Tommy lad

Bruce Pascoe used the word 'civilization' in the last sentence of his article as a rhetorical flourish. Your bookish definition of 'civilzation' is interesting academically but irrelevant to this debate. Nothing hangs on it. The point is do you agree that "the development of a system of ponds, wetlands, channels, weirs and fish and eel traps along the Tyrendarra lava flow in the Mount Eccles/Lake Condah area may well be of 'outstanding heritage value'"? And if so what would you do about it in the future?

Bruce was merely saying that Indigenous life was well developed and in the instances he cited, "Aboriginal people were not feckless and innocent nomads". He merely asked the question: why do we maintain the myth of a crude civilisation meandering hopelessly across the continent? Why indeed?

While your bookish definition leads you to the view that there was no civilisation in western Victoria, don't overlook the contemporary relevance in terms of land ownership. Aboriginal people did not simply walk away from their fishing grounds and cede their land to the white settlers. The noble savage image has served whites' interests well but it is being challenged here. What's your problem with that?

As for your question: do we now all move to Western Victoria and become eel farmers? Tommy, I think you would need to learn a great deal about how to do it. I know some Indigenous people who could teach you!

Bruce Pascoe writes ..'This country is unique but we can't bring ourselves to admit it because we have to believe the Indigenes walked away from it, left the field in awe of the marvellous European'.
From the records of the 19 NSW colonial counties spreading out from Sydney Cove, it would have to be acknowledged that the Eora, the Cadgigal, the Darkinjung and the other clans around early Sydney were in awe, who wouldn't be with axe heads and knives the superior technology beckoning. It isn't to denigrate the Indigenes and it isn't to say that all were in awe. Put yourself in their place and sheer curiosity would prevail. It would be interesting to research the place of the early corn crops along the Hawkesbury as another competitor, in this case against the traditionally harvested root crops of the Indigenes that were displaced on the riverbank.
It is fascinating in retrospect to contemplate that as famine gripped the colony in 1789-90 what the colonists would have done with a nearby eel farming technology if the West Victorian reality had been available. Before plundering it you can almost be convinced that wiser heads might have discerned that this deserved recognition, a proper exchange underpinned be an agreement, perhaps even a treaty..and we all would have been the richer for it.

Well done Bruce,

As an Indigenous teacher I congratulate you on encouraging people to examine the evidence rather than believe the uninformed perceptions of current and past generations.

Hopefully it will change the social view of people. When I enter a room, people see me from the view of an Indigenous male, as such they bring up their ideas that we were primative, 'stone age' wandering savages with no moral, intellectual or rational understanding. Not as an Murri with two degrees and a wealth of experience and expertise to offer to this country. Perceptions change peoples ideals and expectations of others. I recall a moment when my cousin visited my work for a day (keen to wait in the air-conditioning). Because he was young, waiting around on a work day and dressed casually, my boss thought he was just an unemployed black young person. When we finally asked him what he was doing, he was amazed to find out that he was a reserve grade League player for a NRL team down south, in his 3rd year of a Law degree and could speak Mandarin and Cantonese. We can base our perspectives on perceptions of the social view rather than learn for ourselves.

Sadly, many questions of the forms of technology, societal structures and amazing strategies and techniques used to survive this harsh country for thousands of years were lost due to past policies of extermination and ignorance. Only those Anthropologist that worked with remaining nations of the interior were able to glean some of the walth of knowledge.

Looking forward to the forum discussions, even from those ignorant few , maybe this article will help change a small portion of your heart to consider what every Indigenous kid lives with as a socially constructed image of them.

Regards,

Offer, offer, it was not an unreasonable offer. A pillbox crisp, that French git. The spikes he left in the bathroom, and I never heard from him again.

You may pronounce us guilty a thousand times over, but the goddess of the eternal court of history will smile and tear to tatters the brief of the state prosecutor and the sentence of this court, for she acquits us. Condemn me, condemn me, condemn me? History will absolve ...

If your grandmother or any other member of your family should die whilst in the shelter, put them outside, but remember to tag them first for identification purposes.

And did those feet in ancient time, walk upon western Victoria's volcanic plain green. And was the holy lamb of God on western Victoria's pleasant eel-farming arrangements seen?

And did the countenance divine shine forth upon those clouded hills. And was Jerusalem builded there among those dark Satanic mills?

You don't have to be weird to be wired and you don't have to be an American brand. My heart and I agree ... so pay your rates.

Dear Steven L Meyer

I would like to address the one point you raised about Muslims not having a wishy washy approach to sex drugs and alchohol.

What they actually have is a disgraceful attitude to sex, and a rigid 'taskmaster' approach to alchohol, lets leave drugs aside for the moment.

TEMPORARY MARRIAGE/(prostitution by another name)Mut'a marriage.

Please refer to this Muslim discussion on the matter.
http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/frq/mutah10.htm

You will note the the main writer simply digs his heels in and 'denies' the undeniable i.e. that later Quran verses abrogate earlier ones where they differ. This is pointed out by a reader.
The later verses clearly advocate 'payment(dowery)' for the sexual use of a woman for an indeterminate time, and this can be (and often was) for the duration of a single nite.

The other point to note in that discussion is that even in denying 'temporary' marriage, the main author also SUPPORTS the 'sexual use of captive slave girls' as one authorized/legal male female relationships and provides Quranic support/proof for this.

This wikipedia article also provides much insight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_Mut'ah

That article can be summarized in that Sunni's believe it is 'haram' forbidden, Shia (today) believe it is allowed.

Bilal Skaf (according to Shia) would not be guilty of any sin.
-He captured the girls.
-He had sex with them.
-Such captives have no say in this matter.
Surah 23:5-6

In summary, the greatest danger we face in Australia today (in terms of terrorism) is the possibility of an infection of Aboriginal minds with Islam, and its associated calls to 'fight' non Muslims who have 'turned you out of your homes'. (Surah 2:191)

Imagine if the lingering resentment of dispossessed Indigenous people is linked up to Al Qaeda and the Quran?
http://forum.mpacuk.org/archive/index.php?t-8808.html (please read this)

David

Quote: "...the greatest danger we face in Australia today (in terms of terrorism) is the possibility of an infection of Aboriginal minds with Islam, and its associated calls to 'fight' non Muslims..."

Two cruel prejudices bundled as one paranoia. Two outrageous stereotypes wrapped up in shameful fear-mongering.

Franklin D Roosevelt in a different context said, "... the only thing we have to fear is fear itself -- nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes..." His speech seems still to have contemporary application.

You are manufacturing an unreasoning, unjustified terror which seems to have paralysed your intellect. On the other hand watch your back - Tony Mundine is out there somewhere.