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The Forum > Article Comments > The dark, sordid truth > Comments

The dark, sordid truth : Comments

By Tom Clifford, published 27/6/2007

Vietnam was the 'Bright, Shining Lie'; Iraq is the 'Dark, Sordid Truth'. The war is lost and the signposts to retreat are clearly visible.

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BB Part Two

With all such going on, we could wonder where the real honesty and decency lies. Not among the evil Islamics, surely as Georgie Dubya might say. And yet the real example of truth and kindness in the whole long years of the Crusades turned out to be Saladin, who not only did not have the streets of Jerusalem after capture, running in enemy blood as did our Crusaders, but also in other forays always gave protection to women and children. Indeed, Saladin was also regarded as Saintly later by many Western thinkers, different to the Knight Templars, who after mixing with the Islamics over many years, returned to France telling of many instances of kindness and decency among the so-called enemies. As a result the leader of the Templars was burnt to death in a slow oven by order of the French king of the time.

It is so interesting that today's Freemasons are said to have grown from the same Knight Templars. If they have, maybe it would be better for the Craft today to again look for the wisdom and understanding that those who tried to find peace with the Islamics during the Crusades does symbolise for today's Middle East?

So never we know, Michael, what prying people like you and I might achieve, and yet also might even die in a slow hot oven? But what the hell? Cheers, mate.

George C - Mandurah - WA
Posted by bushbred, Thursday, 28 June 2007 4:53:02 PM
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The US assumed that the Iraqi culture would love a Western style democracy.The Iraqi culture were not up to this stage of our expectations in their evolution.It was like trying to make a child appreciate differential calculus.It was destined to fail.

They killed the only man who could unite Iraq and now it must be divided into three separate versions of Islam.

We have to ask a very pertinate question here.Is the death and violence any less under US rule as opposed to Saddham's rule?Saddham just reflected the culture that bred him,and Iraq will be more violent and ruthless without him..
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 28 June 2007 11:39:11 PM
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One can say it's another Vietnam, but to start there is really ignoring the most important part in all this - the people.

The people of Vietnam would be much better off if the US didn't pull out, it's now a communist dump like all other communist dumps, where the people have little rights.

As a member of Amnesty, I only last month received an email about a priest in Hanoi sentenced to ten years for criticising the government.

Say what you want about the US, and Bush, but you could spit in his face and get no more than a six month suspended sentence. He won't order his cronies to kill your family in the middle of the night.

In short, his values are good, for he is a westerner.

One has only to look at Germany, Japan, and South Korea, to see that wherever the Americans go, the nation is better off for it.

The difference between North and South Korea alone is enough surely to ram this point home to anyone who doesn't see it themselves.

South = rich

North = poor

Iraq is totally different, and as one of the more enlightened members of this forum, ARJAY, has noted above, the culture of the Iraqi's is their biggest downfall.

It may be uncomfortable to hear, but Arabs have no work ethic. They are tribal.

They NEED a dictator, like all Arab states.

They aren't ready for democracy, they see it as mob rule - as it has been since Hamas' election win.

Westerners don't see democracy in such a way.

No matter who has the majority in our countries we don't allow them to undermine the democratic process, or trample on minorities rights.

Most people against the Iraq war are really just against Bush and his administration, as no one could truly say Iraq was a good place under Saddam Hussein.

The racism, the sectarianism, of the Iraqi's, is sickening.

They're behaviour is in step with tribal Arab cultural and religious values however, which is the problem.

I disagree with the author about the US retreating...
Posted by Benjamin, Friday, 29 June 2007 11:27:39 AM
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...I see this Iraq war just the beginning in a global war on Islam, once western leaders recognise that it really is Islamic values we are fighting.

We ought to be upfront with Muslims when they accuse the west of this, because it is.

Even in our own countries Muslims feel attacked, as we don't allow polygamy, or apostates to be killed. We don't allow homosexuals to be stoned to death.

We recoil at the burqa, as women are people here, not sex objects or baby machines.

We are appalled at Sharia, at the value of women being less in Islamic courts, or losing one's hand for stealing.

We don't accept that non-Muslims are inferior beings, or that none should be worshipped but Allah under Islam.

It is these things we went to war for, it is girls schools in Afghanistan now opened that give us the food we need mentally to keep going, for we are fighting for what's right.

We need more wars, against those who don't share our values yet want our nuclear technology.

The west is open, which is why it is our people that are the inventors, the scientists, the thinkers.

Islamic states promote the opposite, which is why Islamic societies have no thinkers, scientists (unless trained in the west).

It is so clear who lives better, as refugee flows prove. The western world is open, tolerant, democratic, the non-west is an intolerant, savage, racist wasteland.

This war, like those against Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, is another neccessary war.

I predict Iran will be bombed soon.

Sadly, much of what happened last century will happen again, although this time it won't be against only states, but an entire ideology.

Our leaders may need something like a nuclear terrorist attack to realise it, but they will realise that Islamic values are incompatible with human rights.

The war is only in it's earliest stage...
Posted by Benjamin, Friday, 29 June 2007 11:33:02 AM
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