"so you might like to consider how long it would take graduates today to pay off their education debt and a house,"

Fester, most education in Australia still remains free for most
students. However last time I was forced to hire a lawyer, he
charged 400$ an hour. The local doctor charges around 45$ for
10 minutes. Why should these guys not pay back their education
costs?

Oh Yabby,

"I happen to know quite a few young people ..." etc.

Have you ever heard of Veblen's robber culture? It is about people who identify with the nasty ones at the top because they don't want to identify with their victims, and so they assist the exploitation of their neighbours rather than standing up for decency. This is very common in Australia these days. A form of denial of one's real status.

What kind of world is it when most are expected to constantly work harder just to get shelter that everyone should be born with? What a waste of time and energy when we could be enjoying life and benefiting the community. Instead we are running round propping up redundant commercial activity because it assists the financial institutions to keep siphoning money upwards to the wealthy low-life corporates now a-top the social dung-heap in Australia, collecting football teams and governments for the ridiculous motive of status.

I work in a hospital where there are many 'ambitious young people' most of whom would rather not work, actually, and they curse what is happening to this country. They know that they will always be in debt; and are appalled at the commodification of necessities; fear illness and old age; see their children already leading very hard lives. They discharge psychiatric patients to the beach or into caravan parks if they are lucky, and many of those patients live by theft and prostitution due to the cost of living, in an area which was once a social haven for people of modest means and which has now become gentrified and full of people competing with each other and against the common good. Half the staff are recent immigrants, employer sponsored wedges promoted above locals. Everyone is aware of this and disgusted. The biggest developers in the area are mafiosi, grow a lot of marijuana and the banks, State and local politicians just kow tow to them. There's a buck in it, after all.

Some of us live in a state of fear. Where do you live?

"Some of us live in a state of fear. Where do you live?"

Oh Kanga. I certainly don't live in a state of fear. I'm also
perhaps fortunate, as I don't give a hoot about status. I note
how many are miserable, not because they are doing so badly,
but because they keep looking over their shoulders and are
envious of others.

The physical State where I live is WA and all I can see there
are huge opportunities for young people, like we just never had
30 years ago. Great stuff for them! What seems to me to have
changed is their expectations of life, compared to what we
had at the same age. They want the lot and they want it now!

I have found that one of the secrets to life is finding out what
you really enjoy and are passionate about, then being paid for
it. If you hate your job, you are in the wrong job. Look
at those who love their jobs, they have a completely different
outlook on life.

As to the evils of big bizz or banks, when I look at the main
shareholders in these institutions, nearly all are super funds,
grey nomads etc. The 9% Super levy has transferred 1 trillion$
into the super funds of workers, thats virtually as much as
the whole ASX is worth. So what they rip off you, your super fund
gives back to you for your old age. Its all a bit of a circle.

What people have today is more choices then ever. You can go be
a hippy on a beach and smoke your joints. You can start your own
business, find a job you love, etc. Its all about choices and
opportunities and they are all there for people for the taking.

But then its also a human foible to blame the whole world for our
problems, rather then ourselves. A little bit of self analysis and
contemplation can solve that for us, if we try

Rhian - I have enjoyed your reasoned debate with James and his responses and find it refreshing that it has not degenerated into a vicious personal attack as so many seem to. For what it is worth, I am also going to make comment: most of the statistics proffered are engineered for specific purposes. The only real test therefore is in how many people are affected adversely by the changes, i.e. the bottom line. I think you could find no better 'bottom line' than Haygirl. (excuse me calling you a 'bottom line' haygirl). Like her I find myself in the same position, enjoying much fewer benefits, lower standard of living, and so on, and less money to do it on. Through no fault of my own, I hasten to add. A quick look at the demographics show this number increasing substantively. I noted that Pericles stated that single incidents should not be used to illustrate points but when they become the collective majority, even though hidden, how can they be ignored? I take Mr Howard's point - that the country is enjoying increased wealth, but the ever-increasing numbers of people joining the bottom of the pile take little comfort from that. Too many people are being forced into 3rd world conditions (and yes, I have seen some). Am I (and I suspect others) better off than my parents 40 years ago? No. On a comparative scale I have far fewer benefits than they did then. More importantly, they agree with this.

Rhian says that mobile phones and internet are a benefit.

Maybe you enjoy paying $18 a month to be at the beck and call of everyone at all hours of the day and night.
I purchased a mobile phone when job hunting so that the breathless headhunter could tell me to apply for the unbelievable opportunity now. I would duly massage the resume, shoot it back to the head hunter and hear nothing . . . . . Then there was the embarassing incident of being rung and effectively interviewed whilst boarding a Manly ferry with every one around me watching and listening in.

In fact I now own a mobile so that I can be contacted at a moment's notice for casual work. So casual that when you are called you had better be dressed for work, ready to find the address on the street directory and drive off in a hurry to get there on time. Then of course you might not be rung.

Now Rhian tell me how that improves my quality of life! I say it demeans my qualifications, experience, destroys my ability to plan and erodes my self confidence.

I think my working conditions are the same as many other workers, however those workers under 30 don't know any better.

(Here's the start of a somewhat long reply at
http://candobetter.org/node/162#comment-749 As OLO limits permit me I will put the whole of that reply onto this forum - James Sinnamon (author))

Let's put under the microscope Rhian's claims to have "tried to answer all (my) main assertions with reason and evidence."

My understanding of Rhian's 'case' is that:

1. ABS stats show that average wage growth has substantially exceeded the cost of living, even though the whole point of my article was to dispute the very basis of such statistics,
2. Evidence from the ABS which "suggests that most employees work the hours they want".
3. An assertion that I have exaggerated the factors which have added to the cost of living and that for each 'negative' factor not included in CPI calculations he can find several other 'positive' factors (presumably also not included in the CPI calculations).

Rhian apparently has, in his own head, taken account of all of the the less-quantifiable 'positives' and 'negatives' as well as his beloved ABS statistics. From all of this he has computed the answer in his head, that is, "a balanced account would show our average living standard is indeed improving".
From this it flows that the picture we are given by the media of Howard's economic brilliance is the correct picture after all, and, being the only matter of any importance whatsoever (as opposed to climate change, peak oil, the Iraq war, the AU$290million in bribes paid to Saddam Hussein etc) we are all beholden to vote this year for return of John Howard's inspired government.

Those of us who aren't able to share in the joy that Rhian and Yabby are feeling are psycho-analysed as being afflicted with schadenfreude.

In regard to point 3: at the risk of being further diagnosed by Rhian as incurably mysanthropic, here are a few more negatives, which I don't believe have been accounted for adequately, or at all, in ABS statistics:

(tobecontinued)