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The Forum > Article Comments > Putting the people back into politics > Comments

Putting the people back into politics : Comments

By Luca Belgiorno-Nettis, published 14/11/2007

It's time for a dialogue about how citizens can become more active in the political system which shapes their lives.

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Unfortunately conversations are not enough because the system as it is has an almost unstoppable momentum to it an cosmetic changes around the edges wont make any real difference.

We have to all start doing things differently as indicated by this essay: 1. http://www.dabase.org/radicpol.htm
Posted by Ho Hum, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 9:10:22 AM
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Luca, I'm there. You are exactly right.

Ho Hum has already given up. Ho Hum and all of us know all our politicians lie, practically all the time. Lying by evasion I include. Yet these same people ignore that and still vote for Parties that have lied to them for decades.

If we keep letting them lie, evade, avoid, cover up, bully and the rest (using our money of course) then they will only increase how much and how often they do that.

They do treat us like total morons. The choice is to sit there and whinge or get off your butts and try.

Right now I want Howard out, regardless. I don't like Labor either as my State, QLD, has been brought to the verge of no water and more through Beattie's total lack of action. As has Howard. I detest both Parties.

The difficulty people see is how to change the domination of the major parties.

I have many ideas on that, and yes they are hard, but if you do nothing you will be crushed, as we have been.

Ideas :
. Stop public funding of electoral campaigns. The current system rewards the majors and punishes the smalls.

. Change the role of Minister's. Right now as soon as they sit in the chair they are taken captive as we've seen in Yes Minister. Minister's immediately start defending the actions of their portfolio staff simply because they won't accept blame. I say change their role to external auditor of that portfolio with their brief being to discharge the policies. In other words the Minister is not a part of that Agency, they would be the mean, nasty auditor of all functions, with suitable staff.

. Change the loyalty of MP's from Party to electorate. This is tough simply because the existing Parties would have to change it. That's the hurdle. Essentially though what I'm thinking is the contract with their electorate allows that electorate to dismiss the MP if they fail to support the electorate's needs.

There more I could say and will at your site.
Posted by pegasus, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 9:28:23 AM
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One of the main problems, apart from the similarity of ‘different’ parties, is that our electoral representatives do not represent us, their supposed masters, but themselves and their lack lustre parties.

What is contained in the rubbish we are having stuffed into our letterboxes, email in boxes and other electronic media prior to the election on the 24th? ‘Look at me (the candidate/sitting member). Look at my party. Look at what we’ve done.’ Not, ‘What do you, the electors, want me and my party to do for you?’

Most voters regard the cant and promises they get before every election as bullswool, yet they continue to vote for the same boring, self-interested hacks time after time.

We should all withhold our votes from the lot of them! That’s what I intend to do this election. I will right short comments on both papers, but not vote for any of the same old bunch of no-hopers who have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they are not worthy.

No votes for anyone. See what the boofheads make of that.
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 9:35:59 AM
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I like the idea of democracy to have the feeling that I have control over my life, can chose a career, chose a town to live in, can provide a secure family setting to raise healthy kids.

However my work experience, conversations and reading and has lead me to think that the nations have been superceded by multinational corporations. Politicians are just puppets being jerked around by Big Business like Murdoch, Bunge, Manildra and unknown others. Politicians promote the interests of the last lobby group to talk to them or the lobby group that pays the highest bribe. I thought that Australia was immune to corruption but today's politicians are a very venal bunch.

Take the National Country Party, or whatever its name is this year. This organisation collects annual subscriptions from farmers via automatic bank transfers for sums like $2.10, $4.20, $6.30, $8.40 when the wheat, wool, milk cheque is due to be received. The average farmer looks at the statement and thinks "another bloody bank charge". Now financially this money isn't worth the effort it takes to collect it but if the organisation doesn't collect the money it can't honestly say it represents the farmers. The organisation gets its funding from Monsanto, Pivot and other large businesses that want to control and collect subsidies for agricultural production in this country.
Posted by billie, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 9:46:31 AM
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Luca, public cynicism should come as no surprise to anyone who has participated in a few elections. Since 1983 the Parliament has seen fit to transform Senate elections into a party political barganza requiring very little input from Joe Public. Force someone to attend a polling station then give them a no-brainer option like ticket voting and hey presto, 96% of votes become, by default, the play things of political parties, bargaining chips to be wagered behind closed doors. Little wonder people feel a little disconnected from the process.

Perhaps the best place to start is to clean up this travesty and see if allowing people to cast a vote according to their wishes makes any difference?

For more on this go to www.myspace.com/savethesenate
Posted by tebbutt, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 10:18:28 AM
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tebbutt,

I agree with you and the previous posters. However, you people seem to think that you will get a more democratic system if you ask the politicians nicely or point out that the compulsory preferential voting for the senate makes it difficult to allocate your preferences - as if they didn't know and intend exactly that!

Instead of opting out, like Leigh, I suggest throwing a spanner into the works: just put incumbent politicians last, even though this will be a nuisance for the Senate. I number backwards to avoid getting mixed up. Nothing will get politicians' attention better than seeing their colleagues booted off the gravy train. The new incumbent is likely to be just as bad, but no problem, as you will be putting him last the next time. There is a US website for an organisation called Vote Out Incumbents for Democracy (VOID) that advocates this approach

http://www.voidnow.org

You can write "Democracy" or "Proportional Representation" on the ballot paper (if it doesn't render the vote invalid) to explain why you are doing this.
Posted by Divergence, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 10:54:16 AM
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I agree with the thrust of this article and commend those who are trying to do something about it. Maybe I'll do something on the new site. But two things: the change has to start with ourselves, not with structures; and the change will be slow. I would support the intelligent use of the Internet, which allows us to communicate and form alliances in an unprecedented way.
Posted by Don Aitkin, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 11:00:56 AM
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"No votes for anyone. See what the boofheads make of that."

Leigh, I understand the sentiment, but if we all do that we'll be the same as Burma. What happens then is that, as nature abhors a vacuum, the strongest boofhead wins by force.

It's possibly better to vote strategically. In the House of Reps, I'm going to vote the majors at the bottom of the list with everyone else on the ticket above them. While one of the majors will eventually get my vote, at least it will come down to preferences. And I'm going to vote for the biggest minor party in the Senate.

If enough people did that, it would get the message across.
Posted by RobP, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 11:47:24 AM
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Congratulations to all involved in this initiative. How urgently it is needed. The present political auction (using our money) makes this all too crystal clear.

This nation deserves better.

While it's become the stock-in-trade of Australian politics for political leaders, once elected, to throw up their hands in horror, declare that they hadn't realised how bad things had gotten under their predecessor, and then disown large chunks their own electoral manifesto in the name of the "national interest" (read "their cronies"), this is doing tremendous harm to Australian democracy.

It engenders a corrosive political cynicism throughout the population, devalues the currency of public integrity, dumbs-down political discourse to the lowest common denominator, and makes the public media complicit in a wilful deception. The result is that we have a citizenry that has either given up on politics or accepts that's how the game is played, so doesn't demand anything better of the political class or the media. A very dangerous situation indeed for a democracy.

We seem to have forgotten that elections are more than periodic publicity stunts which cyclically allow one group of professional politicians to exchange positions with their opposite numbers. Democratic elections are also about about mutual political education - a time to challenge our collective taken-for-granted assumptions about the conduct of public policy, deconstruct opposing ideologies, and educate aspiring representatives on what the community values, expects and hopes for now and in the future.

How far is the present charade from this ideal!

A national Citizens' Parliament, randomly selected, could make a valuable contribution to revitalising our moribund democracy. We need a thoroughgoing and public review of the systemic flaws in our processes of national governance at all levels - flaws that the dominant political parties have manipulated and entrenched to their own advantage.

Such a citizens' Parliament would, in my view, need to be accompanied by community level discussions on the core values and purpose of our democracy. It is time to put the demos back into our democracy.
Posted by ethos, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 11:49:52 AM
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clearly i've been writing about the need for actual democracy in a foreign language.

but once again for the blow-ins:

democracy is a society ruled "by the people", as lincoln put it. in a modern nation state, it will have three features:

1. direct election of ministers
2. public conduct of public affairs
3. primacy of citizen initiated referendum

oz is not a democracy. worse, ozzians don't want democracy, because it's too hard for them. if they did want it, this is how:

1. organize a (would-be) citizen action group, to publicize their goals and get mass support for democracy.
2. notify all candidates that members of the group will only vote for persons who will enact legislation establishing the three elements of democracy.
3. if no candidate agrees to do this, withdraw legitimacy from parliament by refusing to vote, instead writing "democracy" on the ballot.

this program will bring democracy to oz in time, without violence. it just needs desire and patience from the oz electorate. big ask, huh.
Posted by DEMOS, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 12:19:10 PM
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A committee of selected "representatives"! Good grief! Imagine the politicising of that committee.

We have the Internet. The entire adult population can vote on issues. This has been said before. See

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=6397
Posted by healthwatcher, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 2:14:51 PM
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Ok I have a pretty different perspective on things.... Why the hell are we using democracy in the first place? What makes the views of the 51% better than those of the 49%? Or even the 99% over the 1%?

The very notion of democracy makes no sense whatsoever. People don't really end up voting for what policy they want for themselves, they're really voting for what should be imposed on other people. Not that voting ever changed anything of significance.

We're better than this system of coercive tyranny of the majority over the minority. I'd like to see the rights of the individual not being rode over roughshod. I'd like to see people apply about 3 seconds of rational thought to the idea of democracy and to realise that there is nothing about what the 51% want, that makes it the smarter policy.

If people actually stopped voting (or spoiled their ballots), then this would send a REAL signal, and it would delegitimize the current state of affairs. That's the way to send a real message. Those who wash regularly should not stoop to democracy.
Posted by volition, Wednesday, 14 November 2007 6:43:15 PM
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Well Well

It seems that some people have worked out the problem now all you have to do is act.

You have a choice
you can either be a representative or

you can be represented

and we know that these people from the parties have to do as they are told so they are not there to represent us.

Enough is Enough

Stuart Ulrich
Independent Candidate for Charlton
swulrich@bigpond.net.au
Posted by tapp, Thursday, 15 November 2007 7:49:21 AM
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Well said Divergence. Leigh's no vote simply excludes him from any right to comment really as I see it. While he's in the voting booth he should vote and give his first preference to anyone but the big 2. That way at least the majors do not get the $2+ (CPI adjusted) they get for each first preference.

Yes Leigh you would still have to decide which of the big 2 gets last and 2nd last but at least you give new Parties and people some encouragement.

Note though that the majors have brought in payment to Parties for votes only to favour themselves. If any candidate gets less than 3% of the vote they get NOTHING.

If we can't abolish public funding for political parties to lie to us then I say reverse what is there. So that anyone under 3% gets the $2+ and over 3% gets nothing. That way again the smalls are at least reimbursed for some of what they spend to oppose these 2 frauds.

Of course the other public funding of political campaigns is almost endless and favours incumbents greatly. The public pays for most expenses until the campaign launch. That's why they are so late now compared to the past. If we keep going their openings will be after the election!

We also allow each MP about $200,000 funding in production of pamphlets etc. We pay for that garbage referred to by another above.

We also pay for all the "non political" advertising that incumbents do before the campaign starts. Not sure of the figure but I think Howard has exceeded 1/4 of a billion bucks this time.

Think how many orangutangs he could save with that! Did any of you see that You Tube ad by Howard where he used an autistic child to appear animal and autism friendly? $500,000 for Indonesian monkeys. I suspect those suffering autism may also need such funding. Nothing against monkeys, they do make up our Parliaments after all so Howard was simply saving a part of the MP family with that rort.
Posted by pegasus, Thursday, 15 November 2007 8:53:56 AM
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Luca,

I've been to your site and signed up. However the link you gave gives a partial error and takes ages to load at all.

Additionally I can't find anywhere that people like myself can actually contribute anything other than a short comment on joining.

Could you clarify for me please?

If it's another Getup type site where we just sign up and follow your decisions then I'm afraid you are wasting your time.

Stu,

It'll take another 20 years for most of the rabble to get it mate. They'll just keep voting for liars until it's too late. They are too used to hearing both sides call each other liars etc. Most believe one side or the other. I say believe both sides as that is about the only time they are close to honest. That is, when abusing each other.

I'd like to congratulate you, Stu, for having the guts to stand. You've got a big task but Centrebet rate you as the third favourite of 5. And that is against probably Labnor's biggest "star recruit" if you want to give him a title.

I doubt any of the usual commenters here could achieve anything like you have. They just like to complain and moan and do nothing. Good luck and I hope you get the needed percentage. Who knows? On the day anyone can win.
Posted by pegasus, Thursday, 15 November 2007 3:20:03 PM
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A great necessary initiative.

Any attempts by friends and I to raise, debate, discuss democracy and its importance receive almost non-responses. People have forgotten what it means, because it is something that someone else attends to after they have compulsorily voted. It's become a means of casting off responsibility, and by others of taking away responsibilities - one reason why it's become de rigueur to blame government for every effect on people's daily lives.

Democracy is still the best means for people to govern themselves. However, representative government is not delivering what people need and want. Only through greater individual participation will democracy change for the better.

Experiences in many avenues of Australian life, business, government and the criminal justice system have informed my views about democracy and the relative power or more so, lack of power of people to have an effect. And this starts from the youngest age. Disempowering people has become an object for government, entrenched bureaucracies, and probably also one or more mainstream political parties. And this appears to be an issue about the power and wealth that can be wielded by elected governments, at the urging of, or at least with the assistance of monolithic public services, relative to that of people doing what they know to be in their, and their communities' best interests. "Public service" has become an anathema. Government roadblocks that stop initiative, innovation, enterprise and change abound. Human rights, as reflected in International Human Rights Law ratified by successive Australian Governments, and the complete legislated lack thereof, is central to the issue - because democracy, human rights and sustainability are inextricably connected.

Our strong abiding interest is in participatory democratic education, which has proven, over decades in other places, especially the USA (see, for example, http://www.sudval.org/) that young people flourish and become accomplished in an environment in which democratic values prevail and are put into practice every day. Yet we have Schools that treat democracy as a short term subject rather than a practice. Schools do not reflect or implement democratic values. Autocracy and hierarchy is preferred.
Posted by Derek@Booroobin, Friday, 16 November 2007 8:30:31 AM
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"If people actually stopped voting (or spoiled their ballots), then this would send a REAL signal"

I'm not sure about this. If people stopped voting (or voted informal) that's just one less vote that's counted: politicians don't worry too much about this. On the other hand, if you use your vote to promote change (ie vote for a new party or candidate) it has double the impact of voting informal, because not only are you denying a vote for the incumbents, but you're actually giving it to their opponents.
Posted by RobP, Friday, 16 November 2007 9:27:36 AM
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Apparently Luca isn't bothering to read here as the site he gave the link to has error problems and, as I wrote earlier, there appears to be nowhere for anyone but those that set it up to contribute. And a number of those people are ex politicians. Do you need to lnow anything else really?

Failing a response from Luca I can only say you are wasting your time. Without real input from other than the "chosen" you might as well give up now as no political Party is going to listen to a small group of people who make themselves the only ones with ideas.

Another blind alley although I agree with the idea. But what is the point of allowing yet another group of self appointed experts to make all the decisions? NONE as that's what we have now. And that is not democracy at all. It's still oligarchy.

Luca, Luca, Earth to Luca. How about a response or fix your web site so we can actually look at it?

Sheesh, is this amatuer day/night or what? Even I can set up a web site without errors.

Remove the soapbox and try mixing with normal people mate.
Posted by pegasus, Sunday, 18 November 2007 9:51:34 PM
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Still no Luca, still errors on the link he provided.

I just noticed, after a 10 minute wait for the site to load, still showing errors down one side, that they have a list of "Key supporters" one of whom is someone called Ian Marsh.

On another page there he is quoted as "expert comment".

That's like me telling you everything I say is from an expert. What conceit. If you are going to quote people as "experts" surely you shouldn't be quoting members of your own organisation. Next Luca will be the quoted expert.

It's really starting to look like a site that I could describe with one word. It starts with W and rhymes with Yank. Same number of letters too.

Don't bother Luca, you and your lot are just another group of self interested, self appointed know nothings. You include ex politicians that served in governments that acted corruptly yet those same people voted as they were told and said absolutely nothing at the time.

They are retired and now want us to believe they are interested in democracy.

Run away Luca, go play with your buddies. Leave real people alone.
Posted by pegasus, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 7:23:21 AM
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