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The Forum > Article Comments > Porkahontas: why Kevin Rudd’s Solar Schools is really solar pork > Comments

Porkahontas: why Kevin Rudd’s Solar Schools is really solar pork : Comments

By Jonathan J. Ariel, published 7/11/2007

Are the environmental dividends from Labor's Solar Schools initiative really worth the expense?

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Jonathan

So private toll roads are in too. Now, can you show us how you costed your proposal for "free or near-free travel" please? Does it include upgrading of decades-old transport infrastructure, the extension of public transport links to the outer suburbs, installation of new rail lines? Salaries for extra station staff and security, and their training?

On my critique of your critique of the school solar energy program you merely repaet your opinion. But why do you not feel an obligation to say why we should reject school education on environmental issues? After all, it's the one universal experience that young Australians have and so an ideal place to demonstrate and teach about renewable energy as an investment for the future through the hearts and minds of Australian young people.

On your lack of a critique on ‘the Liberals' environmental record’, you respond limply: "Well, if they come up with such pork, I will be first in line to call it for what it is."

The Liberals' lack-lustre record and their insipid 'plans' for the future are available to you. So while you sneer at Rudd, Porkahontas all about getting elected, you have nothing to say about the past 11 years? Or the Liberals' wishy-washy vision for the future?

Nothing about the PM suddenly discovering the water crisis late last year? His sudden conversion from global warming skeptic in the shadow of an election? Key Cabinet members like Vaille and Minchim still today holding the old skeptic line?

Nothing to say about the Orange-bellied parrot windfarm fiasco? Nothing about plans for 25 commercial nuclear reactors (HUSH, the electorate might be listening)?

Come on Jonathon, your article wasn't about the environment. You admit you have no background. It was a polemic. Nothing wrong with that in an election; but why not be honest and up-front about your proselytising?

C'mon, isn't John Howard trying to win the election with promises too? Will he be our Sitting Bull?
Posted by FrankGol, Wednesday, 7 November 2007 5:16:49 PM
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I have a small solar electricity system that has been running for 16 years now. I would like to make some observations. The two largest panels available today are 80 watt and 160 watt panels. They cost about $10.00 a watt, or about $900 and $1500 respectively. My 800 watt panel produces about 5 amps @ 12 volts (or 60 watts) from about 10am to 2 pm, and then drops off. Assuming no other loss in efficiency my panel can run a 60 watt globe for abot 4 hours a day in the middle of the day.
A 2hp airconditioner uses about 1500 watts, and would require (1500/60) 25 80 watt panels to run it for four hours, or 12.5 160 watt panels. The panels alone will cost almost $20,000.00 or even more!
I think it is important for school children to see for themselves how impractical solar panels on the roof really are. I predict Rudd will NEVER implement this policy for the above reasons.
Geoffrey Kelley
Posted by geoffreykelley, Wednesday, 7 November 2007 6:42:18 PM
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Well said geoffreykeeley; think global, act local indeed! The answer will be in mass produced clean energy, distributed 'locally'. Posters above who champion the horse and buggy approach base their argument on two faulty premises- 1. a cottage industry/artisan viewpoint( go the Guild Frank) and 2. a mandated approach by govts. where propoganda is fine, as long as it agrees with my prejudices.

Economics is based on the idea of scarcity. Why is it that those who decry loudest economic rationality do so with argument based on... scarcity of.....?oil,energy,compassion,freedom,education,health etcetc
Posted by palimpsest, Wednesday, 7 November 2007 8:47:03 PM
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Geoff,

You, and unfortunately some big Australian retailers, are waaay behind the curve. *Some* installers may still charge over $10/watt before installation, but they are rip-off merchants if so. Gross installed costs (before rebate) ought to be closer to $7/watt today for a large domestic grid-connected package with inverter. If bulk buyers like the Solar Schools project pay more than that I'd be astonished.

The "best" retail price for panels using the established technologies of crystalline silicon solar cells has been steady around the $US4.70 per watt mark for the last three years; this reflects a short-term spike in the price of refined silicon (solar cells compete for this raw material with higher-value microchips) combined with a fall in the overlaid costs of solar technology.

http://www.solarbuzz.com/moduleprices.htm

Thin-film solar cells are already cheaper at $US3.69 per watt, though current commercially-available devices are less efficient (require a greater area for the same power) and may not be as reliable as crystalline silicon.

Various developing technologies and processes, including improved thin-film technology, promise to bring manufacturing costs below $US1 per watt in the next two years. Installed costs should fall to something like $3 per watt; much cheaper for large installations.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:AVA_Solar_Inc
http://nanosolar.com/economic.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/02/19/ccview19.xml

For comparison, the capital cost of a new coal-fired power station is about 80c per watt (that's without paying for the coal!), and today's large wind turbines cost a shade below $2 per watt.

The bottom line is that solar cells can't compete with grid electricity today, though they are quite cost-effective for off-grid uses. Given a chance, they will compete with grid power within a few years.

Palimpsest,

Things like compassion, sunlight and carbon sinks aren't traded on the open market; fossil fuels are. For this reason it has been possible to pursue profits in the fossil fuel business even as it damages vital resources it doesn't pay for, while things which are more valuable in a human sense (like early-childhood education) or cheaper in a thermodynamic sense (like collection of ambient energy) are not accurately valued by the market.

Markets need sane regulation to work properly.
Posted by xoddam, Thursday, 8 November 2007 11:27:10 AM
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Palimpsest, if you try and buy Australian solar panels today they will cost about $10 a watt.
The ALP is selling the idea that all Australian homes should have solar panels on the roofs. The average Australian voter I chat with thinks you can run a home on about three panels, and this is clearly not true. Further, I venture to suggest that the average Australian voter cannot differentiate between solar hot water panels and solar electrical panels!
You say, “The bottom line is that solar cells can't compete with grid electricity today, though they are quite cost-effective for off-grid uses. Given a chance, they will compete with grid power within a few years.”
That is an expression of hope, but is not reality.
We both accept that solar cells can’t compete with grid electricity.
If you are connected to a grid as most Australians are, all you need to harvest solar electricity is a bank of collectors (panels) and an inverter to turn the electricity harvested solar power into 240 ac. During the day the meter will run backwards. But it is not cost-effective today. A 1300 watt inverter costs about $2,500.00 and will drive about half a Dimplex heater!
If you have an “off-grid” system, you need a third element. You need accumulators to store the electricity you have harvested. Typically these are ex Telecom 2V accumulators set up in banks of 12 or 24 V, or you might use the 12V batteries used in the back of fork-lift trucks.
Using today’s technology you and I both know that it is impossible to make a house self-sufficient on solar energy without expending a ridiculous amount of money. Houses that are self-sufficient (such as mine) have generators to back up the solar power. The generators supply the baseload.
We still need the LaTrobe Valley to supply baseload to the rest of Victoria.
I really hope you are right and that one day soon solar technology will improve to the point that it can compete with grid electricity, but I cannot see that happening in my lifetime.
Geoffrey Kelley
Posted by geoffreykelley, Thursday, 8 November 2007 9:39:06 PM
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See there was this guy called Johnathon J Ariel and he could only see the world through rose coloured glasses. Let's call him Rosey. And these glasses, although they were rose coloured would actually only let Rosey see the world in black and white. And everything that the Liberal Party did under its noble leader John was white and therefore good. And everything that the Labor party did under its evil leader Kevin was black and therefore bad. And Rosey kept making a fool of himself by writing stupid pieces about the black and white world until one day he gave up.
Posted by shal, Tuesday, 13 November 2007 10:35:29 AM
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