Dear Brushy :) I'm not against reason nor history, they are my greatest allies.

I'm only 'bored' as you put it, by your continued mention of the 'Islamic' debt which is in fact about 'hellenistic' reasoning.

It's just that the way you put it suggests we owe something special to Islam, when in fact we owe it to a simple coincidence of history.
The Muslims were nothing more than the 'vehicle' of the reasoning you champion. Hence, I urge you to champion the substance rather than the means by which it came. So, we owe nothing to Islam, but it may be argued that we owe something philosophically to "Muslims" due to them passing on HELLENIST reasoning. But this says nothing good or bad about Islam or Muslims than their coincidental historical role.

Still, I don't think we need go further than 1 Corinthians 15 for a dose of 'reasoning' and logic par excellence. Paul develops a theme based on very real, cold hard logic "IF Christ is not raised, then we are still in our sins" etc.."We of all men are most to be pitied"...etc..

In terms of philosophy of life, Ecclesiastes suprasses anything I know of, including Socrates. Brushy...have you read Ecclesiastes?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=1&version=31

There u go..chapter one.

Who needs Socrates :)

BOAZ_DAVID,

Earlier, I did ask away when you invited me to ask you a question, because you don't answer questions. No reply.

This thread. Religion is a different construct to God or Jesus. Christian or Muslim, if God exists, human institutions would be separate to it. In Middle-Eastern-hebrew-Classical-Roman-Christian thread of history, the orgins of our "style of religion" start in Sumer, in cities like Ur, after the Garden Culure Period. Christianity may have borrowed Joshua [aka Jesus] as a centre piece, but the institutaionalise Church is a separate entity, as is, Islam, which unified the Arabs.

Though I am an old retired cockie, Boaz, I am still a qualified historian. Therefore we must clash, Boaz, as can be seen by your lack of interest in any mention of St Thomas Aquinas, both the most illustrious Churchman, as well as one of the greatest philosophers.

Furthermore, why he is the greatest is because of his acceptance of Socratic or Hellenistic Reasoning which makes us what we are today - not so much the Bible.

Therefore while you quote passages from the Bible I quote them from history, which is not based on faith but on fact.

All the same, Boaz, there is no reason why we can't still be friends while still having a shot at each other.

Cheers - George C - WA

Martin and Boaz , the first record that mentions Jesus was written by Tacitus and Tacitus only scorns christians for their behaviour yet demonstrates empathy as the Roman state punished all Christians as Christians were the arsons in the great fire of Rome. Other than the Harry potter literature some of which formed the new testament Jesus did not exist.

That is to say nobody noticed Jesus in the time he supposed to have existed. Even Pontius Pilatus who allegedly in the NT went against Roman protocol and tried Jesus himself rather than let Jesus be tried in a legal court does not report Jesus. Herods state a meticulous record keeper also had never heard of Jesus. Maybe they slipped behind the filling cabinet as did Moses flight into Egypt which is a complete surprise to the Egyptians as they never heard of this moses character either.

You believe Jesus existed, you have faith. It is not moral to want other people to believe it to. Even if Jesus did coincedently did exist every piece of information you have of Jesus is fiction.

Not that you will care because monotheists are only interested in monologue not dialogue.

West,

Good post. Also had Pilate acted some strange way and wanted to it keep out of the History books [unlikely they were like the NAZIs recorded everything]; then, some neighbouring country would have recorded the event [no record]. As I mentioned in an earlier post, much of we know about Egyptian history comes from the Greeks. I was told this personally by a visiting Eyptologist at Singapore's Asian Civilization Museum, where I am a member. Same would go for the Romans.

The region where Jesus is said to have lived did have its wondering Messiahs, who spoke of time, when the Jews would have their own Kingdom, without the Romans and before them the Greeks.

It is unlikely Pilate would do anything to risk his job like causing a riot, as we have noted before, by having an execution on the Passover. The Prefect's job was too lucrative and according to Cicero senior officials could be tried themselves for doing the wrong thing.

Thankyou Oliver
- and please keep those insights coming, your contributions are very interseting and enjoyable.

Back to science and Boaz , really consider what you are asserting. A god that creates the universe in all its dimensions. Yet a god that and knows about it and everything until the end of time could not predict NASA, Mars and Moon landings and does not understand the logical and scientific concept of a control subject. Mars and the moon the places humans could not have got to without science. Mars and the moon have no big J's signed upon them, no crucifix erected and the natures of such astro bodies not described in the Bible.

Genisis at the very least should have described the evolution of elements through to living organisms , the fabric of space and time and the ontology of everything before even contemplating the prototheist mumbo jumbo. That is of course if the Bible was not fiction.

The bible is fair enough for Dungeons and Dragons but not for brain surgery or defragging the PC.