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The Forum > Article Comments > The 'whatever' society > Comments

The 'whatever' society : Comments

By Sean Regan, published 31/10/2007

In our burgeoning 'Whatever' culture, information has displaced knowledge and wisdom as intellectual goals

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Exactly the same arguments were made in the 1960s about the baby boomers.

This article is yet another example of each generation reviling the ones that follow. It says more about the intransigent and inflexible attitudes of the critic than it does about what is being criticised.
Posted by shal, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 10:08:33 AM
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The comments which this article will generate will illustrate the author's point. We can expect rude and smart-arse put downs, implying that the author is an idiot, a conservative, and not one of the clever people who know better. If there are any criticisms of the author's logic, they wll not be substantiated.
This is exactly what the article is about - cultural boorishness, which works only for the intellectual bully - who wanders onto the school playground, hurls insults at those he or she doesn't like, and stalks off feeling vindicated. It's sad. I wish they'd go an do some voluntary community work, or even go and sit on a beach and watch the waves coming in.
Posted by analyst, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 10:36:04 AM
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A very thought provoking article.
Posted by HRS, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 10:51:47 AM
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Sean,I don't know whether to laugh or to cry with joy.Lots of what you've said has been stated elsewhere in bits and pieces but you've put the whole truth, and nothing but, together so well.
I hope the critics who will want to speak and thus reveal their faint but unmistakable branding with progressive Marxist/Socialist theory, an unseen mark on the mind remaining like the scum around a blind-man's bathtub, will take pause before responding.

They should see, as I have, groups of teenagers entertaining themselves by sitting around a large table from 8 pm until 3 am, speaking only occasionally and in monosyllables, fuelled by Red Bull and crisps, immobile, fixed upon their respective laptops which each has brought to this overnight "LAN Party."

This looks like being the future, one which you point to so clearly. One where the human intellect will atrophy, eschewing vocabulary and the depths and shades of expression of all sorts for a creole of two hundred or so grunts and gestures. Smart monkeys we are, and now we enter a regressive phase to re-become mere monkeys.
Asimana
Posted by asimana, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 11:15:23 AM
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And yet IQ scores keep drifting ever upward...(the mysterious Flynn effect). Personally I'm quite skeptical of what exactly it is that IQ tests measure, but I'd like to see some actual scientific evidence that we are a "increasingly uneducated, illiterate and uncouth society". The subjective evidence perhaps indicates that the "uneducated, illiterate, and uncouth" element of society that has always been with us is growing an ever louder voice, as they attract the attention of the media and advertisers looking for ever bigger markets, but I'm not convinced this is any sort of precursor to the atrophying of human civilisation.

Personally, I think the rise of the Internet, and blogging in particular, has dramatically revitalised intellectual debate in this country. 15 years ago there was barely anywhere I could go to engage in the level of reasonable informed discussion that I take for granted at sites like OLO. Even 10 years ago I could only find it on international forums like usenet.
Posted by dnicholson, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 12:29:55 PM
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Re Analyst and no evidence

The following was published in 1970. It speaks for itself.

"One is struck by how philistine the young are.. They are remarkable… for their evident determination to barbarize; for their preoccupation with style and their boundless appetite for banality; ... for their disinterest in ideas; for their individual inarticulateness.”

Aldridge, John IN THE COUNTRY OF THE YOUNG Harpers Magazine Press, New York 1970 P 111
Posted by shal, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 1:28:59 PM
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There have been essays and books decrying the slow decay of the English language since the 18th century, with claims such as "Our language is degenerating very fast" (from 1785)...or "Every high school is in disrepair because its pupils are so ignorant of the merest rudiments [of English]" (1917)...etc. etc.

See: http://www.princeton.edu/~browning/decline.html

And now we have "there is no question but that educational standards have plummeted over the past few decades". Even though just a few decades ago, others were complaining of exactly the same thing.

One has to wonder how we can even comprehend anything written over 200 years ago.
Posted by dnicholson, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 2:08:38 PM
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In this opinion piece, the author points out the following:

“As overtly displayed at street level, the more incomprehensible the patois, the stronger the tribal bonds. Most groups do not wish to speak to each other anyway — except for the most basic transactions — so mutual unintelligibility is a perfectly rational move.”

It seems to me that the perceived value of incomprehensibility is far more overtly displayed at the “academic” level, rather than the “street” level: particularly in the case of the current opinion article.

Terms such as, “gimcrack courses”, “nugatory at worst”, “duumvirate of dogma and incompetence”, “raison d’etre”, and “the more incomprehensible the patois” are littered throughout this article. These terms are all able to be perfectly expressed through the utilisation of commonly used English words; however the author seems to prefer the use of these obscure terms that will ensure his article will be read by a rather small audience and comprehended by an even smaller one.

Perhaps the author comes from a “group” that does not wish to speak to other “groups”, as referred in his article, and so the use of this type of language performs the function of his group in maintaining the “mutual unintelligibility”?

I find it quietly amusing that the author speaks of the importance of “being able to express ourselves clearly”, and laments at the inability of people to be able to “think, speak, or write in plain terms”, whilst at the same time as discussing “post-modern orthodoxies bequeathed by the sixties” and “electronic geegaws”.

The point of this comment is not to criticise the content of the article, it is instead to raise the thought that perhaps it is not only “poorness” of language that has the potential to impact on one’s ability to clearly express themselves to other people; perhaps the gratuitous use of “rich” language can have the same negative impact.

Perhaps the author can find a nice midpoint between the “rich” and the “poor”. It will ensure that his message will reach a wider range of readers
Posted by jaranet, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 6:48:29 PM
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Your nail is on the head. Well Done.

Apathy Breeds Contempt. Distained defiance, and unruliness.

Red-tape contributes to the disconnectiveness, alienation and disparaging scorn.

http://www.miacat.com
.
Posted by miacat, Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:33:44 AM
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One of the best articles I've read on OLO. A clever synthesis of some deleterious traits in modern society. I wonder sometimes about the quality of articles online but that has restored my faith.
Posted by Cheryl, Thursday, 1 November 2007 8:03:23 AM
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"Indeed, being unaware that one is talking gibberish can be a positive advantage in negotiating today's corporate rapids."

I like that one

Or in operation, the advantage of not being able [or so they claimed] to count past 1999 made $200 Billion for the Y2K freaks

also as a member of the Don Watson forum, it is no surprise to me there are about say 5 posts a month
Posted by Divorce Doctor, Thursday, 1 November 2007 9:07:56 AM
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in fact here is a topic where I say if you cant beat em then join em

http://z8.invisionfree.com/weaselwords/index.php?showtopic=290

it is my own disclaimer of a disclaimer [written in Patent Attorney language] re copyright
Posted by Divorce Doctor, Thursday, 1 November 2007 9:25:00 AM
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What is an educated society? Will we be more educated and will socieites be better if we all have university degrees? Life itself is an education and intelligence does not always come in an educated package. Unfortunately the accumulation of material possessions is seen as a mark of success in a consumer based economy and maybe an education is seen as necessary to be a player (or survivor) in this context.

It is odd that we push the idea of education to our children yet universities are 'dumbing down' in the interests of filling quotas, we have lost sight of the basics in education and we have lost essential skilled trades people as a result of a lack of funding for technical colleges.

Education and intelligence can come in many guises.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 1 November 2007 10:35:47 AM
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It would be good to have more positive recommendations about what can be done today about situations that have never been good, such as social goals, and poor literacy. It is easy just to keep on grumbling.

1. It would be good to set as a goal the pursuit of truth as even more important than seeking knowledge alone - which is also of course, more important than being bombarded with information.

2. In a world where the brightest can work out flights to Mars and nanotechnology, it is ridiculous that millions of adults cannot read even at the level of thousands of five-year-olds. There are many reasons for this, and some could be tackled. e.g. for a start,
a) removing barriers to literacy in classrooms, that cause so many to fail right at the beginning. See e.g. http://home.vicnet.net.au/~ozideas/litbar.html

b) allowing more opportunities for self-help and for revision for those who fail, rather than just offering 'more of the same' as expensive remedial. It is ridiculous that literacy innovations in ways of presenting 'how to' read do not get interest as ways to help the variants,and investigated to improve them.
See eg http://www.ozreadandspell.com.au

This cartoon summary of the writing system has been condemned by the literacy establishment on the grounds that it is not what reading is about, which is an interaction between the reader and the text, etc etc. but no considered response to it has ever been made,nor to the fact that it does help some learners, as an aid, but of course not a panacea. As it is free, it is worth trying. And improving.
Posted by ozideas, Wednesday, 7 November 2007 3:08:01 PM
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