Keith
you seem to be unaware or deliberately ignoring the work of Dennis Ross around the Camp David period.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50830,00.html

ROSS: The ideas were presented on December 23 by the president, and they basically said the following: On borders, there would be about a 5 percent annexation in the West Bank for the Israelis and a 2 percent swap. So there would be a net 97 percent of the territory that would go to the Palestinians.

On Jerusalem, the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem would become the capitol of the Palestinian state.

On the issue of refugees, there would be a right of return for the refugees to their own state, not to Israel, but there would also be a fund of $30 billion internationally that would be put together for either compensation or to cover repatriation, resettlement, rehabilitation costs.

COMMENT: I note with interest the term 'Arab Neighborhoods' being the Capital. Unless I'm wrong, they are using this term to exclude the Temple Mount from the inclusion in that Capital.

So, I can only repeat what I've been saying all along, i.e. that little piece of real estate is the key to the whole situation.
When you consider that based on the events surrounding the history of the Mount. Jewish to the fall of Jerusalem, Christian since Christ and Islamic since the illegal Muslim invasion, now.. in limbo but not without the passions of over a billion Muslims and a few Million Jews and many millions of Christians at work in deciding it's future.

Does it occur to you that Arafat may have rejected the offer of 97% BECAUSE of that small (big) detail ? Its just tooooo symbolic mate.

30 BILLION for compensation, resettlement, rehabilitation ? Sounds pretty good to me and is WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING as the most compassionate outcome. Glad I'm not alone in that.

You persistently ignore Logics mention of Jewish refugees from Arab lands.
Have you or a family member recently married a Palestinian ?

John, only wish there were more like you, mate. The Middle East needs it so much - wisdom and understanding - what we term in the bush just plain common sense.
Personally I find it better if I try to mix faith with reason, which seems to get rid of that obsession which can come with too much faith.
It is so interesting that reason was first introduced into Christian faith by Islamic scholars during the Middle Ages.
These scholars who had accepted Islam were from Middle East families whom earlier had accepted what some call Socratic Reasoning, but actually a mixture of ancient Greek learning brought into Egypt by the troops of Alexander the Great, the Great Library of Alexandria being the result of the so-called conquest. Of course, it was well before Islam came into being.
It is also so interesting that a great many of the scholars studying at the Library were from Jewish families. It has even been suggested that the young Jesus might have also spent time there while his family was in Egypt.
Indeed, many Schools of Humanities teach that it was the modification of reason with faith by both Muslims and Christians which went on to produce the Renaissance, then the Age of Reason which was followed by the Age of Enlightenment and onto our present democracies .
Unfortunately, it is believed that it was the strength or pressure of Western Germanic Christianity that caused Islam to retreat back into the so-called safety of total faith.
Finally, it is so ironic that it was the synthesis of faith and reason held by very early Middle East Muslims that helped spurt Western modern progress.

David

The question I asked was for a map of what Barak proposed to Arafat at Camp David.

I don't really see the need for any reference to your irrelevant fundy drivel.

And I see grn hasn't responed so I must assume he's really having a reconsideration of his view. And that's reasoned and reasonable.

Your attitudes which are typical of those held by many on both sides and is the cause of most of the problem. Your divisions, your prejudices, and your hate.

Bushbred

Your history is quite accurate with regard to learning and scholastic endeavour during the rise of Islam and the arab Empire. The point at which Islam changed was after the end of the Caliphates around 1100AD. They were based in present day Iraq and were the site of much of the power of the former Persian empire. Islam after their demise returned to Saudia Arabia and became almost totally fundamentalist in nature. It is no coincidence rthe Arab Empire went into decline at exactly the same time. Today we are seeing a movement within Islam away from that fundamentalism especially in those branches of Islam not based exclusively in the mid east.

Heartfelt Thanks, Keith. After extensive study in my retirement, eventually gained a degree after time in Sri-Lanka based on the beginning of the Tea Economy in which Tamils had to be imported from India to clear the hill slopes so suitable for such agriculture, to which the the Sri Lankan buddhists strongly objected.

Some very tough fighting, the East India Company finally taking over with their own standing army. Guess corporate empiricism is really nothing new, by the looks.

Went on to get a post-grad in electives based on both historical geography on WA and macro-economics to add to my degree.

Did interfere with my love of golf, Keith, and would you believe have only recently just finished 13 years of taking groups on Philosophical Topics with the Mandurah U3A.

But as my wife used to say, it has kept me away from the bar.

Sadly my wife died only a few months ago.

Like to keep in touch, Keith, reckon we might be both somewhat on that fascinating wavelength, The Search for Enquiry.

Keith..how in the world do you get 'irrelevant fundy drivel' from a post about Dennis Ross and Camp David ?

You didn't ask for a map, you asked for 'something in writing' about what was offered, and I proveded that. I have seen maps and here are some.

http://www.mideastweb.org/precdmap.htm
another
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/rossmap2.html
another
http://www.iris.org.il/camp_david.htm

Then there is this palestinian document
http://www.palestineinformation.org/barak.pdf

They mention their 'generous offer' and claim "We only want '22%' of 'historic' Palestine". but if you look at the map its looks more like 50% of the major area not including the desolate Sinai region.

Looking at all this, it is apparent that neither side wished to concede much.

According to the Palestinian document regarding secret talks at Taba (if secret, how come they know ?)
-Sovereignty of Islamic Shrines in Jerusalem to Palestinians.
-Israel waives control of Jordan Valley.
-Palestinians cede some settlement territory.
-They were open to Israeli control of the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall in the Old City of East Jerusalem. For the first time, detailed discussion on refugee return began.

errr..ok. Though it sounds more like a Palestinian wish list.

a)How far do you think 'refugee return' would get ?
b)How do you think the Orthodox and Settler Jews would react to Islamic control of Temple mount ?
c)Then...there is Hamas and its Islamic Waqf.

Keith, you seem very entrenched in "Israel bad/Palestinians good" mode.
So, have you or a family member recently married a Muslim ?