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The Forum > Article Comments > Which degree? Fashion design or science? > Comments

Which degree? Fashion design or science? : Comments

By Kurt Lambeck, published 22/2/2007

The perception of science as nerdy needs to be changed if we are to have scientists in the future.

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To most students, maths and science are difficult subjects, particularly when compared with many of the Mickey Mouse courses such as the humanities. As well as that, a goodly proportion of maths and science graduates are not good teachers, although they might know their subjects well. This means that by the time students reach university, they have a poor foundation for the subjects ahead,

Once graduated, the workplace is not always attractive either. The researcher is often on short term funding, so that as a profession, science is not particularly attractive, Those who opt to work in industry also find that rates of pay are less than other professions. I know, I have been out there. Intellectually, science can be a very rewarding vocation, but unfortunately there are more rewarding jobs.

I can see the day coming when our science students will be going to India or China to get the best qualifications and jobs. Those countries are placing much more emphasis on producing scientists.
Posted by VK3AUU, Thursday, 22 February 2007 10:43:46 AM
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Can I turn this around another way and maybe get some feedback as well?

Over the last decade and more I have worked with many science graduates who were restructured out of a job and scrap-heaped at an early age and had to find other, quite different employment. I cannot remember any of those people as being unmotivated or jaded and almost all had PhDs. Almost all had been involved in research, at least part-time and they lost their jobs not through any unsuitability but through the misfortune of being in an organisation or unit that was being outsourced ar had lost government funding.

Fair enough you might say if their skills were out of date and they had refused to re-skill or keep up to date. However on reflection so many of these employees had not been given any option of moving sideways to another area of science or similar occupation. Further, if they had been managed during their worklives by the same insensitive and incompetent clods who handled their final redundancies, I have the deepest sympathy for them.

It appears to me that there could be a lot of unnecessary wastage of science skills, that employers are only interested in buying new graduates and resist training or re-training employees wherever possible.

What is so wrong with (say) a 45 yr old with a PhD and probably 20 years of practical experience, networking, attending conferences, reading professional mags and so on?

However, from observing the very disjointed careers of the science gradustes around me I hope the author can understand why some of us would urge our offspring not to pursue the science 'careers' he is talking about. I don't think it is by accident that certain disciplines become unattractive and employers and government need to reconsider their parts in making it so.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 22 February 2007 1:22:10 PM
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My dentist was a medical research scientist for 8 years, until he decided he owed it to his family to do something more financially rewarding, which offered greater security.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 22 February 2007 3:29:06 PM
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I share your emotion Kurt, but reality has to be the electric chair.

I heard the best expression today to explain this phenomena or Post modern reality;

NASA is tracking on a meteor that may hit earth in 2035 or there about.
So the commentary is; well we will not bother about it until the date is closer;

The point is; there will not be anyone left intelligent enough to calculate or prepare to take evasive action if it ever "It" be needed;

The education system now is our own murderous criminal; in fact forget education as an expression; it is Indoctrination and corruption now days; ethics and epistemology are victims of the Proletariat Looting strategy and economics. Everything we gained in Knowledge has been pee’d into the wind but for a few.

Name the time and place and I will be there.Intellectual H I V Aids rules now; and so be it the consiquences.
Posted by All-, Thursday, 22 February 2007 3:55:29 PM
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Maybe the nerdy image is more a result of a bread and circuses culture, led by politicians heard to utter that Don Bradman was the greatest ever Australian ,motivated to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a sports stadium, or announcing another resurrection of the Bradfield Scheme. Where did a similar bunch of sport tragics and science Philistines get ancient Rome? Perhaps they can think of a way to solve the water or energy crisis by kicking a footy? Maybe they could train some athletes well enough to run to the Moon, or a javelin thrower to strike a blow against cancer.

In China it is a different story, with Stephen Hawking recently lauded like a pop star would be here.

Cornflower's observations are similar to my own. I frequently see undergraduates in my profession who are highly qualified in the sciences, yet choose to train in a field that I consider of far less importance for the advancement of civilisation.

The low value given to science by Australia's politicians completely explains the skills shortage, and will not advance this country a jot.
Posted by Fester, Thursday, 22 February 2007 5:46:42 PM
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Hey Cornflower, you have a point that many well trained scientists lose their jobs regularly due to lack of funding. I know in my sector (biomedical sciences) NHMRC grants often last for three years or so and if you don't get another grant after that you have to get another job. That said, I believe that there are organisations like the Co-Operative Research Centre for Asthma which I think fund some projects for seven years.

In my mind offering longer research grants will give actual scientists more financial stability. On the other hand giving shorter grants may give taxpayers more value for money and allows for more projects to be funded.
Posted by Sparky, Thursday, 22 February 2007 11:43:29 PM
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Hell maybe giving industry a 250-500% return on scientific research would help as well. This government has turned it's back on Australian manufacturing and science as well. We got a free trade agreement with the US what more do we need.
Posted by Kenny, Friday, 23 February 2007 8:27:13 AM
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While there may be problems in science teaching and education, what is the point of improvement when good jobs in science are so few? The most motivated people go on to do PhDs - and then what? If they are lucky get postdocs for a few years, but eventually the funding runs out, the lab is closed down, or they just get sick of the politicisation of research and the fact they spend more time on grant applications than doing science. A look through the papers shows that most science jobs seem to be sales repping for medical/pharmaceutical companies. Is that why they spend years on their education and getting research experience? I think not.
Posted by Nixie, Friday, 23 February 2007 12:40:54 PM
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Few contributors have actually talked about schoolyard culture - why do kids pick up from their peers that science is nerdy? It starts at Year 1 and goes right through to Year 12.

My Chinese friends can't believe the attitude.

But look at this country - the economy is basically a giant quarry with a few nice coastal properties and McMansions to speculate with.

Who do people worship in this country? Spivs and sportsmen.

People boast that they don't read books. Kids don't just learn from teachers, they learn from wider society, that knowledge, especially esoteric science, is not valued.

And then we've got the Intelligent Designers...
Posted by Richy, Friday, 23 February 2007 4:26:31 PM
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You would hope people or kids would stand for high achievement because that is what motivates them, not because it does not pay enough;
Get rid of this notion of Money is superior; Money is worthless if ethical and professionalism is disgorged- then the consequences of that compound out of control.
The aim is to be the best you can be, not the worst on offer like now days. And get played bucket loads for being an idiot.
That is the philosophical Dialectical Metaphysics of Altruism, ultimate corruption.

Professional is when it is your heart and soul by your own motivation of free will to achieve the ultimate goal of success and make a difference with integrity – so that counts out Law graduates- that heading comes under the above philosophical interpretation.
Bring it on.

There are plenty of people capable of Scientific and Mathematics in advanced stages , but consign it to the too hard basket and can not be bothered ; and would rather study Barbie and ken dolls because it is easy; That attitude must be stomped out.

And start kicking Bureaucrats and Politicians in the groin and get their ineptitude and corruption out of the way.
Posted by All-, Saturday, 24 February 2007 3:12:58 PM
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Why is there this constant talk of the need to 'train more x'? Let the money draw people towards science if it's really needed that much. It's nothing new, it's called a price signal.
Posted by volition, Sunday, 25 February 2007 11:48:34 AM
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I trained as a scientist, Ph.D. and all. Perhaps I should have done fashion design instead where I could earn some real money.

You won't get the best and brightest brains doing science if they are not rewarded. It is not just the politicians. We are developing an anti-science culture full of followers of homeopathy.
Posted by Agronomist, Saturday, 3 March 2007 9:17:32 PM
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IT and engineering can be outsourced, science can be outsourced. Few people have really examined it - but farming can also be outsourced (along with economics and politics).

That'd leave us free to focus on mining on tourism. The best strategy with mining would be to sell everything off - before the Indians or Chinese arrive with more advanced weapons.

And when that occurs - I note that Australians are becoming masters of nail care. I noticed an "international academy of nail care" while working in Brisbane. Sure makes me proud.
Posted by WhiteWombat, Saturday, 10 March 2007 6:49:32 PM
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