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The Forum > Article Comments > Hicks gag affects our liberties > Comments

Hicks gag affects our liberties : Comments

By David Flint, published 10/4/2007

The order that prevents David Hicks from speaking to the media seems draconian, because his freedom to speak is our freedom to hear.

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Can't you stick to the point you are trying to make without having to kick those who felt genuinely concerned about DH's treatment? And how can you know what motivated him to opt for a plea bargain anymore than his Dad? You silly, silly man.
Posted by BrettWalker, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:16:14 AM
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The commission accepts evidence that has been gained under coercion. Forget Australia, find me a court in the free world that would admit such evidence. I suppose this is one of those 'technicalities' that make up the 'indulgences towards the accused', which are so central to the Australian legal system, you think so little of.

I find it interesting that you can dismiss all the charges of abuse so flippantly, but get hung up on a gag order that is unenforceable in this Country.
Posted by DLC, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:33:24 AM
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There was a push to have Muhammad Dawood returned to Australia so that he could be tried under our laws. That group has expressed concerns about the gag order being part of Mr Dawood's guilty plea. Mr Ruddock has informed the debate by saying that Australian laws do not apply nor enforce gag orders.

It would appear that members of our own legal club have scant knowledge of Australia's laws.
Posted by Sage, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:40:51 AM
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What an interesting piece. Titled and billed as concerning our "freedom to hear" we are held captive for two thirds of the piece while the article is instead used a a vehicle for another in the endless series of peoples' pontifications on Hicks' guilt/trial/Military v civil regulations etc. etc. I would paraphrase BrettWalker's post rather as "Naughty, naughty man".
Posted by Romany, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 11:06:52 AM
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I agree that the gag order is grossly inappropriate. Freedom of speech and the freedom to hear about things that are in the public interest are indeed cornerstones of democracy.

How on earth could the implementation of a gag order be part of the role any sort of court or guilt/innocence and punishment determining process? Surely it is not within the role of a court of any sort to impose this sort of thing!

This is just another example of the US government stepping right outside of democracy whenever it suits it.

But of course we shouldn’t be in the slightest bit surprised, as it is certainly in keeping with the whole Hicks/Guantanamo saga.
Posted by Ludwig, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 2:06:53 PM
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Keep digging Flinty soon you will have a hole big enough for yourself, Alan ( Tolerence ) Jones, Hollow Howard, Daisey Downer and the rest of the Regime.
But I also detect a hint of an attempt to spruce up your record as events move in a direction that will do nothing to embellish your craven carping.
How frustrating that you have been unable to influence the major debates in Australia precisely because of the very freedom you belatedly profess to champion, namely freedom of speech.
You are the Popinjay that the Monty Python Show searched so hard to find. Your talent is out of the closet; politics and the law come a poor second to you as an entertainer. On with grease paint and be damned.
Bruce Haigh
Posted by Bruce Haigh, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 2:17:14 PM
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Hicks is lucky that the media published his plight. I wonder how many people are locked up, under suspicion, tortured and even murdered by official authorities that we never hear about? I wonder how many political prisoners, who do not have as many loud friends as Hicks, have been detained in this manner and have never lived to tell the story?
Posted by vivy, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 3:07:47 PM
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No, I've lost interest in him. I was concerned about his lack of a trial but he's had his day in court and while late, better than never. We do have a important election coming up and I'd rather it was fought on issues such as climate change and Iraq; not on some silly little man who watched too many video's.
Posted by Netab, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 3:40:08 PM
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Mr.Flint you state: "While the military commissions have to be fair and conform to international standards."
The reactionary and treacherous 'big business' media at work justifying and applying a "cover" a veneer of respectibility for illegal detention, torture, and the attack on basic democratic rights that have evolved over centuries going back to the Magna Carta. All this from the same media, applying the "standards" used to launch an illegal and aggressive war, endlessly promoting the lies that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Millions saw through these transparent lies but the media did not?
These are kangeroo courts in every sense of the word. Whereby torture over very long periods is accepted as good coin. And guess what? People will say anything or confess to anything to escape more torture. The same bully boys supply firstly the victim, the lawyer, the prosecutor, and the judge. Supposedly it is all fair and "standards" have applied with no conflict of interest.
Here is a big call, the writer tells us "the military commissions have to conform to international standards." What international standards are you talking about in that backwater located out of sight - Guantanamo. In reality, basic democratic rights are being undermined in the US, UK, and Australia.
Posted by johncee1945, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 6:25:41 PM
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Hicks was lucky to be caught by the the Yanks.Had the Taliban eventually discovered how shallow their "Golden Haired Boy" was,death would have been his welcomed relief from life.

Let's face it,David Hicks wanted excitement and tribal bonding that would free him from the complexities of our society which gave him security and a life style.

There is a price for civilisation and security which we afforded David Hicks,and he didn't want to pay the price of that umbrella of civilisation.Now he wants to profit from the sweat and toil of those whom he sought to destroy.

Traitor,is too kind a word.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 9:45:56 PM
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Hicks may have been shallow in his belief, but his friends here in the West stood by him. It is over for him now, isn't it?
Posted by vivy, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 12:53:10 AM
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While the left media cry for Hicks to publish the horrors of his experience at the hands of the American torturers, the British Government is restricting their armed servicemen and servicewomen from selling their stories of torture at the hands of the Iranians. I haven't seen any emotional outpouring or championing of rights and shouts of anti-democracy from the Australian press. Are not our liberties being equally stymied by our loss of not hearing of Iranian torture.
Or is it because the British armed service personnel wore uniforms and were performing in the name of their country and therefore can never achieve the folk hero status of a Hicks or be used by the left media to batter away at the Howard government?.

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/couriernews/news/334130,3_1_EL10_A1BRITS_S1.article

and for the Muslim perspective. An interesting twist.
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=12574
Posted by aqvarivs, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 4:26:09 AM
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It's about the election. Don't be so clueless.
Posted by Steel, Thursday, 12 April 2007 12:05:48 AM
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Prof Flint -

The more holes you dig like this one, the more likely it is that Mr Howard will fall into one of them. Have a care!
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:02:56 AM
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David Hick's plea of guilty is not an indication of guilt. The 15 British sailors recently captured by Iranians were admitting to being within Iranian territory within days of capture. Hicks has had to endure over five years of coercion, and then be faced by an indefinate further period before facing a trial. No evidence of any wrongdoing has been presented, although the Americans gave had five years to prepare a case.

When he returns to Australia, David Hicks will be the only prisoner who has not had any trial, and against whom no evidence has been shown. He will also be prevented from defending himself in any way for 12 months.

This is a breakdown of the most basic legal principles, and is destructive of our civilisation rather than part of any real war.
Posted by Corfe, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:26:34 AM
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Corfe, then a man of such high moral principle should not of made an out of court settlement for early release and no trial. Your man of high moral principle should have demanded a trial and willingly endured his time to argue his innocents and demand of his accusers proof on all charges. Your man of high moral principle should of stuck it out and won his case and then demand compensation from the USA for false imprisonment and the years of constant torture the left want the public to acknowledge as having taken place against Hicks(WITH OUT PROOF). An innocent man of high moral principle would do all these things. Not take the first deal and run to the arms of mommy Australia whom he threw over for a taste of Islamic jihad.
He's not allowed to profit from his excursion into terrorism for one year...ohhhhhh, how terrible. All Australia must now suffer from the loss of such a benefit. It will take Hicks that long to craft enough lies to fill his years as a heroic jihadist and victim of American culture of torture no matter how many Leftie ghost writers he uses.
Admit it. Your going to want to have a good cry after reading of his heroic feats in the face of the enemy and the stoic strength he showed through out his imprisonment and torture.
Posted by aqvarivs, Thursday, 12 April 2007 1:01:38 PM
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“This is a breakdown of the most basic legal principles, and is destructive of our civilisation rather than part of any real war.”

Absolutely Corfe. And this is many orders of magnitude more significant than anything that Hicks may have done.
Posted by Ludwig, Thursday, 12 April 2007 1:22:09 PM
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aqvarivs you said:
"Your man of high moral principle should of stuck it out and won his case and then demand compensation from the USA for false imprisonment and the years of constant torture the left want the public to acknowledge as having taken place against Hicks(WITH OUT PROOF). An innocent man of high moral principle would do all these things".

The world looks so fair and just from where you sit in the social world. You must either be a multi-millionaire or a member of the legal profession yourself. Which is it?
Posted by vivy, Thursday, 12 April 2007 3:18:05 PM
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jeez vivy why the either or, your obviously a person of limited imagination. Can't I be a millionaire lawyer? Can't I be a millionaire lawyer who made his millions defending heroic and stand up Australians like Hicks in their battle against the Americans and their culture of torture. Couldn't I be a Muslum millionaire lawyer working to free the Hicks and my brother jihadist of the world from having their freedoms curtailed and their right to holy war upheld in the face of democracy.
Don't limit my aspirations in your world of victimhood. I'm a victim too you know. I'll never get to live my dream of killing innocent civilians and using religion as justification. I'll never have the chance of selling my story to Australians hungering to share in "feeling" my gross criminality. There'll be no parades or statues for me. What about my feelings? Aren't I worthy of angst for my gross failures. Who's crying for me vivy? What about how the world and people like you victimize me? Can't you just once feel my pain?
Posted by aqvarivs, Thursday, 12 April 2007 5:25:00 PM
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aqvarivs
I think that it is nice for you that you have managed to get through life without too much anger and resentment. I think that your feelings of contentment are the direct consequence of your personal life experiences which in turn reflect your social circumstances. I think that the life experiences which Hicks has encountered, that led him to hold such strong and violent views, are a direct consequence of his social circumstances. I am suggesting that we take this opportunity to learn about how some people experience the social world rather than turn him into another one of our social demons. He is not an anomaly.
Posted by vivy, Friday, 13 April 2007 6:29:32 AM
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Dear David Flint

I agree with comments that your essay has the wrong title. There is so much that is wrong with the essay I won’t try to suggest a more appropriate title.

I have become used to the clumsy use of propaganda tools like the word “industry” being attached to any matter of concern. Frankly, I am sick of these devices and I think they are probably irritating to lots of readers. You may claim to support free speech, but you ‘instruct’ the reader what to think in a most insulting way and you attempt to smuggle-in ideas that you leave undeclared. Did you go to the same school as Ted Lapkin, Colin Rubenstein, Andrew Bolt and Imre Salusinszky?

Australians should be talking about what has happened to David Hicks without the crutches you seem to rely on to support your arguments. I don’t think that what David Hicks did was very smart or good, but lots of people offer to fight in armies in other countries. If David Hicks is anti Semitic I would probably have a strong dislike for those views, but many others in this country share these views. It is what has been done to him that we should be talking about.

According to the Nuremberg Principles David Hicks was an “enemy combatant” and not a “terrorist”. He was a Taliban foot soldier. He did not even shoot anyone. Dropping in the name of Willie Brigitte who was charged with planning terrorist offences does not automatically make David Hicks a terrorist too. Guilt by association by mentioning unlike items on the same list is not very convincing.

Regards
Willy Bach
http://willybachpoeticthoughts.blogspot.com
Posted by willy, Friday, 13 April 2007 12:59:57 PM
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Dear David Flint (continued)

Many people, including most of the most respected lawyers, say that they had no confidence in the Military Commissions because of the composition of the court, the use of retrospective charges and because the court accepts hearsay evidence and evidence gained under duress. This falls far short of ‘the rule of law’ and you should know that fact. No American citizens would be tried in this way. You also seem to ignore all the threats, mistreatment and torture that David Hicks suffered. David Hicks had little choice but agree to a plea bargain, but it should be noted that the prosecution and the Howard government were anxiously promoting a plea bargain. They wanted anything but a true test of the Military Commission, which would have discredited the Bush administration in the eyes of the world.

I can just imagine what the Australian public would have done to John Howard if the death sentence had been handed down in David Hicks’ case. They are quite aware of the cynical way in which John Howard and his Ministers have toyed with David Hicks’ life. They now want David Hicks home because they want to defuse the issue of his treatment in time for the federal election. You say: “It is not that long ago a wartime conviction for a lesser offence could have resulted in the maximum punishment”. No one believes that we are living in “wartime”. It is we that deliver war to other less fortunate peoples, while we live without any serious threat to our human security and well being.

The sooner we have a government that really does care about the ‘rule of law’ and free expression the better we will all be. I hope you will try to write in a factual way and express your views with respect for your readers. This has just been another reminder why I will never buy a newspaper owned by RM.

Regards
Willy Bach
http://willybachpoeticthoughts.blogspot.com/
Posted by willy, Friday, 13 April 2007 1:04:36 PM
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vivy, what ever your sell'n, I ain't buy'n.

Lay thy finger thus, and let thy soul be instructed.
Mark me with what violence she first loved the Moor,
but for bragging and telling her fantastical lies:
and will she love him still for prating? let not
thy discreet heart think it. Her eye must be fed;
and what delight shall she have to look on the
devil? When the blood is made dull with the act of
sport, there should be, again to inflame it and to
give satiety a fresh appetite, loveliness in favour,
sympathy in years, manners and beauties; all which
the Moor is defective in: now, for want of these
required conveniences, her delicate tenderness will
find itself abused, begin to heave the gorge,
disrelish and abhor the Moor; very nature will
instruct her in it and compel her to some second
choice. Now, sir, this granted,--as it is a most
pregnant and unforced position--who stands so
eminent in the degree of this fortune as Cassio
does? a knave very voluble; no further
conscionable than in putting on the mere form of
civil and humane seeming, for the better compassing
of his salt and most hidden loose affection? why,
none; why, none: a slipper and subtle knave, a
finder of occasions, that has an eye can stamp and
counterfeit advantages, though true advantage never
present itself; a devilish knave. Besides, the
knave is handsome, young, and hath all those
requisites in him that folly and green minds look
after: a pestilent complete knave; and the woman
hath found him already.

willy, poetic thoughts? Is that another name for hidden agenda? You shouldn't accuse in others what you yourself do. Your post is riddled with exaggeration and purposeful misrepresentation. You can imagine how you will. It's your conspiracy.
Posted by aqvarivs, Friday, 13 April 2007 1:30:56 PM
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Willy

“The sooner we have a government that really does care about the ‘rule of law’ and free expression the better we will all be.”

Yep.

It is just stonkering to think of the fundamental abuses of basic rights and principles of democracy that Bush has allowed to happen over the whole Hicks and Guantanamo Bay affair, and that Howard has gone along with almost all the way.

One of the worst abuses of basic principle came right at the end – the gag order on Hicks – a complete removal of his right to speak about his experiences for 12 months.

What an utterly blatant antidemocratic and anti-human-rights move…..again done with the full support of Howard, or at least with no objection expressed after the fact.

Enormous damage has been done to the foundations of democracy in the eyes of democratic and non-democratic peoples around the world.

Even if Hicks is as bad as his worst detractors think he is, he ain’t but a tiny fraction as bad as Bush and Howard, for their blatant infringement of several of the cornerstones of democracy and basic decency.
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 13 April 2007 5:09:10 PM
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