Yabby: "If its a yoke, then its a yoke. If its a chicken, then its a chicken.
If its something inbetween, then its exactly that.
All quite simple really."

But there's the whole problem, Yabby: that *something inbetween*.
Not so simple at all.

I love Darwin to death, but what does evolution have to do with foetal rights?
Answer: Nothing.

Celivia: "It's not so much about saving embryos or they would loudly promote the most effective methods to prevent unwanted pregnancies: sex education and contraception."

I've done *exactly that*.
But I'm *still* called a Nazi nutcase, full of excreta!

As for conspiracies: "only the paranoid survive"

An ability to sense danger and evaluate the intentions of rivals and predators is an instinctual necessity of life.

Without this "paranoia" no antelope would ever escape the jaws of a lion.

Conspiracies are nothing new.
Just ask Julius Caesar.

"Agendas" are not necessarily secret either.
The feminist, socialist and environmentalist movements have publicly stated their utopian aims.

Conspiracies may rarely achieve their aims, but that won't stop them trying!
And it's the *trying* that concerns me.

It really doesn't matter *who* the conspirators are, or *what* utopia they want.
There are hundreds of utopian conspiracies out there, some public, some hidden.

The problem is the idea of utopia itself.
And the lengths people will go to achieve it.

Utopia won't "just happen".
They have to *make* it happen.

Enter the nastiness of manipulation, coercion, indoctrination, intimidation, etc.

This is where real freedom starts being eaten away.

To help you swallow it, the conspirators cloak their aims with socially acceptable labels like "truth", "freedom", "rights", "fairness", "equality".

But any successful utopia would be a dystopia.
A world chained to regulations.
A world where free thought is impossible.

Abortion, gun control and multicultural immigration are all part of one utopian agenda or another.
No "secrets" here.

That's why my instinctual "danger sensor" immediately goes on "red alert" when I start hearing how much "better" society will be afterwards.

Call it paranoia, but at least I won't be anybody's Pavlovian mind-slave.
"The end is nigh! Woof!"

Celivia, I am well known to put in public my own personal details but I am not going to do so in regard of women who sought my assistance over the decades as that I view would be highly inappropriate.
.
As I stated previously, I can and I am entitled to cast my views and that is it. Proper sexual education might in some instances prevent females to become pregnant while for others it rather may cause the curiosity to get pregnant.
.
I have talked to women of all religions and always made clear that religion plays no part in my own views to seek to protect life.
.
When a female ask my views I state them as I deem fit and proper in the circumstances and from there on it is up to that female to do as she desires. They know I do not use religion as to try to cast some evil spell upon them, rather that my concern is to respect and protect life!
.
When I discovered afterwards that one of my daughters had gone through an abortion I did not curse her or otherwise berate her. I did listen however to what she explained. And, I have no doubt had she asked my views beforehand I would have given it and likely she would never have aborted it then and neither now be doomed to be childless! Yes, she has a curse alright but not put upon her by me in anyway, as she makes clear that never being able to have a child causes her considerable suffering.
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You see, I have been the one who have been dealing with females who sought assistance because they felt being pressed by other females to have an abortion. Because I would rather support them to stay strong and have their baby and ignore those who pursued to kill of the very life they loved inside of them, those females were able to make it through.
I am not just a person doing the talk but rather really trying to assist -CONTINUED

CONTINUED
beyond what most others ever do.
To give you an example (not revealing identities) I was asked by a woman to see if I could assist her 18 year old sister living in a de facto relationship who was sitting in a foetus position in a corner of the room, seemingly bashed. She didn’t want to involve the police. I was given the understanding it was not the first time this occurred and she was contemplated suicide to get out of the hell hole.
I talked to her and gave her my views that she would do better to create her own identity and respect her person and once she did that everything would go for the better. She asked me how and I explained that a start would be to get a drivers licence in her own name and I would pay all associate cost no matter how long it would take her. Also, I would let her use my (then new car) as I used it seldom as I used another. Well, that got her going all right. I followed through and she got her licence and used my car for more then a year. She became married and now has 5-adult children. (As such some decades passed since). One of her daughters revealed to me that I had the nick name “GUARDIAN ANGLE” because of how I had assisted her mother through a difficult time. (My family crest is; St Michaels the dragon slayer). Just one of many cases where I assisted FREE OF CHARGE, and actually paid out moneys out of my own pocket to assist.
One of my adult daughters used to come often along with me, when she was a teenager, and picked up this nick name “GUARDIAN ANGLE” females used for me and use it herself also.
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Females who go through an abortion do so at their own peril. I merely seek to educate them to value life and to ignore the ignorant who somehow are all about “your body” rights but not about “life” itself.

"But there's the whole problem, Yabby: that *something inbetween*.
Not so simple at all."

Well speak for yourself Shocka :)

"I love Darwin to death, but what does evolution have to do with foetal rights?
Answer: Nothing.

Understand Darwin/nature and you will know that your conspiracy
theories about feminists won't happen and even answer your dillema about fetal rights."

"As for conspiracies: "only the paranoid survive""

Rubbish. They die of stress and worrying too much!

"Without this "paranoia" no antelope would ever escape the jaws of a lion."

OTOH an antelope that kept running away for no good reason, would
be too buggered to run when there was a real threat, so would
be eaten first :)

Shocka, relax, put your feet up and have a nice hot cup of tea.
You make decions about your life, let others make decisions about
their own lives. All very simple really and you don't even need
to stress or be paranoid. You'll live longer too. Too much stress
gives you cancer, as your immune system is affected by all the
paranoia

Shocka “An incestuous cannibalistic necrophile”

Your words, not mine.

If you have predilections that way, I willingly defer to your “self-knowledge”.

Celivia “The anti-choice brigade is all about controlling people’s (especially women’s) sexual behaviour”

Exactly.

The Church of Rome, a major fund source and sponsor of the prolife brigades, established its power base by controlling the social and sexual behaviour of its congregants and society in general, in centuries gone past.

Even today this perversive organisation would seek to manipulate public policy agendas to force even heretics and “non-believers” to submit to their corrupt will.

It was God who gave us “free will”.

It is the Papists and fundamentalist fringe of the protestant denominations, through their sponsorship of prolife, who would seek to deny us that God given facility.

I will never understand why it is that anyone seeks subjugate themselves and others to such tyranny.

Gerritt “Females who go through an abortion do so at their own peril.”

We all undertake every decision we make “at our own peril”.

I recall an old legal notion “Volenti non fit injuria”.

It applies to those who undertaking abortions as much as it does to those who pursue any other personal choice.

You and ProLife seek to subvert an individual’s right to make a voluntary choice.

As for “I merely seek to educate them to value life and to ignore the ignorant who somehow are all about “your body” rights but not about “life” itself.”

I follow that “mantra”. are you suggesting I am “ignorant”?

I have thought about “sovereignty” of individuals and our right to make decisions and mistakes.

The only condition is: we must accept personal responsibility for the consequences of those decisions and mistakes.

This claim of “ignorance”, is another example of your “paternalism”.

As for ““life “ itself”.

The difference between “existence” and “life” is
the “right of self determination”.

Slaves “existed” but had no “life”.

Prolife would see a pregnant woman’s rights turned back to those of a "slave" to the fetus in her womb.

Once upon a time...

Celivia: "Well congratulations everybody, looks like we won yet another abortion debate! Woof!"

Yabby: "Yeah, I particularly like it when I kept switching back and forth between "what's natural" and "what's logical". Woof!
Even though, between you and me, nature and logic have nothing to do with each other, and are possibly mutually irreconcilable, wink wink.
I also enjoyed dismissing the philosophical perspectives too. We don't usually get to do that with the Christians. Woof!
I think I hate philosophers even more than Christians.
Debating the meaning of reality. Tossers!"

Col Rouge: "Has that Nazi nutter gone yet? Woof!
I can't believe we're still debating this 40 years later! Woof!
Why can't everyone in the world just wake up to themselves and agree with everything we say!
Although, without these debates, I would miss the opportunity to display my smug self-righteousness. Woof!
Anyway, doesn't Dr Pavlov usually feed us about now?"

TurnRightThenLeft: "Woof! He sure does!
And I heard, because he's finished his tests, we're getting a special treat today:
Grape-flavoured Kool-Aid. Woof!"

Ding-a-ling-a-ling!