aqvarivs,
Again, I agree with most of what you say. However by my reference to Treadgold I did not mean an application of the geopolitical, demographic etc. situation, but rather of the general idea — where West is understood as a cultural heritage rather than a territory or population. Perhaps the word "countries" appearing in the quote was misleading.

For instance, I would have no with problems signing the St. Petersburg Declaration (http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI_Blog/21/The-St-Petersburg-Declaration posted by bigmal) by "secular Muslims" (never mind that the term looks like a contradictio in se), and I think so would any other "westerner", even though I would tactfully refrain from pointing out that this is a "response to the doctrinal innovation of the West" (the Enlightenment correction to applied Christianity).

The Treadgold thesis obviously holds for science, technology and mathematics: the East did not develop parallel alternatives, like they did with religion and perennial philosophy in general, but they "responded to innovations of the West" by appropriating them, building on them, and keeping on developing them further. I think the same might happen with the western idea of Enlightenment used as a correction to Islam, the same as it had been used as a correction to Christianity. First, of course, at an abstract, intellectual, level. Whether this will happen in the form of Euroislam (Bassam Tibi), as something specifically American (St. Petersburg Declaration) or in traditional Islamic countries, that is a different question.

Goodthief,

Good informative analysis as usual.

Boaz,

At least you can find 20 + verses in the Quran to free slaves. There is not a single one in your scripture. According to the OT its an acceptable practice for a brother to enslave a brother (Ishmael the son of the 'slave' should not inherit).
There is also a minor event in North Africa in the 7th century where Christians went to Muslims leadership to exempt slaves from the taxes since slavery was in the 'heart of christianity (refer to Egyptian Christian historian Dr Milad Hanna's work).

Not to mention that slavery was allowed in the US until 2 centuries ago.
Intellectual dishonesty and double standards are not good qualities 'brother' Boaz. Don't worry, I will be here watching you fall on your sword everytime.

George, good post. I think Treadgold may be understood in broad terms with associations but, if say we choose mathematics, can we suggest parrellel alternatives as we can with the associations of religion or as western institutions do with the geopoliticalisation of philosophies; as in “western/Greek” vs. “Asian”. Or speak in terms of era's as defining experience over time equals enlightenment.
Some would suggest “Asia” and especially “Mid-East” had a medical and scientific enlightenment much sooner than did Europe but, were non starters when it came to economic industrialisation. Again with such conversions and reflections on societies one of the key elements is how accessable is the political and religious market, how open to ideas. Did you read the Iran piece? As a personal and cultural experience one can see the effects as a society begins to close up and isolate itself from the influences of the world around them. The “brain drain” just staggers a country and further reduces it's ability to recover from any form of extremism. Whether that is religious or political in nature or intent. The same thing is happening in Iraq. It isn't the Shia/Sunni battle for dominance in as much as the true intellectuals, the creators, the inventors, the middle class have abandoned their country for survival in a more open environment. These people need the open exchange of ideas to function and to contribute to their societies. This leaves happily for the religious and political extremist a population of the less advantaged and educated hostage to the whims and dictates of the new leadership. Given the opportunity for industrialisation of the Islamic countries, which in the main are single resource, those societies will by themselves demand more open exchange with the rest of the world as is “the sleeping giant”, China today.
Education and money is of no working value to anyone confined by isolationist policies due to religion and politics beyond their control. One needs to be tested and to be confronted by ideas. Multiplicity.

Infinite diversity in infinite combinations. Or why there is 101 flavours of ice cream. :-)

Philip Tang,

Muslims in the 7th century were the least suspect to burn books.
A Nobel Prize winner in literature and historian, Dr Naguib Mahfouz, have actually documented that during this era of Islamic enlightment, Muslims used to trade the prisoners of the Byzantine empire for books in literature and physics.
(Google Dr Mahfouz historical references on teh Byzantine empire).

If you were talking about today's Taliban Muslims burning books I could have believed it.

Yvonne, Yes, of course we’ll fall out over the nature of God, but we needn’t fall far. Since I believe God is a person, I have to regard your different view (atheist?) as false. And vice versa, of course. But there usually won’t be much point saying so.

By the way, I have a couple of beefs about Buddhism, which you seem to know a lot about. May be just ignorance on my part, of course. I’ll mention them in case you can illuminate me:

i) It seems to discourage strong emotion. This seems unrealistic and unhealthy. I prefer the earthiness of the big religions that strive with human chemistry.

ii) Not sure it does the world any good. It does little or no harm, which is nice, but it doesn’t seem very dynamic. Am I off-track, here?

bigmal: fantastic link to speech by Secular Islam, thank you.

Unimportant: You say to Boaz, “there is a difference between giving someone information so they can make an informed judgment and persuading them to follow”. Different, yes, but perhaps not so different that persuading has to be wrong. Life would be dull if all we ever did was inform each other. I think taking things further, as we do in ordinary conversation – “Come and see this band, they’re incredible, you’d have to be off your rocker to miss them, they’re really going places!” – makes life interesting. We just have to be careful to respect the freedom of the person we’re talking to. I think the problem is that persuasion is risky because it can so easily cross the “consent line”. Speaking of sex, I think flirtation and the use of charm is more interesting than, say, just giving the woman information. This can be done with a strong sense of her personal sovereignty. Hope no-one minds the parallel.

Pax,

pax wrote "i) It(budhhism) seems to discourage strong emotion"

Hope you dont mind if I write a comment. Emotion is actually enhanced...as 'pure' happiness...

Siddhartha, as we know a hindu prince filled with compassion for people suffering from all manner of lifes conditions that triggered the drive of his life(destiny) which to find an end to it(suffering).

His answer...not very well described in translations to english, but meditate into point of becoming one with everything around him...

Little example...go outside into nature(garden) and first stop all your senses ie sight, hearing etc all thats left is a state of feeling...bring to simply 'like' of 'dislike'range of response to what your attention is on...

Then hold a dried dead twig in your hands...and become aware of your 'feeling'(not touch) to it...

Then touch a living leaf of plant(still attached to the plant)...and do same...

then try to describe the difference in the 'feeling'...

lot of people after struggling to describe the difference eventually said same thing...the twigg felt 'nothingness'...leaf felt 'energized' and best described as 'love'...

Buddha's answer here is find peace within yourself...what worked for him is meditation in forrest among that energy of love that plants have he could connect to which made him 'happy'...and otherwise when engaging with life's 'needed' then 'duty'(ie removing desire so doing only what needs be done...eg what what shirt did you wear today...if it was one you 'liked' then desire was main component...if the need was be 'clothed' in public and so any clothing that covered was equally acceptable to you at time of choice then you just removed desire and made it part of 'duty' to what you had to achieve today...

buddha understood that 'desire' causes 'suffering'...remove one cause ceases the other which then leads to a state of 'happiness' despite life's happenings...which many buddhist try to achieve...does it work...sure does but for one problem...does one want to give up his 'identity of self'(ie what makes you you) for happiness in selfless action as a duty to...work, eat, sleep...little thought and it becomes clearer...

Hope I explained this adequately...

Sam