Philip Tang: Frankly, I don't care what happens to the ratbags, so long as they don't affect the good guys or expect such people to give them handouts. If they do affect everyone else, then they should be dealt with through the criminal justice system. I'm sick of the lowest common denominator holding everyone else to ransom, as though we have to bribe them to only make our lives a little bit intolerable.

ena: Whether they stay on or not because there are or aren't other options is not the issue. No one makes people misbehave (and this misbehaviour starts in primary school, long before such children could do an apprenticeship even if they wanted to). That is a personal choice, and it's about time these clowns stopped holding everyone else to ransom. There might not be other avenues for them, but that's hardly the fault of some kid who wants to learn (or teach!) but has to endure these ratbags on a daily basis. The world does not owe them a living as "protection" money from their antics, although people are increasingly having to pay a form of protection money in the form of private school fees to escape such other people.

Whatever happens though, never blame people for their own misbehaviour. It's always someone else's fault, unless of course you knuckled down to acquire money, education or some other secretly (or not so secretly) and jealously despised asset. In that case, you're a fair target.

You are correct about their behaviour, it is their own responsibility. However, accepting that there is a reason why kids who would once have left school are still there, is not the same as excusing their behaviour.
And, you know, Shorbe, I don't know about you, but when I was young (and even now that I am old) I sometimes behaved badly, particularly if I was trapped in a situation that made me feel stupid and useless and undervalued.
That's perhaps the essence of the difference between the underprivileged and the privileged, those with money can buy their way out of an unpleasant situation, while those without are much more stuck. It may be fair enough to escape if you can, but I do find the sense of superiority those who have the means to get out, sometimes exhibit towards those who do not, rather unattractive.

ena

I do hope you're on a P&F committee. The wisdom, life experience, concern and respect for others, makes for successful relationships between schools, parents, teachers, administration, communities.

If only all schools in Australia had the input of community members such as yourself.

I first started attending a Christian school in kinder because the local state school wouldn't let me in because I was a month and half too young. When I first started my school had only recently moved campus and consisted of 2 buildings. I continued there until grade 4, when I changed to a public school for 12 months. It was a complete culture change and a waste. The year was spent revising all the work I had done in grade 2... going over things such as 2 times table and basic spelling. You may think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. It was at that school that I first learnt to swear, was first subjected to bullying and first learnt what it was to be hated before someone even knew who you were. At the end of that 12 months my parents sent me back to the Christian school. by now my school consisted of 4 buildings and educated up to Grade 10. We had what was then considered a huge student body of 97. The improvements to my school were achieved through a lot of fundraising, while still fundraising for other charities. We were closely associated with John Arul orphanages in India, and supported other causes in our local community. By the time I left in grade 12 last year my school was still expanding, with a student body of 386, a gym/performing arts centre, library, and a plot of land out the back for continuing horticultural studies. This year it became the largest school in our district, and yet we still had to hold 6 months of fundraising just to get enough bricks so finish our buildings. Yes, government funding was a blessing, but the school community is the reason so much has been achieved.
Yes bullying occurs, but teachers are actively trying to stamp it out. Funnily enough, and I say this as an eye witness, it is students from both backgrounds that bully, and the school treats both groups with equal discipline.

ena: With very, very few exceptions, anyone can afford to send their kids to a private school. There are plenty of kids at private schools of Vietnamese or Greek origin (amongst others) whose parents or grandparents came to this country with nothing, including no English language ability. They worked hard (often in their own businesses) to send their kids to private schools so they could have better lives.

There's no such thing as not having the means. There's not having the balls, or not having the work ethic, but there's no such thing as not having the means. Personally, I find the sense of entitlement many people in this country exhibit to be rather unattractive.

Shorbe, you claim that "with very, very few exceptions, anyone can afford to send their kids to a private school..." And then you can't resist going further: "There's no such thing as not having the means." Where do you live - in a social cocoon?

Australia’s poverty rate is nearly 13% - the second highest of all OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development) countries. Only the United States was higher (19%). Depending on how you define it, research using three different income poverty lines, estimated the number of children in poverty in 2000 as: 479,000 (half median income poverty line); 743,000 (half average income poverty line); and 1,037,000 (Henderson poverty line). Even the least exacting measure of poverty finds half a million Australian kids in poverty. What do you reckon are their chances of getting to private schools?

If you're really serious, but want to stay emotionally safe, you might want to read
(a) The Australian Parliamentary Library research paper called, "The Poor in Australia: Who Are They and How Many Are There?" 22 August 2002 (www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/SP/poverty.htm); or
(b) The Senate's "A hand up not a hand out: Renewing the fight against poverty: Report on poverty and financial hardship" 2004 (www.aph.gov.au/SEnate/committee/clac_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/poverty/report/index.htm)

Or alternatively you might like to spend time with agencies like The Brotherhood of St Laurence or the Smith Family to see the unending work they do with families scratching to pay daily bills and who would never in their wildest dreams imagine it possible to send their kids to private schools.

Better still, you might like to meet some poverty-stricken Australians who live on the streets because they haven't got bond money to rent a home. Now we won't even mention Indigenous Australians or those who can't work because of serious disabilities or sole parents.

I am saddened to learn that you find "the sense of entitlement many people in this country exhibit to be rather unattractive." I suppose you would find kids from poor families "rather unattractive" too.