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The Forum > Article Comments > Interrupting a history of tolerance - Part II > Comments

Interrupting a history of tolerance - Part II : Comments

By Riaz Hassan, published 3/8/2007

Religion provides little basis for the conflict between Palestinians and Israel.

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Both West and Middle-East, along with their colonies have been shaped on religous faith, Hassan, particularly on the lesson of some sort of Almighty's Gift of a Promised Land

So could you please give us an idea of
what would have been a better way?

Even our most atheistic unbelievers don't seem to have a clue?

Cheers - BB
Posted by bushbred, Friday, 3 August 2007 6:34:21 PM
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Riaz--- you say in your article that the Arabs were brainwashed into being anti-semitic by German propaganda.

The facts are that the Arabs assisted the Nazi’s in world war two in trying to exterminate the jews. Your stated reason “that natives do not take kindly to having their territory settled by foreigners” as being the reason for the Arab hostility is spot on.
This is the same reason the the Germans tried to exterminate the Jews. They did not like having the jews in their country and as the number of Jews started to number in the millions they feared the eventual loss of their country to Jewish control. It was not because they were anti-semitic.

This is what wars and ethnic cleansing are always about, tribes do not like the idea of other tribes threatening their territorial control. The Arabs have the same human nature as us all and so they are not innocent of attempting to assist the Germans in ethnic cleansing of the Jews as your article tries to claim.

Your facts are right when you say the West established a homeland for the Jews in Palestine and so was instrumental in causing the present territorial warfare. One of the reasons they did this, was that no country including those who fought to free the Jews from the German concentration camps wanted them in their own countries. Thus once again proving it is human nature to not want other tribes in your country. The Jews are also guilty of feeling this way towards the Arabs.

The point I’m am making here is the Arabs and the Jews are every bit as territorially hostile as the Germans and every other tribe on earth is. So don’t try and paint the Arabs innocent in that respect. Don’t let the nice uniforms of the Germans fool you , just picture them in lap laps and spears and the picture becomes clearer as to the true nature of man. Arabs, Jews Americans included.
Posted by sharkfin, Friday, 3 August 2007 10:28:04 PM
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Good articles, Riaz, pretty well in line with the reasoning in our universities.

As a farmer going on 87 who has spent much of his thirty years retired and in contact with WA universities, do believe that both the US and Britain were very undemocratic with their forward planning just after WW2 as regards the Middle East.

However, such forward planning has suited the situation of Israel, the allowance of her to go unlawfully militarily nuclear in the late 1960s, suiting the right-wing shift of Thatcherism and Reaganomics.

Though eventually celebrating the end of the Cold War, it still did not produce the exhilaration felt after WW2 so like facing a new ethically restructured world with the so-called ending of colonialism, especially in Africa, India and Burma, coupled with the forgiveness of former enemies Germany and Japan with the Marshall Plan.

With our gradual shift towards the old colonial corporate culture since the end of the 1970s, it seems the only answer now from the US and Britain for the Middle East could be to simply solve the problem with missile diplomacy, the only change from the old colonial diplomacy.

Proof of the re-emergence of colonialist imperialism was the attack and occupation of Iraq, and the political threat about a US attack on Iran in the future. It is a sad fact, that the destruction of Iran could benefit Israel as also a successful US occupation of Iraq might have suited her.

Further, one can only conclude, looking back that if the Great Powers were looking for true global peace and democracy, much more thought should have gone into preferably settling the very much harassed German Jews into the US, the UK, as well as Canada, Australia and New Zealand where they would have been well received considering the thankful feelings among the allies right after WW2.

The lesson is that looking for decent democracy in the future, too many problems should have not been solved partly from an elitist point of view, but from a fair-minded, even possibly risky view, but proven victorious by Nelson Mandela in South Africa
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 4 August 2007 4:40:46 PM
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I agree with much of what Professor Hassan has written in his two part article “Interupting a History of Tolerance”, however, he has not sufficiently addressed the fact that Jews have always been a presence in the Middle East and that over 50% of the Jews in Israel are descendents of over 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab States, having had all their property both public and private confiscated by the relevant governments - not only housing, but also businesses, schools, hospitals and synagogues. In many Arab States, it remains illegal to be Jewish. This occurred after the establishment of Israel. Jewish existence in the Middle East, preceded Islam, and the Jews expelled from Arab States were direct descendants of the original Jewish presence. Hassan is correct that for centuries Jews and Muslims lived in relative harmony. I question, however, whether Arab pride, whilst earlier may have been, is currently, the cause of anti-Zionism.

Whilst Israel was established by mandate by the United Nations, Arab States were artificial creations - without consideration to the varying groups within their “borders” - drawn up with pencil and ruler by colonialists in far away countries. These states were intended as puppet states to colonial interests. There have been more conflicts between, and within, Arab States than there have been between Arab and Israel.

Whilst Hassan cites secondary sources, primary sources such as the following would put much of Hassan’s article into greater perspective:

Statements by leading Arab nationalist Sherif Hussein, guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia (Al-Qibla, March 23, 1918); and later by his son, Emir Faisal asked, in fact, pleaded for Zionists from Europe to return to their original homeland in the hope of encouraging back the original Palestinian inhabitants, who had abandoned their home and spread far and wide. Both these historically important men referred to these groups as “brothers”

The Weizmann-Faisal Agreement signed by Emir Faisal, leader of the Arab nationalist movement with Zionist leaders during the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. As the British didn’t fulfil their promises, this agreement could not be implemented.
Posted by Danielle, Saturday, 4 August 2007 8:47:26 PM
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Faisal’s letter to Harvard law professor, later Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, on March 3, 1919, expresses much pleasure and expectations for the Palestinians and Zionists living together, seeing Zionists as contributing modern knowledge and technological advances to aid their “brother’ Palestinians.

The statement made by the Arab Higher Committee of the UN to the General Assembly in May 1947; and reiterated to the Security Council by Ahmed Shuqeiri, later chairman of the PLO, that there was no such place as Palestine, but the area was southern Syria.

The article by the Palestinian nationalist leader Musa Alami “The Lesson of Palestine,” Middle East Journal (October 1949) makes pertinent reading.

Riaz Hassan makes no mention of current policies in each Arab Muslim state relevant to Palestinians. There is definitely no sympathy towards them - in fact, antipathy would be the word - such as barring Palestinians from living in thier countries. Whilst Syria and Lebanon permit Palestinians to live in squalid camps, they are denied social or civil rights, and have limited access to health care. The most tolerant, Jordan, in 1988 withdraw citizenship from Palestinians living in the western area, but permitted them Jordanian passports.

Many Arab intellectuals and academics, such as such as Raji Sourani, and Rashid Khalidi, director of the Middle East Institute recognise Israel, and the realities, with grave consequences that certain radical Islamic groups pose, not only to Israel, but to the Arab and Iranian world. Whilst these radical groups may use Israel, or anti-Zionism as an excuse, a provocation, their intentions are wider, and much more sinister and dire for the Middle East as a whole.

The Arab League recognises Israel’s right to exist; and continue with current directives to Hamas, Hezbollah and other Muslim terrorist groups, to do the same. The Arab League realise that 1.2 billion Muslims have nothing to fear from the 5 million Jews who live in Israel.
Posted by Danielle, Saturday, 4 August 2007 8:50:34 PM
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'The causes of anti-Semitism within Islamist movements thus lie largely in the prevailing political, social and economic conditions and the conflicts arising from them. Islamic symbols are co-opted as a sacred motif for the political mobilisation of the resistance efforts.'

I understand where Riaz Hassan is coming from. But doesn't his concluding paragraph negate his whole argument. That is, the religion of Islam has intertwined itself with Palestinian resistance and is now a prime motivating force.

And therefore, Islam is a vital cog in the wheel of the perpetuation of Arab-Israeli violence.
Posted by TR, Saturday, 4 August 2007 9:16:18 PM
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The thesis that arab antisemitism is simply a natural response to Zionist imperialism strikes me as a little bit pat. I notice that virulent anti-semitism exists more or less as state policy in places like Egypt and Iran, over which Zionists never sought hegemony (nothwithstanding territory occupied in essentially defensive wars such as 1967). Perhaps we might perhaps consider another factor: that Islamism is itself a hegemonic religious/poltical system, and the very existence of an independent Jewish state in 'traditional' Islamic territories is an intolerable affront to Islamist clerics.
Posted by Nickisname, Monday, 6 August 2007 12:31:18 PM
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Sorry to chuck a wet towel sharkfin but Jews in Germany never "numbered in the millions" as you claim. The best estimates for the pre-war Jewish population were between 500,000 to 600,000.The majority of the Jews were in Poland. I agree the Germans were not in the strictest sense anti-semitic but only in the semantics, the important issue is that they were european Christians.

The great German/Christian hero Martin Luther related "Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self­glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them." Adolf Hitler in Mien Kampf said "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord". The enthusiasm exhibited by other european countries in assisting the rounding up and slaughtering of Jews is testement to how pervassive this religious hatred was.

Nickisname, one of the 'Axis of Evil' countries, Iran, in fact has two members of its parliment who are Jewish and whom represent the 20,000 odd Jews living there now. Such a constitution that mandates representation by religious minorities including Assyrian Christians might be an example to us Australians and push us to accept guarrenteed parlimentary representation for our aboriginal peoples. As to the outlawing of Jews this was Britain's sad legacy for nearly 400 years.
Posted by csteele, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 3:36:01 PM
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csteele,

It was unfortunate you selected Iran as an example of tolerance - some things are
not as they seem on the surface. I cite in part an article from the Wall Street Journal:

In Mashad, Iran's second most populous city,a crackdown against "anti-Islam hooligans" has been under way for weeks.

The Mashad hangings, broadcast live on local television, are among a series of public executions ordered by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad last month as part of a campaign to terrorize an increasingly restive populace. Over the past six weeks, at least 118 people have been executed, including four who were stoned to death. According to Saeed Mortazavi, the chief Islamic prosecutor, at least 150 more people, including five women, are scheduled to be hanged or stoned to death in the coming weeks.

The campaign of terror also includes targeted "disappearances" designed to neutralize trade union leaders, student activists, journalists and even mullahs opposed to the regime

Wall Street Journal, August 6, 2007
http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010434

Also, among the Iranian Islamic penal codes, girls as young a 9 years, and boys as young as 15 years can be executed, under this age they are subject to public flogging: see page 4 of the FIDH list of Iranian human rights abuses.

http://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/ir_un2005a.pdf

The Druze have their HQ in Israel because of persecusion in Iran.
Posted by Danielle, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 4:35:43 PM
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Hi Danelle, what is just as unfortunate is my inexcusable spelling escaping my checker and being inflicted on you all and for that I apologise. Parliament, guaranteed, and testament damn it!

Yes Iran has a terrible record especially with execution of child offenders now surpassing the USA. Amnesty International reports of the countries engaged in this odious practice, “The USA and Iran have each executed more child offenders than the other seven countries combined and Iran has now exceeded the USA's total since 1990 of 19 child executions.” Thankfully America recently enacted laws to halt this and it can only be hoped that Iran will follow suit, and it appears from your link there are moves within that country to do so.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-children-stats-eng

The behaviour towards its citizens is also deplorable but I’m not sure the examples you have given illustrate an all encompassing religious intolerance that seems to be portrayed in some of the posts.
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 9 August 2007 12:39:58 PM
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csteele,

Never mind the written mistakes, we all make them, especially in the heat of the moment.

Whilst I deplore the Islamic Iranian regime, I have the greatest regard and admiration for its citizens. Devout Muslims are calling for a secular democratic state free of human rights abuses.

They are far from blind to the activities of their regime and appal the abuses in their name.
Unlike many other peoples, they don't hesistate, ignore, or try and make excuses for the horrors that are happening in their country. They want change, but not forced from outside, or of military intervention - all they ask is that other peoples support them, especially in the west. These educated Iranians realise that real change can only come from within. They expose their regime and by doing so realise that even this type of regime can become sensitive to criticism if enough people know what they are doing, and support Iranians who detest the regime's abuses.

You might find the following site of interest to you. By setting up this site, these very courageous people are at risk, even those outside the country - as the regime have long arms. The explain issues and answer questions, importantly have a list of petitions which they send to the UN and other world bodies. All they ask is that people support these petitions. In the past, the west has not been good to them; and I think that the very least we can do is help them in their causes.

Free Iran
http://www.activistchat.com/
Posted by Danielle, Thursday, 9 August 2007 3:30:24 PM
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It is utterly clear to anyone (perhaps, even to the most loud propagandists of a religious education Catholic schools pioneer recently in Australia)that religions divide people - a common point with an author.

Jews and Arabs lived in “hate -and- have a sex sometimes” relationship in the Middle East – a next common point.

And the rest of Zionism, Jewish state’s legislation and following them, as understood from an article, de facto by Jews stipulated Arabs’ anti-Jewishness/anti-Semitism is just a next figure of imagination of a next Australian scholar, because annihilating of the Arabs by Jews and vice versa is as old as a world itself: a list of diplomatic documents, travelers’ testimonies, not speaking of more modern media, is the iron-clad fact regrettably.

Maybe, this story is an excuse for anti-Semitism flourishing in Australia where not Arabs/Muslims exculsively champion in?
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 9 August 2007 7:35:17 PM
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