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The Forum > Article Comments > India’s fast breeder nuclear reactors and Australian uranium: an absence of safeguards? > Comments

India’s fast breeder nuclear reactors and Australian uranium: an absence of safeguards? : Comments

By Marko Beljac, published 17/8/2007

In negotiations with India the government must state quite categorically that no Australian nuclear material may end up in fast breeder reactors.

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Absolutely nothing to worry about Marko. Bonsai has got an IOU from the Indian PM (anyone actually know his name, I didn't)?

Sure, sell it to anyone, the old man of rusty wire will protect us. When India attacks Pakistan Howard can just ring them up and tell them to stop can't he? Perhaps he wants them to do that to get Bin L. Assuming he's not living in LA that is.

Seriously, India? Russia? Who next? Iran, Iraq, Korea, China, US, Tasmania, the Northern Territory? Oops, the NT is for dumping the waste so they already get enough don't they?
Posted by pegasus, Friday, 17 August 2007 2:17:35 PM
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HooRoo Pegasus

Dream on NPT lovers who are being bamboozled by the First Five.

But seriously, I have to agree - with Peg.

Australia can safely supply Uranium to such nice countries as Russia and China because they are members of the pre NPT First Five Club. This Club (US, Russia, UK, France and China) all tested nuclear weapons by 1964 and before the NPT (1968 onwards). So it was OK for nuclear weapons to proliferate to THEM but not to anyone else (except Israel - Condi's boss).

But naturally we can't supply to India because Rudd can't (yet) split Labor over it.

Lets not let realities clash with perfectly vacuous principles. The fact that:
- India will never renounce the Bomb (because China and Pakistan have it);
- India has a non-proliferation record second to none (even the US passed expertise and test data to the UK and probably to Israel. Russia passed expertise, hardware and plans to China who passed it to Pakistan who passed it to Iran...));

All we need to know is that India is not one of the First Five Club. All those members are beyond reproach because they are all supposed to be happily disarming under the NPT regime of idealistic miracles.

In return for the First Fives disarmament dream nobody else should dream of having the Bomb (except the US's little buddy - sorry Aussies not you - we mean Israel is the preferred A+ little buddy ... ;)

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 17 August 2007 3:22:43 PM
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You have decent understanding about workings of fast breeder reactors but, you do not understand the separation plan. India can use reprocessed plutonium only in safeguarded reactors.

Now coming to your point that India will use plutonium obtained from fuel supplied by Australia for weapons is base less:

1) India has no intention of placing any fast breeder reactor in civilian domain [as of now]. Apart from the current 2 fast breeders even the next 4 breeders that will be constructed by 2020 are under military domain. The reactors will not be safeguarded so they cannot use plutonium from imported fuel.

2) So what will India do by reprocessing spent fuel if it doesn’t plan to put breeders under safeguards? What is the purpose of reprocessing?

a) Waste Management will be very easy in medium to long term.

b) It can use spent fuel from safeguarded LWR/BWR reactors [has 3 - 4% of U235 which is more than enough for PHWR] in safeguarded PHWR reactors after reprocessing the spent fuel.

c) It can reprocess that spent fuel from PHWR reactors into plutonium and create MOX fuel to use either in LWR/BWR or PHWR reactors.

d) It can use reprocessed reactor grade plutonium as initial driver fuel in AHWR (thorium reactor) whose construction is about start in late 2007/early 2008 [already passed design, environmental and safety reviews].

3) Regarding bombs and diversion of material: We already have enough unsafeguarded plutonium to build a super power size nuclear weapon's arsenal. We are in no hurry to build all those bombs as we are building small bombs with big bang economically. All 5 [500 MWe] breeders under operation put together can produce plutonium with purity of >98% for at least [on lower end] 250-500 bombs per year over and above our current capacity and fissile material stock.

We need US support today. We need them only for next 30 years but, US will need India for at least next 100 years.

The choice is yours. You are with India or you are against India. You must choose among the only two options avaliable.
Posted by satish, Saturday, 18 August 2007 4:37:37 AM
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No foreign safeguarded fuel will end up in any unsafeguarded reactor or reprocessing plant or fast breeder.
That is the whole point of the separation plan the Indians negotiated with the US. There will be a military side and a civilian side.
No material or technology will move from the civilian to the military (though realistically, since the personnel will move freely, technology absorption will occur).

India will construct a brand new, IAEA safeguarded, Plutonium reprocessing facility to handle the spent fuel from the safeguarded reactors.
This plutonium will be under IAEA seal and will be used only in other safeguarded reactors.

It is by no means confirmed that all 4 planned fast breeders will be on the military side. Two are confirmed for the IGCAR facility at Madras (which appears to have been used in the past for the production of weapons grade plutonium using the 2 PHWRs already located there). This facility will remain out of IAEA purview.

The other two fast breeders might very well be IAEA safeguarded and used with plutonium produced from imported fuel. This will be up to the exporting country.
Russia has already granted reprocessing rights for the spent fuel from the VVER units it is building in India.
Other nations may follow. The alternative is to accept the spent fuel rods back, something many suppliers are reluctant to do.

None of this safeguarded Plutonium will end up in weapon cores. The IAEA and probably inspectors from the supplier countries will ensure this. The purpose of breeding U233 and Pu239 in the blankets of the fast breeder is to produce fissile material for nuclear energy - electricity not bombs.

The traditional "once through" burning of Uranium is wasteful.. leaving most of the energy still in the spent fuel. Fast breeders allow 50 times more energy to be extracted. Using Thorium may allow 600 times more energy to be extracted, with one additional benefit: Using Thorium reactors there will be at least a ten-fold reduction of radioactivity in the waste products after 100 years, and a 10,000 fold reduction after 500 years.
Posted by john frum, Saturday, 18 August 2007 10:20:04 AM
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john frum,

DAE chief has already said that there is no need to ever put fast breeders under safeguards.

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/full_story.php?content_id=87466&spf=true
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070130/43/6bmoo.html
http://www.igcar.ernet.in/press_releases/press11.htm

Don't expect India to place Fast Breeders under safeguards atleast until 2025 or 2030 if you are luckey.
Posted by satish, Sunday, 19 August 2007 12:36:19 PM
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Depends on now many AHWRs the DAE wishes to build.
The AHWR uses PuO2-ThO2 MOX and ThO2-U233O2 MOX in different pins of the same fuel cluster.
The U233 has to come from a breeder and having a few of them on the civilian side will speed things up.
Intellectual Property concerns may be handled like the Brazilians did at Resende - IAEA at the entry and exit and screens shielding sensitive equipment
Posted by john frum, Sunday, 19 August 2007 10:18:38 PM
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Howard is NOT CONSERVATIVE. Contracting Australia's uranium to India without the UN and or safeguards is the act of a maverick. Disgraceful. It is not good business, it is impulsive politics.

Howard is out of control - with himself and the future generally.

If a deal is worth doing it is worth doing properly. Nothing can remain secure with this kind of nuclear pathway (at least) without the right safeguards.

Howard has lost his marbles. His actions of late appear desperate.

Howard is begining to look like a dictator of a third world silo. I once respected this man, as I do other leaders who have held influence over our daily affairs, even though I may disagree.

I find Howard and his leadership extreme, distructive and scarey.

I fear his desperate lust for power and his regretful ruckus.

http://www.miacat.com/
.
Posted by miacat, Monday, 20 August 2007 7:53:09 AM
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India's road map for utilization of thorium resources includes:
1) Development of PHWR
2) Development of Fast Breeders with MOX and Metallic fuels
3) Development of AHWR's
4) Development of Compact High Temperature Reactor CHTR's
5) Accelerator driven fast breeder reactors.

1st 500MWe breeder currently under construction at IGCAR will be operational by 2010. Construction of 2*500MWe fast breeders will start simultaneously at IGCAR in 2011 to be completed between 2016 and 2017. Followed by another two reactors at a selected location. All these breeder have enough feed stock of unsafeguarded plutonium required to feed them (8 unsafeguarded PHWR's which includes 2 new 500MWe reactors which are derated versons of 700MWe design + current unsafeguarded stockpile of reactor grade plutonium) till 2025 (considering doubling time as 15 years in worst case). The technology becomes mature around this time to commercialize. By this time all 5 * 500 MWe breeders will be using metallic fuels and doubling time will be brought down to 12 years. Anil Kakodkar has already stated that they will be going in for 1000MWe breeders after the initial 5 * 500MWe breeders (including PFBR).

The important point to note is AHWR will not need fissile material after 3rd year of operation or so and becomes completely self sustaining just need to keep feeding thorium. By this time you will have self sustaining chain reaction of fuel supply from old breeders to demand from new breeders and AHWR. So technically I don't see why we need to ever place breeder's in civilian domain. We can export the safeguarded plutonium along with AHWR or use it as MOX fuel in PHWR or LWR/BER reactor's.

If we want capacity expansion quickly we can build 700MWe PHWR, place them under safeguards and import fuel for them. The point here is not about expansion it is about complete independence (The separation plan is all about having enough capacity to feed all the breeders).
Posted by satish, Monday, 20 August 2007 7:56:42 AM
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Coastal states set to get nuclear power
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/Coastal_states_set_to_get_nuclear_power_/articleshow/2285662.cms

Almost all coastal states will have atomic power plants once the Indo-US civil nuclear deal is signed and the Nuclear Power Corporation is identifying sites for setting up projects in Andhra Pradesh, Orissa, Gujarat and West Bengal that will generate over 30,000 MW.
...
Kudankulam in Tamil Nadu already has two 1,000 MW Russian plants and four more plants with the same capacity are expected to be added once the Indo-US deal is inked.
...
Jaitapur in Maharashtra has been cleared for the setting up of six 1,650 MW plants using European Power Reactors from the French company Areva, Nuclear Power Corporation Chairman S K Jain told media.
...
With the possibility of 40 billion dollars being invested in the nuclear power sector in the next 10 to 15 years once the Indo-US deal becomes a reality, Indian industries are likely to benefit from spin-offs, he said.
Posted by john frum, Monday, 20 August 2007 9:20:00 AM
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I would like to make a small correction to my earlier post. The two derated 700MWe reactors are TAPS-3&4 [Tarapur, Maharashtra] PHWR's 540 MWe (Date of commercial operation 18-August-2006 and 12-Sept-2005 respectively). All new PHWR reactors that will be built from now will have capacity >= 700MWe. 700 MWe reactors are essentially same reactors (size and design) with some modifications.

http://www.touchbriefings.com/pdf/2402/bhardwaj.pdf
http://www.indian-nuclear-society.org.in/conf/2005/pdf_3/topic_03/T3_CP5_Vohra.pdf
Posted by satish, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 1:44:56 PM
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I would like to thank everybody for offering specific technical details, and I can't beat them so I won't try.

It seems that there is a tradeoff here where we can either
1) avoid selling uranium to India and encourage their breeder reactor development, or
2) sell uranium, and add to their total supply of nuclear material available.

While it is always possible to build more nuclear weapons given more fissile material, let's remember that only two nuclear weapons have been used in the history of the world, both in 1945. It doesn't take too many weapons to cause a big problem, and India and Pakistan both have them already. I wish there was a realistic chance to stop proliferation, but denying nuclear fuel to India won't do it.

India is intent on developing nuclear power, and I agree with that goal. To avoid pollution of many kinds, nuclear power needs to be the dominant energy source of the future. Unfortunately, India is a deeply troubled nation. Its talented people are underpaid, and many of them move overseas. Some go to Europe and North America, but others go to the oil rich Arabian states. The latter concerns me if India were to become the center of advanced fission power research.

I would like to see all kinds of nuclear power research successfully completed. Breeder reactors, the thorium cycle, and novel methods of reprocessing fuel or enhancing burn-down all are key to increasing the ratio of energy extraction to the production of long-lived radiotoxicity. However, I wish nations with low levels of emigration would lead that research. France, the US, and Japan all have the technology to pursue the research that India is doing now, but lack the political will.

It seems that the right choice is to provide India with such a large amount of nuclear fuel and foreign built reactors, at competitive prices, that when their next budget crunch comes they dump the expensive new fuel cycle. Next, finish that research in nations that can both afford it and avoid having their researchers emigrate.
Posted by kdavis, Sunday, 26 August 2007 6:12:06 PM
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