Oh dear! How ironic that an article that mentions “rationality” so much, shows absolutely none of it whatsoever - along with a flawed definition of “rationality”, just to top it off.

There's not much more I can add to the majority of sensible posts on this thread, so I thought I might go through some of the so-called 'rationality' that I used in my days as a Christian, to prevent myself from asking questions:

- The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.
- Science can't explain how matter came to be: God must have made it all.
- You can't conclusively dis-prove the existence of God: He must exist.
- The Bible has some good morals to live by: It must be true.
- I can't explain [insert contradiction/logical error here]: Let's just say that God cannot be explained.
- I can't explain why that happened: Let's just say that God works in mysterious ways.
- God didn't answer my prayers: I mustn't have had enough faith or listened hard enough.

I could go on forever. But the above list should be enough for anyone with a shred of intelligence, reason and rational thought to seriously question the dogma of 'Faith'. It's a very narrow, blinding and infantile state-of-mind to be in.

“The rationality of faith”

In my interpretation of English, such a title represent a classic oxymoron.

A value based on “rationality” suggest a source based in reason and logic.

A value based on “faith” suggest something which does not have any basis in reason and logic

Whilst a person may express support for both faith values and rationality values, such bases cannot “co-habit” in a single value.

My own view is to be suspect of anyone who confuses faith and logic, their mind (both reasoning and emotional sides) is either addled or perverse (and that represents the underlying suspicion I hold most theologians and priests in)

However, Mozart was inspired to create such beauty that I believe there must be some "divine" force.
Although I doubt anyone will find such a force in any congregation which requires people to subordinate themselves to a priest class/caste.

Of interest and relevant to this topic, is the 2008 Backhouse Lecture delivered recently in Melbourne at the Australian Yearly Meeting of The Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). Titled Faith, hope and doubt in times of uncertainty: combining the realms of scientific and spiritual inquiry, it was delivered by George Ellis and is available by emailing sales@quakers.org.au <sales@quakers.org.au>. It costs $11 + p&p.

George Ellis is a Quaker and is Professor Emeritus of Applied Mathematics, University of Cape Town, South Africa. He is a cosmologist and his books include The large scale structure of space time which he co-authored with Stephen Hawking. He was the 2004 Templeton Prize winner. So, all in all, a significant speaker with regard to reason and faith.

Boazy: "... it was his works...

-Sight to the blind,
-Hearing to the deaf,
-Cripples walking,
-Demon possessed set free
-Storms calmed, winds obeying him
-Walking on water,
-Water into wine..
-Raising the dead...

Does one need to continue ?"

Indeed not. You've demonstrated quite nicely that you don't distinguish between mythology and rationality.

Great response, wizofaus :)

I suspect that the article is yet another of Sellick's recycled and self-indulgent sermons. Tell us, Peter - does anybody actually stay awake when you deliver these abstruse monologues in church?

Yuri.
I had heard and was surprised that Kung was taking up an interest in universal ethics although I have not had a chance to investigate further. I would say that such a quest is bound to fail in a similar way that the emphasis on human rights has failed. Certainly there are ethical positions that we can all agree on and many that are borderline. But I do not think that this sort of exercise does a lot of good. For example the UN can pass all kinds of resolutions about human rights, indeed they seem to multiply like rabbits, and that will not stop the tyrant murdering. Human rights were invented after the Enlightenment did away with God and when they got completely out of control we invented responsibilities to keep them in check. The result looks like Hobbes’ social contract. This has little to do with human behaviour apart from the sanctions provided by law.

Christianity is not primarily an ethical system but rather speaks about the truth of the human derived after extended meditation on history. It is this truth that bears the name of God as Father (past) Son (present) and Spirit (future). God is what we see in the acts of the man Jesus that opens a new future for us. Enlightenment, for Christianity is the revelation of the truth about ourselves. Yes, we do have it in us to cry with the others “crucify him” and no talk of human rights will change that. What we need to live in peace is a change of heart that will remove that cry from us. This is about the education of the heart not about an intellectual attempt to grasp what is right and wrong which will always fail to some extent.

Continued..

There is a pervasive overconfidence in human reason illustrated by the other article on this page “Parliament is not a church”. We are told that all we have to do is to be reasonable and all will work out alright. But when this proposition is examined we find the emperor with new, and invisible clothes. No one is arguing that government must not exercise practical reason to a high level. But that is not enough, as Howard found out in the last election. Shear pragmatism and management is not enough, it suffocates the soul of the nation. Sure, parliament is not a church but a parliament that does not listen to the church is in real danger of robbing us of what is essentially human.

I find it interesting that Alasdair MacIntyre converted to the faith after he had written After Virtue. Even a brilliant mind, striving to arrive at a notion of virtue, finally sees that it is a lost cause and the only way forward is the faith. The end point of Western philosophy is Frederick Nietzsche. In him we see the best and the worst and also a warning that reason is limited.

Peter Sellick