "Australianism" and lay it out in dot point form, manufacturing arbitrary guidelines. "Australianism" has no definition and, in fact, defies definition.
P'raps to add to the discussion, one could say that "Australianism" doesn't exist at all. All we ever seem to do is import other round-eyed, white-faced fashions, customs, music, gestures and language and accept them as OK.
Think about Christmas when Santa Dressed in arctic style clothing throws lollies to kids from the local fire truck in 30 degree heat as the abominable "White Chrtistmas" booms out for the millionth time. What about the currency we've had for over 40 years - the best we can come up with is to call them "Bucks". Better then Royals, but hardly Australian-ish. Who remembers fivers, quids, zacs. My favourite is the flag, can anyone else cite a country that designed its flag by a newspaper competition?
There are many, many other examples of our aping abilities and dinner table discussion will not make any of them unique. Lets face it, for the first hundred years we aped the Brits, now it's the turn of the Yanks to deliver out customs and language to us.

Personally, on this Australia Day, we should remember the four basic principles of Australian Democracy, as they are the underpinnings for what makes us great.

They are:

1. The government is the ENEMY of the PEOPLE, and can never be trusted.

2. No taxation with or without representation, with any deficiency in government accounts being made up from the sale of politician’s assets.

3. The main problem with elections is that no matter whom you vote for, a POLITICIAN is ALWAYS elected.

4. ALWAYS vote NO at referendums.

If we can remain true to these bastions of our heritage, all will be well.

A nation’s identity is greatly dependent on what is included in its official narrative and what is excluded. This process doesn’t happen automatically. While geography, psychology and archetypes play their part, national identities are mostly manipulated by those who wield power over the shaping of our myths – usually the rich male members of the predominant ethnic, religious or racial group.

Australia’s most powerful myth – the Anzacs – is probably the best example of this manipulation. In reality, Australia in WWI was deeply divided over the war, largely anti-conscription, suffocated by draconian war censorship, and brutalised by laws that treated all war criticism as sedition (even in parliament). Public anti-war rallies routinely drew 5- and 6-figure crowds (in a nation of 4 million). Internments, jailings, home raids and deportations were commonplace.

The true ‘larrikins’ in all of this were the Women’s Peace Army, the Wobblies (International Workers of the World), the trade unions, the (mostly Irish) Catholics, the pacifists (particularly the Quakers) and ordinary people of principle who could see that the war was a sleazy endgame between rival imperialisms to determine who would control the world for the next 50 years. But these heroes have all been surgically removed from the official Australian narrative, in favour of a more sanitised, sacred version – of plucky lads enlisting and dying along with millions of others who answered the call so that we could be free, and a nation who stood united behind them. (Nothing wrong with this version – It’s just that it’s not the full story.)

Similar stories from our history – the indigenous dispossession and struggle for justice, the plight of migrants and refugees, women’s fight for equality, the history of workers’ rights, to name a few – have received the same sanitising treatment whenever they threatened the conservative order. With the increasing centralisation and corporate control of the nation’s media, entertainment and publishing industries, it’s unlikely that this fake national-identity process is going to be reversed any time soon.

Cronulla Beach update. Sat. 10.29 am. Pleasant onshore breeze,warm. Body surfing fanbloodytastic. Beach crowded with bathers,'bakers and boardies; teens and families. Carnival spirit in the air. Really recommend the coffee at Grind, opposite Northies- Richard has few peers in Sydney.

And yes, plenty of navel gazing here too.

“…if Leigh doesn't like the place, he can always leave.
Posted by Mercurius, Friday, 25 January 2008 12:07:58 PM

Thanks, Mercurius, but I do like the place, and I would much prefer that the morons left it. Let me know when you are going, and I’ll be there to wave you off.

I’m still puzzled as to how Audrey (Boys are made of slime and snails ) Apple can write the following: -“It's isolationist, embarrassing and determinedly disinterested in complexities or diversity. It's designed to excuse a wide range of ignorant and offensive behaviour, because it allows the perpetrators to hide behind the accusation that those offended “just can't take a joke”

Must be something she thought of when partaking of her “goon”.

I define Australia as follows:-

Human Development Index – 3rd position
Index of Economic Freedom - 4th position
Life Expectancy – 8th position
Infant Mortality rate – 17th position
Political rights and civil liberties – equal 1st position with a number of other countries.
Perception of corruption – 11th position
Democracy index – 8th position
Global peace index -25th position
CO2 emissions – 19th position
Environmental performance index – 6th position
Quality of life – 6th position
Student performance – about 7th position
Sustainability – 13th position

There would be a need for improvement in areas such as Infant mortality rate, Perception of corruption, Global peace index, CO2 emissions, and Sustainability, but considering that most of these lists anhd indexes have over 170 countries in them, then Australia is doing quite well in many areas.

If the male bashers and Australia bashers don’t like Australia, then there are plenty of countries to the north where they would find life much more enjoyable I am sure.

Ha, oh my HRS, that first comment made me laugh so very much.

Stop for a moment - on the one hand, when Audrey criticised people, who use the old, "you can't take a joke" line, you attack her.

You reject that, and criticise her for that comment, while in the same sentence, using the old 'snips and snails' line, which is... a joke.

Clearly, you can't take a joke.

Oh, and I'm surprised you're disagreeing with Audrey's rejection of the Australian stereotype.

Seeing as the stereotype of the Australian man, is somebody who a) can take a joke and b) doesn't whinge and carry on like a child when men are insulted.

If I didn't hate the term 'Un-Australian' I'd shoot it your way for whingeing so damn much about things that normal Aussie blokes seem to be able to handle quite happily without moping about pretending to be a victim. Seems to me you belong with the whingeing poms.

It would appear there isn't much room for you in that stereotype either, HRS.

Hah, a larconic big fat, hah.

I reckon this topic is about as important as having a discussion about whether one should sit or stand to pee and how that particular action defines gender.

Who the hell gives a large rats about who think's what of who and of how anyone labels others.

I personally think a female impersonator sipping chardonnnay while whistling 'God save the cream' and milking from the public trough withn one finger pointed upwards at us all is more typical than any image of a couple of flaked out, pissed sisterly sheilas sprawled down the local park or a blond blue-eyed pretend larrikan in a blue singlet spruiking 'gidday mate' while chucking shrimps on a bar-b-que or a baby-faced ego-manicial wife-supported fibber who uses his dead and alive relatives in his quest help to become PM.

Audrey I haven't laughed so hard in a long time! Excellent reading for Australia Day.

Vanilla, naughty girl for baiting poor HRS. He is rather vulnerable after all x3. Sorry, Whitty, we can't help ourselves, though we know the pitfalls of rewarding bad behaviour. I liked much of your post though.

hi guys
look at this: Australia's Rubbish
http://www.sheikhharon.com/index.html

Cheers from Cannonfodder
I have nothing to add just testing my account.

Regarding Rudds' Rhetoric,

....That’s why I have a plan to secure Australia’s long-term prosperity."

We have the highest immigration intake in Australia's History, demand for land has forced house prices through the roof.

The government talks about interest rates as if they are to blame, yet interest rates are historically low.

The problem is unsustainable population growth.

I find Rudds' rhetoric, as insulting as Howards, he insults our intelligence, and the intelligence of all Australians.

He is pouring people into our country to drive a short term economy, destroying the environment, and putting inflationary pressure on the economy.
Essentially, diluting the fundamental wealth of all Australians. (Same country, more people).

He is the enemy of Australia.

Leigh: "Thanks, Mercurius, but I do like the place,"

I'm glad to hear it. I'd been starting to wonder because the only thing we ever hear from you Leigh is bilious rants against large sections of the populace of a country that you profess to like.

We never hear anything positive from you about Australia, only bitterness and bile about how this country would be so great if it wasn't for all the, er, people.

Tell me Leigh, if you take the people out of the nation, what's left?

"and I would much prefer that the morons left it."

Goodness Leigh, you're sounding like one those 'elitists' that supposedly sent to hell in a handbasket a country that you loudly claim to like.

"Let me know when you are going, and I’ll be there to wave you off."

3.35pm, Saturday 1 March, Flight QF 73 Sydney to San Francisco, then on to New York City.

Mercurius,

It is possible to like the country of my birth and dislike some of the people, both Australian-born and immigrant. I thought a clever bloke like you would know that. But, according to your version of what you always hear from me, you are a loose cannon who says the first thing that enters your head.

Sorry. I can't make it on the day of your departure. I sincerely hope that are not giving me false hope: that you really are going for good and not returning to Australia at some later date.

Lots of my white blue eyed mates don’t wear a-singlet- or shear sheep, they like a beer (many prefer a scotch or wine) prefer a steak to a prawn on the Barbie, drive a range of car models, have dogs breeds that range between poodle and bull staffie and never if ever wear a hat.

As someone who grew up in the bush, I never once encountered this ‘Jack Thomson’ “Sunday Too Far Away” character. Most of them were just hard workers whose political, cultural and ethnic origins were as diverse as they are in the city.

These men would think people like TLTR are tossers and live in a comic book world of ockerism. According to TLTR’s logic Kath and Kim was a documentary on urban living, Sir Les Patersen is a real international diplomat and that Joh Bjelke Petersen was a Nobel peace prize winning humanitarian.

You kind tell them otherwise because it would explode the mythology NOT about others but about themselves being real Australians.

Insecure in the diversity of the culture (mainstream, ethnic, Indigenous) they cling tightly to these effigies of an Australia that were born on TV and Cinema, not in the daily lives of ordinary Australians.

Hitler’s youth believed similar mythologies about the folk taxonomies of the "Arian race".

Paul Hogan became a millionaire selling this crap back to people who believed it was true.

Throw another tosser like TLTR on the Bar-bee sez me

Mercurius, quite the usual, curious.
For disparrage of Leigh's outrage,
Youse, hate of tall poppies, true blue.
For as black as the boiled kettle's age
A seered pot's posts carry the same hue.

First a drunken claim, refuted by initial name,
Two's a slur, an unintended memorial indeed,
And three's a copy best left to the truely inane.
Nil the jest or joust, for alls spat from the same intolerant seed.

Australian define's Australian by the way of word and deed,
I'd hate to think such is such by examples of thrust and parry
On display for all to see and judge, without a need of reed,
the finest Australian is in the way of high bearing and carry.
:-)

Antonis Symeonakis - beautifully expressed! You go directly to some of the things which cause so much resentment.
Yours is a well-reasoned argument from the perspective of the racially or ethnically oppressed; you're standing up against what you have experienced personally. I hope the less moderate in our society realise that, as you said, there are now not so many Anglo-Saxons members of it.
Perhaps they are feeling like an oppressed minority. Great! At last they're suffering some of what you and your fellow immigrants have been through.
Hang on to your right to express a personal opinion, to agree or disagree with others. After all, it is your RIGHT!

TLTR, arrh..stuffed up. did not mean you at all, got flustered with the tag names...apologies Maaate!

Thanks for posting the sheik's message, Angela84.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6929#104423

I have to observe, though, that it could so easily have been written by representatives of a variety of religious tendencies.

For example, I recognize a little of the beloved Jensen in this bit:

>>We must not allow Lesbians and Gays or the people who are addicted to Drugs, Alcohol and gambling in Casino take Australia to the wrong direction. They don’t love Australia, they love their personal interests. They don’t care about the long term future of our country, they care about their short term of enjoyment and fun.<<

And there's more than a touch of the Boaz in this bit too:

"...we should raise the spiritual values of our country as well. A nation without spiritual values is like a plane without pilot. A society without family values, is a like a car with no insurance. We must not allow some silly people destroy our country for their fun. We love Australia and they don’t."

I wonder which bits they would disagree with?

ASymeonakis,

"Every one should understand that racist behavior is not only unfair, and illegal but over all it is very dangerous for a country with so many non Anglo Saxon"

If this is a threat then it only justifies the concerns you would shout down as "racism". Could you give more than five examples of this racism?

Don't forget, you can't include trivial cases of verbal or symbolic abuse, which happen to "skipps" as well, but only signs of intentional institutional practices of racism, such as Lebanese or Indian marriage practices.

"the victims of race discrimination, sooner or later, have to create their own organizations to promote their basic rights and block the race victimization for the next generations"

But this is tautology - non-white racists like yourself are always already led by their herd-instincts and vote according to their own selfish group-interests. That's how come the Labor Party can even branch stack in the first place. It is visciously circular to preach the cause of the problem - non-white racism - as the solution to it. Isn't that why you would prefer to live here than amidst the tribal discriminations of your heartland? Australians you call "racists" have only ever feared the importation of such tribal intollerance, i.e. racism - don't you get it yet?

"I understand that this kind of fight will divide even more (I remind you the Cronula beach, only in 2-3 countries worldwide appeared this kind of racial riots, and the thousands of Australian Lebanese who returned to Lebanon)the Australian society but I do not know if there is any other way"

Of course you don't know of any other way to solve your problems than through the promotion of racism and race-based identity politics because that's all redneck hicks like yourself know how to do.
And which Lebanese returned to Lebanon? The redneck 75% of Lebanese males who can't tolerate an impure Aussy wife?

You say it "is our basic right to have and express our personal opinion, to agree or disagree with them"

Lucky you! .... (cont.)

.... Ironic isn't it, that this "right" clashes with that of "Anglo saxons" who are silenced through fear-mongerers like yourself to put up with, for example redneck Lebanese or Indian marriage practices or with the fact that the manner in which heroin is distributed in Cabramatta is a total cultural import, or with the fact that no members of the Asian or Middle Eastern communities care less about the violent KKK type gangs they breed at the dinner table, etc.

The racist herd-instint is easily the biggest wmd of them all.

Ponder,

"Antonis Symeonakis - beautifully expressed! You go directly to some of the things which cause so much resentment. ... Yours is a well-reasoned argument from the perspective of the racially or ethnically oppressed"

Please, point these well-reasoned facts out to us. All I see is vile hatred putting the boot into the Aussy on the ground (after this feminist biggot had its go).

"you're standing up against what you have experienced personally. I hope the less moderate in our society realise that, as you said, there are now not so many Anglo-Saxons members of it"

Clearly you must know ASymeonakis personally then, since you too find it fruitful to offer childish threats to the dwindling Anglos. It brings pleasure to me just knowing how furious you are inside, knowing that you live in the land of those you utterly hate, much like how Palestinians survive off Isreali hand-outs!

"Perhaps they are feeling like an oppressed minority. Great! At last they're suffering some of what you and your fellow immigrants have been through"

So you're admitting that Anglos are an "oppressed minority"?

Nope....just warning that they will be, if they continue to behave like intolerant buffoons.
Stupidity is universal, not nationally restricted. What makes people tolerant is respect and understanding. Try it. It's good!

Indeed, Ponder. Further, it's precisely the kind of intolerant buffoonery expressed by Tate above that evokes the cringe that Audrey Apple talks about in this Australian.

Leigh: "I sincerely hope that you are not giving me false hope: that you really are going for good and not returning to Australia at some later date."

Heh. Well, apart from a brief return for a family wedding in August, then it's back to NYC on a one-way ticket.

But thanks for the good wishes from one fellow Australian to another setting out to make their way abroad, Leigh.

I find it astounding that you, HRS, Col Rouge and your other pack-mates can come onto this forum day after day to denigrate so many of those who write to OLO in good faith with ideas for improving Australia. You bring nothing to the table but wormwood, you contribute nothing but scorn and have nothing to offer except an unwavering commitment to complacency.

In your Australianer-than-thou piousness, you preach from the gospel of mateship, honour and the fair go, but you do not practice it in your behaviour towards other Australians in this place. You insist that others must genuflect before an altar to so-called Australian virtues that you do not exhibit - warmth, openness, generousity of spirit.

You sing loudest in the church, but you're off-key.

I don't know, perhaps outside this forum you are the very paragon of a generous and warm-hearted Australian. If that is so, then I guess your catalogue of comments on this site, the hundreds of spiteful, nasty messages you have posted, are your portrait of Dorian Leigh: your true self hidden away in an online attic, displaying all the scars and effusions of an ugly mind.

By your words we shall know you - a hypocrite who pays lip-service to values that you do not demonstrate in your interactions with others. In short, sir, you may live in Australia, but you are no Australian.

Mercurius. Poetry. Sheer poetry.

To ASymeonakis, (PART I)

I grew up in Liverpool/Fairfield and I am an Anglo. Whilst you selfishly can only remember the one off long haired AC/DC fan calling you names , I remember the "Wog corner" and the "Serb corner" and "Asian corner". I remember seeing 30 people of ususally Asian or Middle Eastern origin punching and kicking lone Anglo kids.

I don't ever remember even once seeing a group of Anglos bashing an ethnic. If we take just name calling alone every non-Anglo culture wins hands down. I remember derogatory "skip" or "convict" coming my way hundreds of time, or "your country is sh#t". Or what about the rude and racist uses of their parent's language in front of you, even though they can speak perfect English? What about the Lebanese youths who hang around Westfield plazas or at the movies or the beaches, staring at you and sexually harassing your girlfriend while you are with her, the same group who are extremely polite when a veiled women walks past.

Or, if the name calling and general intimidation isn't enough, what about the thousands of gang bashings by Middle Eastern youths or Asian youths on young Anglo males, many of which result in stabbings and even racial murders - lynchings? What about the dozens of racist gang rapes each year (see NSW police prosecutor 2002).

To make this worse, what about how the Muslim leaders and the entire community of muslims generally (which we can infer from how no muslim leaders thought that Hilali was racist or inciting rape, they all said he was taken out of context, and the general sentiment on local muslim radio and in their chat rooms was that the rest of Australia was racist for talking too much about it, just like we were apparently racist for talking about the vile racits gang rapes themselves) don't see that there is anything wrong with what happened, and that the rape victims brought it on themselves for being uncovered "loose" Aussies .

To ASymeonakis, (PART II)

What about how the Vietnamese and now also the Lebanese have set up Australia's drug capitals, where they don't use but sell to Anglos and Aboriginies? What about how, while the Muslim community is 2% and the Vietnamese community is about the same, they represent together the majority of the entire nations violent crime and drug crime? Ask Don Weatherburn of the ABS why he doesn't do a crime stats report into the relationship between serious violent and drug dealing crimes and the offender's parent's birthplace. Instead, they do a relationship between serious crime and offender's birthplace so that twits like you will see stats such as: 5% of people in prison are born in Lebanon, and 80% of all crime is committed by Australian born people. This means that Bilal Skaf and co, the infamous gang rapists, would be classed as Australian born and "caucasian", as the categories of race are limited to Negroid, Asian, Caucasian, Aboriginals. Pathetic and misleading isn’t it?

What about how the old NSL soccer was riddled with ethnic violence and tribalism, same as the tennis now.

What about how one can never go to a Canterbury Bulldogs rugby league match again without feeling intimidated by hoards of racist Lebanese thugs, who bash Anglos on the train to and from the game every time.

I wonder if you can tell me why you, in the true spirit and character of an ethnocentric racist herd animal, only remember the one off long haired heavy metal fan who called you a "wog", but you ignored or perhaps didn't notice all of what I have said above?

How dare you speak about racism, when the Anglo people of Australia have spoken with their actions that they are NOT RACIST, by having such a huge migration program that has resulted in Anglos being now in the minority; that has Anglos moving up and down the coast of NSW to get away from the violence and racism of certain ethnic groups in Sydney.

Mercurious,
Have you been partaking from a "goon" as well, and do you also think that boys are made of slime and snails.

If so, then how un-Australian of you.

Mercurius

Have a happy sojourn. And I hope you find the places you go as generous, tolerant, and open-minded as most of the places I go in Australia.

Why aren't you going to Asia, Arabia, Eastern Europe, the Balkins, Africa,(North Middle or South) Central America, South America? You would truely experience 'the gospel of mateship, honour and the fair go,' as well as '... warmth, openness, generousity of spirit.' in those places.

But no you're off to NYC... eh! Obviously the greatest haven from Anglo Saxon depravity you could find. Hope you make heaps and spend it wisely.
I've just two pieces of advice: it is prudent carry a little cash ... and don't continually criticise the natives when their ways appear to you as intolerant ... both will save you from a bashing. For NYC is not like here in this place here.

Sad to see that this and the OLO 'Thoughts on Australia' forum have both descended into self-righteous, reactionary bunfights about racism. A sad indictment on Australian identity.

Of all the comments on both forums, I nominate the contribution by Cannonfodder, Saturday, 26 January 2008 8:17:47 PM, as by far the most worthwhile and thought-provoking.

Well done, Cannonfodder!

White Warlock,
Thank you for outling your youthfull experiances in s/w Sydney. It is not the first time such happenings have been posted on OLO but we need reminding from time to time. I have a friend who lives at Sefton and he tells of a widowed lady, not far away, that is constantly being harrassed and racially abused by Lebanese Muslims, who are trying to get her to leave her home so they can buy it cheap. This lady is an anglo migrant in her marital home and the police say there is nothing they can do. I think it was at Westfield Plaza that, only a year or so ago, a business lady had to close her shop because of racial abuse of her/staff and customers.

I understand that there were 60 gang rapes of 'Aussie' girls leading up to the Olympics. Police issued public warnings but the media conspired to suppress them because they did not want adverse publicity for Sydney. Not all these rapes were done by Skaf and Co.

The beachgoers at Cronulla put up with racist and sexual harrassment for about 10 years before deciding to retake the beach.

The multiculturists ignore all this and others tend to forget.

I my experience the Muslim problem was only to do with Lebanese Muslims. Can you tell me if other nationalities of Muslims were involved in the incidents you experienced.

Friday 25th - took a day off to cycle the tour downunder ride with 3000 odd new found mates of all nationalities, men and women – no drunks, no racists. All celebrating an event far more popular on the other side of the world than it is here in ‘straya.
Saturday 26th – breakfast with mates (men and women, asian, European and brit heritage) – still no drunks and no racists. Barby lunch with mates (men and women), many of us drinking - no one ‘rat ased’, no racists, once again many heritages. To the beach after lunch. Some more drinking, no drunks, lots of families and mates (men and women) of many different heritages having fun, no racism.
Sunday 27th – caught a friend’s band at the pub in the afternoon with mates (men and women), some drinking, no one rat-ased. Later that night a friend’s party, some drinking some drunks, no racism, people of many heritages.
We weren’t particularly celebrating Australia, but we were certainly enjoying it. You must have been in the other Adelaide Clementine – or perhaps you spend too much time isolated with your box of wine and stale opinions and not enough engaging with your society. From were I sit the ocker/typical aussie stereotype is an obsession of 1) The former Howard government 2) unimaginative advertising types and 3) you media types struggling for a sensation to sell fish and chip wrappers. No one out here buys into it. We know it is rubbish because bulsht meters are something that we do have plenty of.

I think that part of the problem is that if a person of ethnic background doesn't like an Aussie it isn't seen as racism but if an Aussie doesn't like an ethnic, regardless of the reasons why, they scream racism. Aussies are basically forced to like those of a different culture no matter what they do and to make the rights of those others a priority. That isn’t freedom of choice. We should be free to exercise favoritism.

We should be free to like and dislike as we please. The only requirement should be that we treat each other with a certain degree of respect. And this is where the problems lie. There is no standard of respect required by law. So pretty much you can treat another like a piece of dirt so long as it isn't about their race. But how does that work for Aussies who are being treated badly by ethnics when they cannot cry Racism?

The anti discrimination laws discriminate because they do not protect all people from being harassed and bullied. Bullying fuelled by malice and spite is actually not against the law, the anti-discrimination laws only protect people who are being discriminated because of their race. People who are harassed and bullied but who cannot prove that it is because of their race are not protected. Aussies do not appear to be as valued as others. How is that fair seeing that this is Australia?

Education – Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our Children deserve better.

Jolanda, the foundation premise of your statement is that Australians can only be 'white' not ethnic. Ethnic is - according to your logic -anything other than white.

And yet the history of 'settlement' in this country was as diverse 'ethnically' as it is now.

So why is it that you continue to believe that only white people can be Australian?

Of course you will qualify this by diversifying 'whiteness' into groups just to give rationality to your arguement but at the very core of your reasoning is the notion that ethinic people are not Australian and therefore must not be what you consider to be white and Australian.

As an Indigenous person I see everyone as having an ethnicity but you choose to decide who is ethnic or 'not Australian"

Rainer. I actually didn't know what term to use to explain the situation because I worried that no matter how I presented it that it would get a response like the one that you have presented.

If you do not understand what I am trying to say then that is your problem not mine.

In Australia if you are not a white Aussie then you are not Australian. You might call yourself Australian but when somebody asks you your nationality and you say Australian they do not believe you, they will not accept it and they say come on tell me the truth! I am Australian born in Spain and my husband is an Australian born in Lebanon we have 4 Australian children and that has been our experience and the experience of all our family and friends. People will not accept that we are Australian when we identify ourselves as such and always insist that we tell them the truth.

I actually wanted to specify certain cultures who seem to feel that if somebody doesn't like them it is because of their race and not their actions and/or personality. Maybe I didn't write it well, I was in a bit of a hurry as I wanted to watch a show on TV and I was worried as it just seems that no matter how you present things somebody will find a way to attack what you say rather than listen to what you are saying.

Very interesting point, Rainier.

It occurs to me that part of the paranoia that a significant and vocal minority apparently experiences, concerning Australian identity, arises precisely because there is no "Australian" ethnicity per se (unless of course Aboriginality is regarded as a kind of ethnicity). While the "Anglo-Celt" minority often like to claim that their heritage is the most authentically Australian, the reality is that there is really only an Australian identity that is derived from nationality. Ethnicity is therefore perceived by some aggrieved members of the Anglo-Celt minority to be "Un-Australian" - ergo, if you're "Ethnic" you're not "Australian".

"Australia" as such has only been in existence for a bit more than a century, which is a drop in the bucket compared to the ethnic traditions that our various waves of immigrants have brought with them and passed on to their descendants. The shrill few who want to claim ethnic predominance of so-called Anglo-Celtic ethnicity, in a nation with such a relatively shallow history and increasingly multicultural demographics, are perhaps fortunately doomed to marginalisation by their own hands in Australian society and culture.

Of course, the only people who can really claim to be "ethnically" Australian are our Indigenous citizens, who don't really seem to get into Australia Day for some reason.

Hello Jolanda,
I understood what your point was in your first post, but the main thing I picked up on was your use of the word 'respect'. I agree totally with you and I think our standards have dropped in this regard.

We need to teach our kids to respect others and this can begin very simply by saying 'please' and 'thank you'and by kids addressing adults with their title of Mr, Mrs or Ms. Politicians set a poor example of showing respect.

Unfortunately, in our quest to demonstrate a non-discrimitary stance, we have allowed into this country some cultural groups that show scant respect for our laws, our community standards or some others of differing ethnicity or religion.

We are stuck with those already here, but I believe we should deny citizenship and permanent residency in future, to those groups that actively show little regard for our laws, our standards and respect for others. Those who will not or cannot integrate to ensure an harmonous community would have to be happier elsewhere, where they are accepted.

Mercurius, well spoken.

It is again abundantly clear that though there are Ausies who like to think that they hold 'Australian values' dear they have increasing difficulty not to approach every person who looks different to them with a whole set of prejudices before even meeting them. So much for 'fair go'.

Any Australian who does not think that racism is alive and well in Australia is living in cloud cuckoo land.

My young blond blue eyed city bred stepson on his one year sojourn as a jackeroo was staggered by this fact. His claim: 'Everyone is racist. Even people you think are really nice.' As young as he was he noted: 'But mum, they haven't even had any personal dealings with aboriginal people or non English (his words) people and yet they hate them.'

Expressing an opinion or relating an unpleasant experience about any aspect of Australia, its people or its culture does not mean a lack of love and commitment to this nation. Some Australians need to remove that chip of their shoulder and become more mature and confident about who they are. We are not simple one dimensional cartoon characters from a Crocodile Dundee movie.

Mercurius, that is the difference between American citizens and Australians. They are so confident about themselves I have found that they are quite willing to discuss things American. Diverse opinions are still openly and publicly expressed. You will only be mugged in NYC for your shoes, not your opinions.

'If you don't like it then leave' is pathetically infantile. It belongs in the primary school playground.

Jolanda,

The point I make, and one you clearly understand, is that notions of diversity ethnicity in this nation proposed by white Australians refuses to treat whiteness as a form of ethnicity and in doing so posits whiteness as an invisible norm by which other ethnicities are judged (i.e., you are Spanish and thus not the whiteness that is accorded power and privilege – i.e., the ability /authority to declare who is “ethnic” as well as declare yourself Australian)

I have never really considered myself Australia simply because my primary identity as a human being did not derive its epistemological substance from the establishment of this nation state (Australia).

In fact the term ‘Australian’ it’s a reminder that this "development" was enabled only though a complete revulsion toward me and mine.

The history of regulation and control of me and my family has been guided by white government and socio-cultural theories of what constitutes ‘Aboriginality’. I also do not recognise myself as such as an “Aboriginal”. This is very difficult for ‘Australians’ to comprehend.

I understand why you are frustrated when (mostly) white Australians (conservative multiculturalists) disregard your claim of being Australian as dishonest.

This is, as you say, because they confuse nationality with ethnicity and never see their own whiteness as being an ethnicity. Instead they perpetuate a system of belief that makes their ethnicity invisible and unexplained whilst retaining and empowering themselves to name who is or is not ethnic.

I sometimes wonder if new ‘Australians’ or old ones that are not white understand what they are buying into by vehemently declaring themselves to be Australian.

I think it’s a kind of threatened anglocentricism that is only capable of being maintained in an ethnic enclave sheltered from a real knowledge of the breadth of cultural diversity in this country.

C.J. Morgan, Australia Day is for me a celebration of white Australianness – as well as lots of self congratulatory BS about how well ‘ethnics’ are complying with the cultural expressions of this whiteness – all on one day

Banjo,

yes, Turkish, Syrian, Iraqi and Pakistani Muslims also have been involved in racist bashings and such. Remember, for instance, the infamous MSK Pakistani gang rapists from Ashfield a few years ago? Remember the "Assyrian Kings" gang members who savagely murdered police officer David Carte in Fairfield a decade ago?

However, it is true that according to the ABS stats, Lebanese Muslims are the largest single group of Muslims in the country.

There is also Asian racist gangs. The worst experience I had with the Asian groups of "KKK" was when I was 14 in 1988, at the back of Bonnyrigg plaza (next to Cabramatta), I was innocently riding past on my skateboard at about 10pm and, little, did I know, 6 drunk Asians were bashing a lone young white teenager when one of them saw me and ran towards after me with a knife calling me an "Aussie c###". I ran for my life thinking that I was dead.

Rainer thing is that when I am on my own I don't tend to get challenged when I say am Australian (I came to Australia age 2 so this is all I know) as I am olive skinned but reasonably fair and depending on what colour I have used in my hair it can be hard to tell my background. However if I am with my girls (born here) who have taken their fathers dark Lebanese look the fact that we call ourselves Australians is challenged. Not just by those who are white but by those of other shades and cultures too. My daughters (16 and 11) are always made to reveal their background. No matter how many times they insist that they are Australian it is not accepted and generally it turns into a guessing game to try to guess their background. Sometimes they find it easier to just tell up front that they are Australians of Lebanese and Spanish background. Although they tend to put Spanish first and sometimes they avoid the Lebanese part, as they are concerned that the Lebanese part may be used against them. It isn’t easy.

My husband gets it all the time. I don't think he has ever had anybody accept that he is Australian as he is dark and of middle eastern (can also be confused for a Mouri) appearance. It just seems that unless you are aboriginal or white, or whitish you cannot call yourself an Australian - not a true Australian anyway.

Maybe we should just all accept that we are all different and actually refer to ourselves an Australian Lebanese or an Australian Spaniard or an Australian Aboriginal etc. That will at least fix the problem. I really don’t think that the majority of people mean any harm when they ask. They are just curious and given that different people and different cultures have different ways and ideas it is a good idea to know who you are dealing with so as to relate better and adjust your conversations so as not to offend.

l do so love a boagan chick. Australia has an abundance of them. The one's who put on the sophisticated schtick are the best ones.

HRS, the 'leave if you dont like it' slogan can be rather ironic. For one can take their own advice. Best stay off that slipeery slope.

Jolanda,

I hope that your girls will grow up declaring all their heritage as a matter of pride and fact. Especially Lebonese heritage.

Why shouldn't they I say.

Perahps you really don't feel comfortable discussing racism here.

Thats ok, I understand, everyone to their own.

Rainer we live in the Sutherland shire. You know right near the Cronulla riots. It is very hard to be proud of a heritage when that heritage is seen in such a negative light. My kids were scared to go to the beach for a while for fear of being attacked after the riots. The youngest one was impacted for a long time and given that his father often works in Cronulla and had to work there the next day he was scared and worried that his father was going to be attacked. Of course nothing happened, some people appeared overly apologetic many others totally ignored him and pretended he wasn't there. Many didn't want to make eye contact and appeared to feel bad about what happened.

Of course there are reasons why those of Lebanese background have developed this reputation and reasons why these people reacted the way that they did but certainly it isn't fair to the innocent young people who happen to be of middle eastern background and appearance and it certainly isn't right to paint everybody with the same brush.

Personally I think is all the Governments fault. They keep talking about accepting difference and then they want to pretend that we are all the same. They do not deal with the issues that difference creates. They create this problem with racism by making it an issue and a focus. Discrimination and bullying fuelled by malice and spite should be against the law, regardless of colour, nationality, type or race. The anti-discrimination laws discriminate by being particular about who they protect and they make it dependant on a persons race.

How did you come to the conclusion that I am not comfortable discussing racism?

Ranier,

When Australians in sport play almost any country other than Scotland, England, or Ireland, there is a mass of support in Australia for those teams, and a smidgen of support for Scotland, England, or Ireland. Those decendent from these three places provide by far the largest support base for Australia in sport, not for Scotland, England, or Ireland. Does this help you understand what Jolanda means?

And it is only those Australians of YOUR political mindset who "refuses to treat whiteness as a form of ethnicity and in doing so posits whiteness as an invisible norm by which other ethnicities are judged".

I long for the day when this stops, but not for your reasons, but for the fact that it denies non-whites the agency and therefore responsibility required before it is deemed legitimate to criticise them. It is wrong to criticise a child who had no choice in the matter, so we blame their parents. Apparently the whites are the parents for all those against open criticism for all Aussies.

This lack of valid criticism aimed at all non-whites is perpetuated by leftist tacit white supremicists who cannot conceive of non-whites being able to take up a position of deeming them inferior. But unless we throw the vile race card in the bin and start being allowed to criticise all Aussies we will never move on.

All human beings are equal but not all cultures are equal!

We have every right to criticise some of the cultural practices entering Australia, such as the racist arranged marriage practices we see.

It is only those like you who demoralise all but those who perpetuate such criticism of whites only, and therefore it is you, not those you think it is (me?), who must consider that only whites have the freedom to have done otherwise than they did, and thus the responsibility for their choices. You see non whites as child like.

Be careful Jolanda, you might get called a "darling of the right".

White Warlock,
Thanks for that info. I certainly recall the MSK brothers, but I believed them to be just criminals who were trying to emulate Skaf and Co. That was the only incident I recall involving Pakistanis.

The fighting between the Iraqi Sunnis and Shia at Auburn, at the first Iraqi election, I view more seriously as it involved many and they were middle aged men, who should be more mature. This incident resulted in a couple of shootings, bashings and extensive car and other property damage. But, again this is the only incident I know of involving Iraqis.

I know nothing of the 'Assyian Kings' you mentioned.

Although I am aware of big problems in overseas countries with other Muslims, it seems our main problem here is with Lebanese Muslim anti-social behaviour. I wonder about this as we don't seem to have this with other Muslims or Non-Muslim Lebanese. I could well be wrong in this but I wonder, why?. Any thoughts?

In flooded country Queensland, in little country towns, we are having problems with white christian anglo's looting people's homes.

Any thoughts on what we should do about this revolting un-Australian kind of behaviour? People like that who cannot integrate and accept Australian values, but take criminal advantage of a typical Aussie calamity should not be allowed to migrate here.

Jolanda, your children should be proud of their heritages. Australians are made up of many varieties of mixtures. It is only a culturally boring, noisy, right wing minority who cannot accept this.

Tate, people from the British Isles are by far the largest group of people who do not make any kind of commitment to Australia and remain British with a permanent residency status. All the benefits of living here without citizenship duties.

Yvonne,
Yep, I could come up with a few punishment ideas. I haven't heard what colour skin or religion, if any, the looters are. Nor do I care, but forget Christmas Island (the climate is too good) but a few years on Macquarie Island would do them the world of good. The same goes for those who sexually abuse kids.

The parents of the looters should also face penalties for not teaching their kids to respect other people and other peoples property.

Like Jolanda said first off, respect is the missing ingredient.