To Mick V
To Michael2
"You flatter creationists by being so worried about them taking over the world. They are largely a collection of Bible students and science geeks, and get no government funding. If their ideas are catching on a bit, it is largely because of the paucity of real evidence unearthed supporting evolutionary belief in the last hundred years or so since Darwin and others made it popular."
What nonsense, typical of the "Christian" view of sf science. The funding is strong from USA bigots and authoritarian, christian idiots on the web and with their CDs and other propaganda.
A 3,000 year old book of potted history and fables takes presidence over all
SEE
http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF
ScientificAmerican.com
60-Second Science Podcast from Scientific American

June 18, 2002

15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense

Opponents of evolution want to make a place for creationism by tearing down real science, but their arguments don't hold up

By John Rennie

When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 143 years ago, the scientists of the day argued over it fiercely, but the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution's truth beyond reasonable doubt. Today that battle has been won everywhere--except in the public imagination.

Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy. They lobby for creationist ideas such as "intelligent design" to be taught as alternatives to evolution in science classrooms. As this article goes to press, the Ohio Board of Education is debating whether to mandate such a change. Some antievolutionists, such as Philip E. Johnson, a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley and author of Darwin on Trial, admit that they intend for intelligent-design theory to serve as a "wedge" for reopening science classrooms to discussions of God.
The arguments that creationists use are typically specious

runner: "You say that I have been caught out lying. I wonder what moral basis you have for even saying that lying is wrong. It is convenient to use that moral basis selectively. Of course if it wasn't for the bible we would not know that lying is wrong. Yes I did exagarate in making a point and if that makes me a liar I apologise. I maintain I never stated that State schools hand out condoms and needles but did imply which was wrong. I used a humanistic method (the end justifies the means) in making a point."

Doesn't runner's bible make a defintive statement about bearing false witness (i.e. thou shalt not do it)?

I reckon runner needs to engage in some pretty heavy self-flagellation to atone for his self-confessed sin. At least it would keep his hands away from... the keyboard ;)

And of course BS Boazy: "The Outsider" by Albert Camus is one such example. Has such a book had influence ?

... In short....yes. "

As a graduate of the NSW public school system, I'd never heard of Camus or 'The Outsider' until I reached my early 20s. My son is now in Year 12 in the Queensland state system, and he'd never heard of Camus until I just asked him.

Pray tell, Boazy you old "scallywag", in which schools is Camus' 'The Outsider' required reading? Are they the same ones in which runner's fictitious needles and condoms are distributed?

Or is it the case that the most vocal 'Christian' contributors to this forum are pathological liars? Remember, I've detailed your porkies in this forum before, and would be happy to do so again :)

Earlier, I was thinking about an article I read in one of the Melbourne newspapers last year. It was about the relationship between schools and housing prices, and the notion of people in private schools "buying" a better education and how this also happens in the state system.

Apparently, most state schools have a catchment area, which some enforce very strictly. In other words, you have to live within a certain zone to attend each school.

This article was basically saying that where there's a high-performing suburban state school, or one with a high reputation in a particular way, people will actually move into the catchment area specifically so their children can attend that school. The effect of this is that houses within the catchment area cost significantly more than those even just outside the catchment area. This would intuitively make sense in terms of supply and demand.

So, what in effect happens is that parents don't buy an education through school fees, but through being able to afford a higher mortgage. Regardless, even in the state system there is division based on class and money.

The plot thickens!

CJ Morgan

It is amazing how 'non believers' are quick to judge believers by biblical standards. Of course a non believer would never exagarate to make a point and even if they did who is to say its wrong? I will be the first to admit that I fall short of biblical standards. That is exactly why I need a Saviour. The fact that you use God's laws as a moral compass for others shows you have some idea of right and wrong. I wonder if you ever use that compass on yourself? Take that moral compass away and you have every man doing what is right in his own sight. That is exactly what is wrong with the humanistic philosophy that leaves children who are not taught right and wrong without morals. No one is yet able to explain why so many non religous people are choosing to send their kids to private schools

Shorbe,

You do not have to live in a school’s catchment area to go to it. You are free to go to any government school you like in Victoria if it has room, and have been for decades. The zoning gives you the right to attend your local school – even if it doesn’t have room.

Graham Y,

Victorian government schools are mostly funded on a voucher system of about $5,000 per student (the exact amount depending on the level of the student), so funding is determined by student numbers, not the other way around.

CJ Morgan,

There is no reason that Camus’ The Outsider would not be taught in a school. I have taught his The Plague to year 12. There are changes made to year 12 booklists every year, so it is no surprise that neither you nor your son has studied Camus.

The problem in the growth of private schools is that the government system will become politically voiceless and the children in it neglected, yet they are part of our society and need to be educated as much as anyone else.

I resigned from my government school at the end of last term, not because it was a hot-bed of lefty pink trendy Marxist relativists who do not teach facts or know what truth is, but because the government “system” is no longer a system and does not treat its teachers with respect. It consists of competing fiefdoms in which teachers are abused and exploited by principals who have too much power. Government schools do need higher standards of discipline and higher expectations of achievement. If they do not get them, parents will continue to buy the company of children they see as more suitable for their own in private schools.