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The Forum > Article Comments > Let's be fair about climate targets > Comments

Let's be fair about climate targets : Comments

By Nicholas Gruen, published 28/12/2007

The only way to allocate the right to emit carbon is where each person, whether from China or Australia, has equal value.

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Wizofaus” however it is exactly because we have democracy that it is highly unlikely we will ever see anything like the brand of capitalism that you prefer,”

My reality is to work from “what is” to “what should be”

The likes of wizofaus invariably work from the premise of “what should be”, ignoring “what is”.

So whilst I acknowledge my style of minimalist government, small government as Ronald Reagan called it and as was practiced by him and Margaret Thatcher alike, has suffered the fall back into socialist mantras and illusions (that progress is ever made by society as a whole (The only momentum socialism ever produced is when it has dragged society into a hole).

So I prefer small government, rather than some nonsensical and unaccountable all-embracing and controlling politbureau.

As dearest Margaret said “We want a society where people are free to make choices, to make mistakes, to be generous and compassionate. This is what we mean by a moral society; not a society where the state is responsible for everything, and no one is responsible for the state.”

Grim (by name and nature I guess)” outdated- technologies are resistant to change.

In a democracy, if the people don't like something, they should not have to put up with it.”

Yes it is called the “consumers prerogative”. The companies with huge investment in outdated technologies are, invariably, monopolies, since where free market competition exists, the competitive edge forces change into the otherwise moribund.

The biggest monopolies are the ones created by government.

As for “vive-la-revolution”,

The business processes I design and install into companies have revolutionised their trading, illuminated opportunities which would otherwise be missed and ensured improved business development. Simply because I do not wear a moustache and sombrero does not mean ones actions are not “revolutionary”, indeed the past 20 years of my business life have been dealing and pursuing constant change of a productive outcome, not the radical / emotional and controlling twaddle of the leftie Che’s and Fidel’s of the world.
Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 30 December 2007 2:55:07 PM
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Col: "The likes of wizofaus invariably work from the premise of “what should be”, ignoring “what is”."

I have no idea what you mean by that. I've stated before that I agree entirely that capitalism is far preferable to socialism, and I even have something of an intellectual soft-spot for libertarian capitalism: the main reason I don't support it personally is because of the evidence that it just doesn't produce a type of society that I would want to live in (there are also good rational and economic reasons why it's unlikely to be successful in the long run).

However, that's somewhat beside the point, which is that democracy is ultimately the only fair way of deciding what "should be". And functional democracy is never going to support libertarian capitalism for very long. The U.S. is arguably the closest example we have (given that both major parties there are both very strongly pro-free-mark/capitalism), and there are good reasons to be believe that democracy has gone rather horribly wrong in the U.S., where both a) a significant percentage of the population frequently vote against their own economic interests and b) both major parties are so dependent on corporate lobby groups for funding and support that neither can ever do a truly decent job of representing "the people".
Posted by wizofaus, Sunday, 30 December 2007 3:18:00 PM
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Gee, I wonder if I could think of any outdated technologies that don't -invariably- involve monopoloies?
Oh, I know, what about the internal combustion engine? Or the fossil fuel industry, or coal fired power stations...
Gosh, this could almost be a thread about climate change, and carbon credits.
And as to small government, I fully agree. In the current period of highly restrained wage increases (at the bottom end of town) we are still seeing inflation, which can only indicate we are carrying far too much dead wood -and wage increases at the top, non productive end of town.
Believing in small government doesn't make me a thatcherite, any more than a dislike of unrestrained capitalism makes me a socialist.
Posted by Grim, Sunday, 30 December 2007 7:25:32 PM
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Simple research on the net shows that the developing world's CO2 cmmissions have now overtaken the developed world's emmissions and that they are growing at 3 to 4 times the rate of the developed world.

Any cutting of emmissions without the developing world is pointless, and the debates about what is fair and historical responsibilities is like the musicians playing on the titanic.

Like the rest of life, that the developing world needs to make sacrifices is not fair. The argument about equal rights to emit needs to be postponed to a time when the battle against climate change is already won.
Posted by Democritus, Monday, 31 December 2007 6:59:18 AM
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Grim “Oh, I know, what about the internal combustion engine”

So you have a more effective alternative?

Well find an investor and market it yourself.

However, I guess putting your “money where your mouth is” does not stack up with your “idealistic posturing”?

“coal fired power stations” – I have no problem with nuclear.

“we are still seeing inflation, which can only indicate we are carrying far too much dead wood”

Really?

So “dead-wood” is the cause of inflation.

Interesting hypothesis but I bet you could not quantify it into a formula or even express as a rationalized statement of cause and effect, for us all to inspect and objectively criticize.

Personally, I thought inflation was caused by the available market price exceeding the practical supply, historically produced by governments “pump priming” their economies by flooding the market with money or capital works programs which was not funded by taxes (unbalanced budget).

My view sounds a little dull, your view sounds far more exciting or at least “diversionary” so I do look forward to your elaboration on the matter.

“Believing in small government doesn't make me a thatcherite,”

well if it did (make you a Thatcherite), you would not need to rely on the banal jingoism of the ignorant to fill your posts.

Democritus wrote “Like the rest of life, that the developing world needs to make sacrifices is not fair.”

Agree.

If you want to be “fair”, we would all have the life quality and expectancy of some one living in the Horn of Africa.

That is the promise of carbon trading, to reduce your life quality to that of an Eritrean as the carbon market exchange attempts to elevate the Eritrean life quality to that of the Australian.

Somehow I bet the Aussie will equate closer to the position of the Eritrean than the Eritrean will ever be lifted to the life quality of the Aussie.

Carbon trading is mere “Socialism by Stealth”. That educated folk are voluntarily supporting the radical diminution of their and their children’s life quality for a failed political notion is almost beyond belief.
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 31 December 2007 9:07:59 AM
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Folks, just a few more interesting ideas to stir the pot a little.

This problem of CO2 emissions relates to CO2 gas being released into the atmosphere. If one considers the volume of atmosphere (in cubic kilometres) above Australia, and the volume of CO2 that we are releasing into it, you will realise that our rate of emission is one of the lowest in the world. But! You will say, it must be measured per capita! Why! To make us feel guilty? (Always a powerful tactic, practised by religions for thousands of years). The atmosphere doesn't care if 10,000,000 people each emit one gram, or if 1 person emits 10,000,000 grams. But, you say, we must lead by example! What a joke. Anyone who thinks that Australia matters in the world should look at a variety of overseas internet sites on this or any other subject, and you will have a rude awakening.

The most wonderful thing about Australia is that it doesn't matter. Shut away in our little corner of the world, we can give thanks that we are protected from most of the problems of the world.

Two other interesting statistics that should interest people:

1. Only 11% of the world's population live in the southern hemisphere.

2. Only 4% of the world's pollution is generated in the southern hemisphere.

This means that again, Australia doesn't matter. This problem of CO2 pollution will be resolved (if it is) by the major countries of the northern hemisphere, and what we think or do doesn't matter a bit.

The inescapable conclusion from all this is that the third world will NEVER be developed. The resources to do this simply don't exist. If they did, and were applied as desired, we would all promptly choke to death on the pollution.

It is clear to me that many socialists and other do-gooders simply can't come to terms with these facts, driven as they are by an overwhelming urge to improve the lives of others.
Posted by plerdsus, Monday, 31 December 2007 11:56:45 AM
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