This is the sort of article we've come to expect from social workers, university lectures and journalists. Unfortunately, these people often don't have a lot of experience living in remote communities and don't really understand the complexities on the ground. I may be wrong in Harry's case, but people who have spent any significant amount of time in communities tend to lose their idealism and start looking at reality, or return to the city.

I've been teaching in remote communities for over 4 years now and some observations might help:

* All teachers who come out here always do healthy eating units of work. Children and the community in gneeral know what healthy and unhealthy food is. You just need to ask them and you'll get the right answer. But I have children bringing 1.25L bottles of coke into class for breakfast and have seen children buying 4 packets of bubble gum at the shop for dinner. Aboriginals know what healthy food is, it is cheaper than junk food in most communities (subsidised) yet choose not to eat it. What more can government do? Should they take a paternal attitude and tell Aboriginals what to eat? The simple fact is, if I (a white person) ate the same diet as Aboriginals I would die 20 years earlier too.

* There is also this myth about Aboriginal health care. Almost all communities have a clinic. The clinics are all free; the last bastion of bulk billing. If you speak to any remote area nurse you'll find that Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country. There are numerous stories of nurses being woken up in the middle of the night because someone wanted a panadol. Government goes to enormous lengths to provide quality health care in some of the most remote places on Earth. Can they always overcome the large distances involved? No, but they certainly do all they can.

cont..

So why do Aboriginals still die younger? Most Aboriginal health issues are related to lifestyle choices - diabetes and kidney disease are two that come to mind. Premature death due to alcohol related issues is also a huge one; whether that be drink driving without a seatbelt, alcohol induced violence or just the long term affects of alcohol abuse.

If we're going to improve the lot of Aboriginals we need to get past the stage of running to some international organisation for statistics and then blaming white people. We need to treat Aboriginals like adults and expect them to take responsibility for their own actions. Importantly, we have to recognise that even though the communities may be small, their problems are very complex and difficult to solve; and we need to recognise that governments of both persuasions have acted in good faith to try and solve these problems.

eet
You do have to ask yourself then, why do aborigines choose one life style over another, especially if they have been educated about the health impact. This is a problem relating to mental states and emotional abuse, rather than one of pure education and material provisions. Or perhaps we are educating the wrong people. I have heard some horrific stories of abuse by white people of aborigines in the country areas...present day stories, not stories about the past. If we treat people as though they do not matter, we hold them in low regard and we mock them at every opportunity, this will have an effect on their desire to live!

...

Well..

You are absolutaly right, that the situation is terrible and that it is a disgrace to all Australians.

Although we all know it (though possibly not to that extent as the author) it needs to be reminded; otherwise we will be to comfortable in not looking at difficult issues.

But what we, perhaps need even more, are *action research projects* that will show what and how can be done.

What realy counts, is what we can do.

So far, we are good at desribing problems, not so good at solving them.

Buth there is hope: new weave of 'action rearch projects' developed within the universities' 'community engagement' strategies can help to find solutions.

I would be more than happy to share what I have learned about some succesful overseas projects
(see www.communitybuilders.nsw.gov.au/download/Siera.doc
and
present and idea of a project that could contribute to solving of the aboriginal problem.

See: www.creativewinwin.com

How are other cultural populations supposed to tell the Aboriginal culture to stop how they are destroying their own?

Now with even more stringent human rights laws, no professional is willing to risk their reputation in putting forth, drastic solutions, fear they may be labelled racist.

Up to now the Aboriginal populations have been pretty much allowed to do what they wanted to do, according to tribal ways and those wishing to be in the cities.

Not even tribal law and Aboriginal Elders are able to lead the way to a better existence for their people.

It isn't a matter of Australian citizens putting pressure on their government to take away the booze and police their communities to solve domestic violence and wayward children.

You have to actually want to change yourself. There is more than a wealth of assistance and priority leg ups for the Aboriginal people.

There is more than a wealth of assistance and leg ups for all Australian, except not as much as Aboriginals.

If I had someone spoon feeding me and pandering to my nomadic wandering, I soon would have seen the right way to go.

Left wing and centre professional, academics and the gravy train riders have only kept the Aboriginal culture, stuck in a timezone they should have long surpassed, only to maintain their own perverse status.

Whether the Aboriginal community want to except it, they need to grab what extra opportunities they have over the rest of us and become competitive cultural leaders and beacons for their cultural survival because some other culture besides your own Australians may not be so generous to whom was a first settler or not.

PS
on the website go to the page (index on the left-hand panel)
How to Cut through the Gordian Knot {of Aboriginal Problems}

Paul

When are we going to admit that the policies of the last 30 years, the passive welfare, the attempt to preserve "tribal" culture, the obsession with land rights and treaties to the benefit of a few, have not only failed, but made things WORSE. Despite Noel Pearson's eloquence on this subject, the Labor party still does not accept this, the Left still does not accept this. There has never been a mea culpa.

I firmly believe that if Aborigines had been left to their own devices in the 1960s they would be better off than they are now. Still disadvantaged overall, but better off. They're a resourceful people, to be sure. It's white man's misguided compassion that has destroyed them.

I would like to know what to do with the 'white problem'.

Look at the issues associated with the 'white problem' - they have no respect for country, land is denuded, river systems like the Murray-Darling are dying and they have no concept of respect.

The 'white problen' manifests itself in the lack of respect for community, the inherent worth of a person, greed, brutality and control.

Good programs such as healthy eating are not being listened to even by their own mob as the recent reports on obesity show.

Alcohol management plans that teach people not to abuse alcohol are great, but the 'white problem' sees it only being implemented selectively.

Alcohol management should be Australia wide, with restricted trading hours, limited takeaways and so forth.

Greed is another negative force aflicting the 'white problem'. Big money is made in the supply of goods and services at often overinflated prices.

The 'white problem' is also aflicted by vanity, for there is the illusion that everyone must be just like them. Perhaps it is something to do with paranoia.

Children have even been stolen in order to make them 'white'.

Peoples inherent humanity is not respected as the 'white problem' ensures that the employment and financial benifit remains in their domain to the exclusion of others.

If only we could solve the white problem and teach them how to share and how to respect their country and fellow humans.

Good one aka. But after reading eet's contributions I think you missed a couple of aspects of the 'white problem'.

1. When confronted with opinions they don't like, they denigrate the writers as idealistic "social workers, university lectures and journalists" and paint themselves as "realists"..

2. Some of them go to remote areas to do "good works" like teaching the right way to live and can't understand it when the "natives" don't fall over in rapturous gratitude.

3. They challenge the "myth" about Aboriginal health care by telling big porkies about the abundant health services in remote areas and how the ingrates get you out of bed at night for a panadol. And how 'Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country'. No lie is too big.

4. And they develop their own myths about "lifestyle choices" and how the blighters choose to bring it all on themselves through alcohol.

5. And they engage in breathtaking hypocrisy like 'We need to treat Aboriginals like adults and expect them to take responsibility for their own actions' while doing everything possible to keep them in their place.

6. At the end of the day, they resort to meaningless rhetoric and hand-wringing like: 'even though the communities may be small, their problems are very complex and difficult to solve'; and (without a skerrick of irony) 'we need to recognise that governments of both persuasions have acted in good faith to try and solve these problems'.

I'm sure you'll be able to add to your list as this thread develops, aka.

I have done plenty of consultancy work in rural and remote communities, and what I find disturbing is the costs added onto food for freight and GST. In a remote community I purchased a 2 litre bottle of orange juice, the price $6.00, good old 2 litre of Coca Cola $2.50.

It's cheaper to buy $5.00 worth of chips, rather than a basic meal as most items start at $3.00, so do the maths, a meal may costs $40.00 per night, the chips work out cheaper for people who are mainly dependant on welfare.

We can talk healthy eating all we want, but until some real changes are made by making healthy food more affordable, Aboriginal people in remote and rural communities will continue to suffer.

What is this? State the bleeding obvious week? Anything to try and get posts. Pathetic. Give some real info, some real reports, not statistical lies. How long can a Calcutta man live while pulling fat tourists around in a rickshaw in 40+ degree heat in 90% humidity on bitumen roads. Barefoot.

The answer is simple, not bloody long. So what? The Indians don't care, they sit and ride like everyone else, staring over the head of the ubnfortunate waiting for manna from heaven.

Why must we Australians constantly have ourselves on about this issue?
Why must we hear from within this community and out side it views that its all the fault of whites who invaded this country?
Why must we overlook most Aboriginals could not tell you the year of that invasion or who took part in it?
200 plus years is enough time to fix it!
It takes effort from both sides to fix it!
White Australia me and mine have to fix it.
But it will not be painless it will not be easy but we must fix it.
I at least know the people know the natural fear of mixing with us.
Know the do it tomorrow attitudes.
Why is it we talk Aboriginal culture but will not admit over drinking and child neglect is a part of that culture?
I give my time freely to help ,am white but uncle to hundreds of kids but sometimes unwanted in these community's.
I picked up a kid of 17 had seen him bashed in a domestic dispute kicked and bashed I took him home.
into the centre of a free lunch in a tent .
His family ran to his aid and the whole tent came to us no one gave it a thought that I had bought him home .
Yes racism in its worst way was my reward.
Sorry but some in this community must be made to care.

Can we fiz the 'white problem'.

After invasion they used alcohol, disease, violence and death to control, enslave and or eradicate (disperse) us.

Years of abuse, violence, sexual abuse and slavery at the hands of the colonisers and now the 'white problen' wonders why we don't really trust them.

The problem with 'whites' is that they don't see or admit to the child abuse, alcoholism, drug addiction, mass murderers in thier mob- but are quick to bung it all onto us.

The 'white problem' is that they cannot see the link between the learned behaviour of some of our people from them.

You know what I mean. Brutality, violence, alcohol (remember the rum corp that the colonisers set up early in the piece), sexual slavery and abuse of women and children, masacares, land theft - ...

Aka

The government is once again suggesting half way house for abused children in their communities.

Will this be classified another stolen generation or is it alright to do that now?

Aka

I hear they can make a pretty good brew out of bush tucker without accessing modern methods of manufacture.

Suebdootwo,
I think that your comments are hostile and any suggestion that are laden with hostility towards aborigines are the cause of the problem not the solution. People with your approach are responsible for the abuse and should stay out of discussion, for eveyone's sake!

Aka demonstrates the other great cancer eating up Aboriginal society - "It's all the white man's fault.". This lie is aided and abetted by guilt junkies on the soft left side of politics, whose real goal is perpetual self-flagellation, not helping Aborigines.

Quayle,

I’m not sure which part of remote Australia you’ve passed through, but I lived in Arnhem land for three years and remain in the Top End. Most community stores in Arnhem Land are run by ALPA (Arnhem Land Progress Association). They provide subsidised fruit and vegetables and often healthy sandwiches too. I’m now in a different region, but things work similarly: 10% mark up for fruit, vegs and basics, 20% for other foodstuffs and 30% for non-foodstuffs. Although, I suppose some fool will accuse me of making it up…

‘white problem’

In Arnhem Land I was adopted and given a tribal and skin name. The children in my class knew how I was related to them in the kinship system. It was a bit funny when I had 10 year old girls who I could call grandmother. I also had the privilege of attending lots of ceremonies. My first dhäpi ceremony will stay with me forever. We sat and watched the singing and dancing for hours. Late in the night the men started the fire dance. They tied bushes to their legs and set them on fire. It was a test to see who could keep dancing the longest. They did this for hours.
I’ve also been sung into huts to pay last respects to the dead. Seeing the body and feeling the thump as the women throw themselves to the ground while wailing is another profound experience. The funerals can go for up to a week, sometimes longer.
In Arnhem Land the culture is living; they don’t dance for tourists. At dawn on the day of the dhäpi ceremony we (the men) watched the boys being circumcised. At the end of the funeral we watched the body go into the ground.

I like the Aboriginals out here and have many good friends. They have their land; their language and their culture. They have no reason to have a chip on their shoulder. I know a teacher who showed her secondary girls Rabbit Proof Fence. She asked them why the girl was having so many problems

cont...

They replied, she lost her colour; she got no culture. These people aren’t stupid. And there’s no politically correct movement here either; a calf-cast is called a half-cast, not by whites but by blacks.

Sometimes being here is fantastic, and sometimes it’s just hard. I teach a nine year old girl whose parents live in the long grass in Darwin. She stays with one family for a while before being moved on to the next. However, not having a strong guardian has left her vulnerable; she’s been raped (police were involved) and now has social and behavioural problems. I’ve also attended the funeral of an 11 y/o boy who hanged himself. His mother asked if my class could do something for the funeral, so I drew up some hearts and photocopied them onto red card. We had a lesson about what messages we could write him (I have a Year 4 to 7 class) and later put them on his coffin at the funeral. Not the lessons we learn about at uni.

As for the atheistic comments about missionaries. Well, Aboriginals are spiritual people. They had no problem with the missionaries. I’ve had an assistant teacher who said to me “they were hard, but at least we learnt”. The missions were successful because they provided a safe refuge from the often hard and dangerous life in the bush. They certainly weren’t perfect but when they went they often left viable cattle and transport businesses. These are all gone now.

But in the eyes of FrankGol and Aka I must be lying; just making it all up. Well I’m sorry if the International Socialist and Green Left Weekly hasn’t kept you well informed, and if my experience doesn’t fit your world view. Mindless ideologues like you usually have never left the city and never met an Aboriginal. You know it all from your Aboriginal Studies courses and an ‘aboriginal experience’ you might have once had. You are nothing but fakes. Windbags full of false rage and misplaced anger.

Eet

It good to see someone with genuine concern and willing to relay the truth. I am in contact with many aborigines and people who work with them on a regular basis. What you portay is accurate. Kids are often seen with rotten teeth at 6 or 7 years old despite excellent medical facilities being available. I doubt whether many of your detractors on this post have any first hand experience with indigneous communties. If they have they are in denial because their white blaming doctrine is destroyed. If things are ever going to change these kids needs rescuing from abusive situations where parents (when available) are unable or unwilling to see do anything to help. We have had children show up at church who have not had a nutricous food for days.

A miracle - people like eet can 'know' all about my experience with Indigenous people without knowing a single thing about me. I'm a 'mindless ideologue', who has 'never left the city and never met an Aboriginal'. eet himself has an exclusive grip on the truth, and those who argue with him are 'fakes and windbags full of false rage and misplaced anger'.

Now Aka can speak for himself, but I have some credentials. I grew up in an orphanage with 20 Indigenous children and maintain contact with some of them, and their children, today. I saw how white 'carers' mistreated them, lying to their parents to keep them from paying visits.

I have taught Indigenous students in the NT and Victoria. In my first placement I was disgusted to find teachers wouldn't teach until the children showered and got into white fellers' clothes. Then they were expected to learn to read through books about Dick and Dora and idealised white families. When they mucked up, the fault was always with the kids and never in the teaching or curriculum.

My grandfather was on the Western Front with an Aboriginal soldier who, when he got home, was told he was not eligible for the soldier settlement schemes - the land for which he'd fought was only available to white Australians. In NSW he was not allowed to travel on trains with white people without a special permit.

In the past 20 years I have worked closely with brilliant Indigenous educators who are achieving outstanding results; and I have a personal relationship with a lovely Yorta Yorta woman. My experience has enabled me to acquire insights that at the very least match eet's four years teaching.

But we 'mindless ideologues' can't win against omniscients like eet and Runner. eet asserts we have no first-hand experience; Runner says that even if we have, we are 'in denial'.

Who are the ideologues? It's 2007 and Runner is still trumpeting the tragic philosophy of paternalism and taking kids away from their families. Has he learnt nothing from history?

FrankGol
I'm with you. Good on ya!

It's such a shame this has turned into the familiar cultural left/right brawl we see every time these issues are raised. Why is it that such intelligent, eloquent and experienced people insist on marking differences rather than what they have in common? Why do we always have to establish blame before anything else?

There are so many issues of concern here - land, children, violence, health, alcohol - it's endless. But instead of beginning with the common humanity and land that we all share we begin with the same old ideological approaches that have failed us in the past.

There's no denying that black and white Australia are culturally different, and white Australia is currently and historically responsible for some awful stuff, but those are side issues of the main game which, in my view, should be care and respect for all of us and how we live on our particular patch of dirt.

Reading through the posts and from my perspective there appears to be a problem with how whitefellas agree to discuss 'Aboriginal people and issues'in the first intance.

Is the difficulty being expressed here one about how to define the 'Aboriginal problem?

This intersubjective discourse is interesting to me somewhere in all this chat are insights that have nothing to do with Aboriginal people at all, but rather, how white Australian's construct themselves as "public opinion makers" on the issues surrounding Aboriginal people and issues.

I feel like the elephant in the room everytime this happens.

If this conflict of opinion and personal attacks is what the Minister, and staff, encounter then I feel sorry for them. He would have the toughest job in the world or at least as bad as trying to bring peace to the Middle East. Its almost enough to make a sane person throw his arms up in despair and walk away and leave them to fight it out as best they can.

In effort to get something possitive going, has anyone lived and /or worked in any of the few aboriginal communities that worked better than most. I understand there are a few that have less problems than many of the others.

If so can you outline what you think they do differently or don't do that makes them better than others.

Also, what about the aboriginals that live in urban areas? Are their problems the same and is a different approach needed. What about a home ownership scheme similar to that of state housing authorities have, or had, for the purchasse of state built houses.
Many people were able to get some equity and security by this means.

I am aware that similar problems of alcahol abuse, domectic violence and child neglect/abuse happen in the white community, but apparently not to the same extent. Surely the problems are not insurmountable.

Rainier, that's precisely what I was trying to say.

Why do we talk about "the Aboriginal problem" or "Aboriginal problems" at all?

The minute we start doing that we exclude anyone else in our society facing exactly the same problems and focus on issues to do with Aboriginality.

It makes the assumption that Aboriginal parents are the only ones feeding their kids on fizzy drinks and chips which is clearly garbage. Or try these other issues:

-not sending kids to school
-kids failing at school
-alcoholism and other substance abuse
-domestic violence
-welfare dependency
-child sexual abuse
-child neglect

These are not just Aboriginal problems, they are everyone's problems.

Certainly there are some problems that are specifically indigenous issues like stolen generations and land rights and there's no doubt that those contribute to the other problems, but to focus on Aboriginal health problems as though they're somehow exclusively Aboriginal is self defeating, however well intentioned it may be.

Rainier is absolutely right to point out that these are debates white fellas have among themselves. As Aka says, they're about whiteness more than anything else.

FrankGol,

My 'assumptions' about your remote experience had nothing to do with 'miracles'. In remote communities health problems are very much associated with hygiene. Scabies are common and extended exposure can lead to kidney problems. Ear, nose and throat infections are also a major problem. Practically all bush teachers have seen otitis media. It causes pus to run out of the ear, is usually painful, and I believe can lead to permanent hearing reduction. Yet you make an extraordinary remark about teachers expecting children to be clean. It was “disgusting”. You claim to have 20 years experience in indigenous communities yet seem unaware of the basic link between hygiene and health outcomes. With 20 years experience I can only ‘assume’ one of two things, either a) you are very slow on the uptake or b) you haven’t had the remote experience you would have us believe.


chainsmoker,

I'm not sure what your point is about domestic violence, child abuse etc in white communities: it's not us who are dying 20 years earlier; it's Aboriginals, hence the discussion about ABORIGINAL health.

Rainier,

I have absolutely no idea what "intersubjective discourse" means.

Eet, I wasn't talking about those things in white communities. I meant these things are problems for our whole society. Aboriginal health only becomes a specific problem when you use the word "Aboriginal" before the word "health".

It's a very different problem when you say that despite everything we know about health and medicine, some Australians still have massive health problems.

What's the life expectancy of a white, chronic alcoholic with a long term rotten diet? About the same as the Aborigine in the same position I'd imagine.

It's really hard work trying to engage with Eet. He first claims that while he has practical experience I have none. When I tell him I have more experience than him, he then says I am either a slow learner or a liar. How can I argue with that?

But I don't really need to contradict eet. He can speak for himself.

On Wednesday Eet was saying: 'We need to treat Aboriginals like adults and expect them to take responsibility for their own actions' while in the same post he berates them for making the wrong lifestyle choices. 'Most Aboriginal health issues are related to lifestyle choices - diabetes and kidney disease are two that come to mind. Premature death due to alcohol related issues is also a huge one...'

At the same time, on Wednesday Eet was claiming that: 'Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country...Government goes to enormous lengths to provide quality health care in some of the most remote places on Earth.'

On Thursday, lest we get the wrong idea, Eet assures us: 'These [Aboriginal] people aren’t stupid.'

By Saturday he's back on track: 'In remote communities health problems are very much associated with hygiene. Scabies are common and extended exposure can lead to kidney problems. Ear, nose and throat infections are also a major problem.' This in the midst of the most medically 'over serviced segment of the population in the country'. What inferences are we expected to draw?

So if Aboriginal people are the most medically over-serviced people in Australia; if they are taught the difference between healthy and unhealthy food; if they are not stupid but they make the wrong choices about lifestyle and hygeine; and if Government 'certainly do all they can'; what's the solution, Eet?

FrankGol,

I don't see the contradiction. If you check my posts you'll find my argument has been consistent:

a) Aboriginals know what healthy food is but decide not to eat it
b) there are free medical facilities available to Aboriginals
c) Aboriginals need to take responsibility for themselves

Hence, don't just blame white people for indigenous health issues.

It's also no contradiction to say Aboriginals are not stupid but make poor decisions. We all do.

The same applies for your quip about my solution. I said all along these problems are complex and difficult to solve. You're the one who called this 'meaningless rhetoric', not me.

Eet

At least this time you have refrained from personal attack to focus on the argument. Thank you.

You say your argument has been consistent. You summarise it as having three parts.

'a) Aboriginals know what healthy food is but decide not to eat it.' Do you have a theory on why they decide that? Or any explanation other than the circular 'lifestyle choice'? And other than 'Aboriginals are not stupid but make poor decisions. We all do'? 'We' make mistakes but 'we' live much longer.

'b) there are free medical facilities available to Aboriginals.' You went further than that - you made the big call: 'Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country.' Do you stand by that claim, and if so, could you provide the hard evidence?

Then you catalogue the rampant diseases and medical conditions that they suffer from and which we all deeply regret. So with what you characterise as abundant medical services, Indigenous people die at a much earlier age than non-Indigenous people. What's your explanation? We can probably discount as cheap hyperbole your 'numerous stories about panadol in the middle of the night'. Have you got a proper explanation of this discrepant death rate?

'c) Aboriginals need to take responsibility for themselves'. But you clearly think they don't do so now. Can you explain why they don't?

Rainier,
I do not know of any "aboriginal problem". I know that the aborigines have a serious "white problem".

Vivy

Wouldn't you say since we are a multicultural nation of diversity, that the Aborigines have a multicultural problem?

vivy, "Aboriginal problem" meaning the predominantly 'white discourse' that arises everytime i read the newspapers where very few Aboriginal people actually get to engage/ critique their perspectives.(albiet Noel Pearson) . get it?

Suebdootwo, if white people are so stridently monoculture (which the often claim here) then the problem is with them. But then they'll joyously celebrate their so called multicultural 'society' - Sorry you can't have it both ways.

What is it with this cultural Schitsophenia?

And do you want to see how multicultural Indigenous Australians are?

Take a look here: http://www.didgeridoos.net.au/Buttons/abo-australia-map-large.gif

Rainier

I am not sure really what you are saying.

The last time I looked it wasn't only the Anglosaxon population numbering the boxes on the ballot papers.

Our own Treasurer says quiet bluntly to the Australian citizens, to "POPULATE OR PERISH".

Should the Australian citizen have someone to blame here?

Maybe, a well-known Australia-wide practising notion of demonstrating the national scientific superiority with the plain-English written long assignments based on a “research of literature” instead really developing technologies grounded on locally nurtured applied sciences, sometimes is a reasonable professors’ contribution to local academia as not-at-all university-based writers knew that the very similar fate of a life expectancy had been shared by native minorities in even ex-Soviet Siberia and North America, of which governments cared / care much for tackling a naturally-explainable still regrettable pattern.

in a nutshell mike, well put

Not bad English at all-is it sometimes?

And, please, accuse ME in racism and pro-colonial London-attractive stance.

Poor eet,
how do you reconcile your acceptance into an Aboriginal community with your betrayal of what they have been trying to teach you.

How can you take the honour of acceptance, and then betray that with your paternalism, your white superiourity.

I talk of the 'white problem' to demonstrate the fact that there is a historical underpinning of the difficulties that Indigenous Australians face.

If you want to feel guilt then that is up to you, however the 'white problem' is that they seem to think that simply by saying 'ok get over it and lets move on' does not address the intergenerational trauma that continues to affect some Indigenous peoples.

The patronising statement that Aboriginal people should be treated as adults just demonstrates your own limited understanding of adulthood.

Your posts demonstrate that you still have some way before you mature.

You see Indigenous Australians welcome friends and colleagues who will walk beside us, as equals. We do not need the great white bwanas walking in fromt of us bearing the light and leading the poor heathens, nor do we need the people who walk behind us kicking our a**.

**
For the record, I am a grandmother, and I know the history and see and live with the impact of the 'white problem'.

Aka,

As I said in an earlier post, Aboriginals who have their colour, their land, their language and their culture don't have a chip on their shoulder. They haven't had these things taken from them so why would they.

The fact you have an enormous chip leads me to believe you have lost touch with traditional life. You are one of the fakes.

And another thing, almost every Aboriginal I've heard accuse white people of 'rape', 'sexual abuse' or enslavement has been a half caste. Well, I'm not a half caste; my ancestors weren't rapists. What about yours?

If you feel this is all rather strong and unpleasant, I'd advise you take a look at some of the things you've tarred ALL white people with. Here are some examples:

"no concept of respect"
"Greed is another negative force aflicting the 'white problem'.."
"..'aflicted by vanity.....something to do with paranoia."
"teach them how to share and how to respect..country and fellow humans"
"...used alcohol, disease, violence and death to control, enslave and or eradicate (disperse) us"
"'whites' is that they don't see or admit to the child abuse, alcoholism, drug addiction, mass murderers in thier mob"
"Brutality, violence, alcohol (remember the rum corp that the colonisers set up early in the piece), sexual slavery and abuse of women and children, masacares, land theft - ... "

You are a nasty and intolerant person. You're not in a position to tell anyone anything.

eet,

You claim you teach Aboriginals and have done so for four years. How fit are you for the task? I hope you don't turn your nasty personality on them, poor buggers.

Your vicious bully-boy tactics are directed at Aka, but what perfect irony in such a telling self-portrait: 'You are a nasty and intolerant person. You're not in a position to tell anyone anything.' A case of the pot calling the kettle black - or a half-caste?

I notice you won't take on my questions. Tough talk, but no stomach for the tough questions?

eet, you're such a light weight its not worth commenting.

Gee its hard teaching kindergarten,

eet,

you said in your first post 'we need to recognise that governments of both persuasions have acted in good faith to try and solve these problems'.

Quite frankly I disagree that governments acted in good faith and by their own records it is fact that they did not act in good faith.

There are countless records of the things I spoke of, written by white colonisers.

You seem happy to discuss Aboriginal people as a homogenous group but are uncomfortable for 'whites' to be discussed in generalised and homogenous terms. I wonder why that is.

Now onto the issue of respect. You give a perfect example of what I was talking about.

An education degree, and four years experience teaching does not make you an intellectual. You have no idea of the issues you are discussing.

You seem to confuse nastiness and insults for intellectual discussion. You do not do your ancestors, particularly your parent, proud.

Your venomous attack on me simply reflects your juvenile and distorted thinking.

Come back and talk with the adults when you have completed kindy.

eet,

You seem to have fallen for the "noble savage" stereotype that the only real Aborigines are full bloods running around the outback eating bush tucker and painting in caves.

The real world isn't like that and neither are the kids you teach.

If Aka does have a chip on her shoulder generally, (as opposed to just in this thread) then attitudes like yours have helped put it there. Do you not understand that?

I agree with chain smoker with the fact that we need to stop pointing out differences but find similarities. As the 3rd richest country we have a responsibility to try and help the underprivileged countries and races such as the aborigines. To have a wealthy country with a race that has a life expectancy that is similar to that of some of the poorest countries in the world is a serious issue which needs to finally be address as a matter of seriousness by the government.

I knew I'd upset a few people with my last post. And very happy I am about it too.

If you look at Aka's posts you'll find she made absolutely no attempt to engage anybody about anything. She came into the discussion full of sound and fury, accusing white people of every crime under the sun. It's a well worn tactic of urban political Aboriginals: attack people with such aggression that they're too frightened to say anything in return. It's nothing but thuggery and intimidation. And at the end of the day I said nothing untrue. My ancestors, like most white Australians, migrated to Australia last century.

Aka, at least you got the respect part true. I have no respect for aggressive thugs. If you want people to respect you then you could start by giving it.

FrankGol you made the same mistake as Aka with your first post. To your credit you calmed down and attempted to engage. I hadn't replied because I felt we weren't really getting anywhere. What do you do with remote communities? There is around 90% unemployment in most and they will probably never be economically viable. But then on the other hand it's a bit hard to say to people, well you've been out here for 40000 years so now its time to move to the city and get a job. I've said lots of times there are no easy solutions. Do you believe me now?

You also doubt how fit I am to teach Aboriginal students. This is why I didn’t answer your previous posts. After all my posts you still haven’t managed to work out that remote Aboriginals are completely unlike their city cousins. I have a very good relationship with the children I teach.

cont...

Ranier, you have the classic politically correct view that somehow white people aren't qualified to talk about Aboriginal issues. We may be unqualified to talk about them but we ARE qualified to bear responsibility for Aboriginal suffering and to pay the bills. It seems in your view we should simply shut up, feel guilty and pay up. This is brilliant!! I'm sure it will solve everything. I feel humbled and a true “light weight”. In future I'll try to use terms such as 'intersubjective discourse' to prove how intelligent I am.

The simple fact is, if Aboriginals could solve their own problems I'm sure they would.

Chainsmoker, I’m glad you blamed the white fella for putting the chip on Aka’s shoulder. God help her if she were actually responsible for herself.

I won’t reply to any more posts on this thread because I don’t think it’ll do any good. The ‘political class’ will continue to blame white people and black people will continue to die 20 years earlier. In future I’ll just stick to what all bush people do when Aboriginal health or education is discussed – shut up and let experts like Aka and FrankGol do the talking. FrankGol and Aka you may have the last word…

eet,
Well said. Your assesment of those opposing your comments are spot on. Funny isn't it, how they critize you personally but in almost 50 posts not one of them put forward any suggestion that may be of use to help aboriginals live 20 years longer.

Yep, they reckon if your not at least part aboriginal you should shut up, feel guilty and pay up. But the fact is these loud mouths don't have any improvement suggestions. Notice how the aboriginal board of ATSIC spent billions and made no improvemen to aboriginal health or well being.

Rainier is quick to critize any suggestion made but never, ever makes any himself.

Meanwhile the alcohol abuse, domestic violence, child abuse and neglect and petrol sniffing will continue to get worse.

Well that is a damn pity, but you cannot help those that will not help themselves.

Good luck with your teaching and I hope you get a chance to tell your experiences and suggestions to those that make decissions.

Banjo, walk a mile in my shoes.

eet and banjo,

you object to white people being discussed in a similar fashion to the ways in which Aboriginal people are discussed - I wonder why that is.

The tongue in cheek tactic certainly worked a treat.

eet I do question your suitability as a teacher for you have no understanding of the history of violence and dispossession that is fact in Australia. I wonder what your 'friends' who trust you would make of your posts here.

Past events have created the very complex issues that continue to impact on Indigenous Australians.

In your ignorance (I did think of asking for the post to be removed because of flaming) you reflect an attitude that it is up to you to decide who is a 'real' Aboriginal and who is not.

You attack me personally rather than take the time to learn more about the history. Does this reflect your uncertainty of identity.

You use objectionable terms such as 'half-caste' to insult me.

However, I don't need to justify myself to you.

You take a seagull approach whenever someone doesn't agree with you. You fly around screaming and sh**ing on everything and achieve sweet nothing.

You claim frienship with Aboriginal people you have decided are 'real'.

Well I am not a hologram - I am a real live result of the past policies of genocide, child theft and breeding out the colour.

Perhaps this is not what the government policies meant to happen when trying to breed out the colour, for I am no docile domestic servant.

But I guess Australia has to grow up and learn to live with the results of their attempts at social engineering.

Just remember:
Always was, Always will be Aboriginal land.

Aka

Good on yer. Well said.

eet, i have no problem with white people making comment about Indigenous issues, I just get frustrated when no brainers like you (suck up what could otherwise be productive discussion) with ill informed crap. Then you get defensive when its revealed for what it is? Puleeze!

We're basically reproducing the whole problem here. Seems to me if we'd never used the word Aboriginal here it would be a lot simpler.

On other issues I mostly agree with Rainier and Frankgol, which suggests that we have more commonalities than differences. To me that seems to be the only place left to start solving these problems. And a lot of other problems as well.

aka,
As I recall it was you and FrankGol that attacked eet. You attacked "whites" generally and FG said EET was telling porkies, in other words saying he was a liar.

Nobody has said or indicated that the problems of alcohol, violence, child abuse and drug abuse are purely problems aboriginals have, yet you seem to think that. Of course others have the same problems, and more, but, acording to the reports, no where to the same extent as in aboriginal communities. It is aboriginals that are dieing 20 earlier than the rest of us. eet mentioned ear problems and other problems because of poor hygene. Its funny that FrankGol didn't come across these problems in his 20 years experience, especially when he thinks the remote communities do not have adequate medical clinics.

I seriously do not think you people really want any improvement to aboriginal health. You simply want to keep playing the victim and collect more and more "sit down" money. You still have not put up any suggestion for improvement

Using terms like "sit down money" isn't about solving the problems. They're about finding problems with stereotypically perceived Aboriginal attitudes and they say more about the attitudes of those who use them than about Aborigines or the causes of their problems.

Most helpful Banjo.

Banjo

Your defence of eet is touching but wrong-headed. I did not need to call him a liar. I let his own words and their obvious contradictions speak for themselves (as with you). His claim that "Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country" is simply absurd. No need for me to call him a liar - his words demonstrate his character.

The real issue is that eet threw that absurdity into the debate to make his point that it was all 'their' fault and that everything that could be done had been done.

I did not say that there are no serious health and social problems among Indigenous Australians. Far from it. What I was contesting was eet's analysis of the problem (and now yours).

Likewise, most of us know full well there is no shortage of positive recomendations for improving the lives of Indigenous Australians. You could start with the forgotten recommendations from the "Bringing Them Home" Report (HREOC) and any of several major reports specifically dealing with health issues. The key issue is that of listening to Aboriginal voices and getting them actively involved in developing solutions. There are many non-Indigenous people like you and eet who think they know what's best for Indigenous Australians.

Your own approach is, frankly, perverse. Quote: "you cannot help those that will not help themselves." And you get worse. Quote: "I seriously do not think you people really want any improvement to aboriginal health. You simply want to keep playing the victim and collect more and more "sit down" money." Do you expect to be taken seriously when you assert that people deliberatly take 20 years off their lives for 'sit down money'? I thought 'blaming the victim' mentality went out years ago; but you obviously keep that crude analysis active in your head.

Most problems based on nothing-to-do situation to which case managers contribute with lack of jobs but advising.

FrankGol,
What spin are you trying to put on here? I have been around a bit and Know a little bit about human nature. Try the spin on others, not me.

Firstly, eet said "ask any remote nurse and they will tell you etc. etc". He was emphasising that medical services in most aboriginal communities was adequate or more so in some cases.

Is he right or a liar? Are the remote nurses liars too? Or don't you know and are simply calling him a liar because it suits your agenda? Now he also said that heathy foods are cheaper than rubbish, and gave the mark up for sales. Is he lying here too?

He also said aboriginals know what the healthy foods are. Is that a lie too?

My comment about not being able to help those that won't help themselves is a true saying. One sees it everywhere. Obese people eat cream cakes, chips and gravey, etc. Diabetics not sticking to their diets, Those with kidney disease eating fish and chips laden with salt. Smokers and alcaholics are and drugies are more examples.

For your information, the local aboriginals refer to their welfare as "sit down money", so it is hardly an offensive term. It does amuse me though when welfare recipiants call their welfare "pay".

My comment about "you people not wanting improvement to aboriginal health" was directed to aka and her ilk and some of the other posters on this thread. You are in a different catagory. I think you don't want aboriginal health to improve because lefties can use the poor health to try and get some political gain. You are not the slightest bit interested in aboriginal welfare.

Banjo,

I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but I couldn't help offer some support.

When I read FrankGol's criticism of you for using the term 'sit down' money I had to smile. I hadn’t heard the term until I went to Arnhem Land where it's routinely used by all indigenous people. It’s just another glaring example, something we’ve seen time and time again on this thread, that FrankGol and co have absolutely no idea what goes on in remote communities.

It’s ironic. When you have remote area experience and try to tell people about it, you get accused of lying by charlatans who pass themselves off as experts, but who are proved time and time again to have absolutely no idea. Hence, we get breathtaking statements like, "I was disgusted to find teachers wouldn't teach until the children showered and got into white fellers' clothes". Apart from being unable to make the link between good health outcomes and hygiene, it betrays an astounding ideological pigheadedness - what would FrankGol have teachers do? Let children run around filthy and naked?

You were right, not a single suggestion after 50 posts. When pushed what does FrankGol suggest? Surprise, surprise another report! Lets take a guess what it will say: whites should shut up, feel guilty and pay up. It will have been written by human rights groups who parachute into communities for an Aboriginal experience day. They will be accompanied by Aboriginal industry professionals with 20 years experience, like FrankGol, who steer them in the right direction, make sure they meet the right people and hear the right things. In short, as Sir Humphrey Appleby might say, to make sure everything was ‘sound’.

And the result? Well here’s another surprise. After more than 30 years of self-determination indicators of Aboriginal wellbeing will continue to decline.

These people aren’t impartial professionals trying to improve outcomes for Aboriginals; they’re advocates pushing their beliefs. And that’s why you and I, and Aboriginal health, will not win.

Banjo.

eet's exact words were:" If you speak to any remote area nurse you'll find that Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country." That is not the same as your gloss: "he was emphasising that medical services in most aboriginal communities was adequate or more so in some cases." Look at the difference between eet's and your version. Note your use of 'most', 'adequate' and 'in some cases' compared to eet's 'most prodded, tested and over serviced'.

I did not challenge your use of the term 'sit down money', which I know is widely-used. Read what I actually said. " Do you expect to be taken seriously when you assert that people deliberately take 20 years off their lives for 'sit down money'?" What I found offensive was your use of the crude 'blaming the victim' mentality.

aka can and does speak eloquently for herself. But your abuse of me is ugly and defamatory. Quote: "I think you don't want aboriginal health to improve because lefties can use the poor health to try and get some political gain. You are not the slightest bit interested in aboriginal welfare." I assume you have no proper argument to put forward, hence the resort to personal insult and lies.

eet just can't help himself. Back in, with useful contributions like 'charlatans who pass themselves off as experts' and 'astounding ideological pigheadedness' And another deliberate distortion of my point about recommendations. I did NOT suggest another report. What I said was that there are adequate positive recommendations in a number of reports that have not yet been impemented. We don't need another report; and I did NOT call for one, despite eet alleging I did. Readers will make up their own minds about where the truth lies.

Now what did I say about eet and lies? Why should I call him a liar? His own words show the world what manner of man he is.

FrankGol,

I’ll say it again. Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population.

After all this time you still haven’t managed to grasped my point so I’ll spell it out for you – it doesn’t matter how good the medical facilities are out bush. If people have a poor diet and abuse alcohol they will not live a long and healthy life. In my post I made it clear this didn’t matter whether you were black or white. Yet you call this “simply absurd”. Can you please explain why this is absurd?

You said:

“ [people like eet] challenge the "myth" about Aboriginal health care by telling big porkies about the abundant health services in remote areas”
“breathtaking hypocrisy “
“resort to meaningless rhetoric and hand-wringing”

From your very first post you called me a liar and then went on to accuse me of hypocrisy, meaningless rhetoric and hand-wringing. Like Aka you thought your bully boy tactics would see me too frightened to respond.

You then went on to tell us about yourself:

“I have some credentials. I have taught Indigenous students in the NT and Victoria.….. In the past 20 years I have worked closely with brilliant Indigenous educators who are achieving outstanding results”

Perhaps this was meant to reassure us about your credibility; that you really do know what you’re talking about. But in the same post you tell us how ‘disgusting’ it was for teachers to expect children to be clean. Why was it disgusting?

After being prodded you finally mention a report with ‘positive recommendations’ but you neglect to tell us what they are. Why don’t you tell us? You attack anyone who doesn’t agree with your worldview, won’t explain your inconsistencies and then go on to say my own words prove I’m a liar. How?

You accuse me of having “no stomach for the tough questions” Yet where are your answers?

At least you got one part right – people will read and decide for themselves who is telling ‘porkies’.

eet bleated:

"it doesn’t matter how good the medical facilities are out bush"

So how do you explain the low mortality rate of those who are not alcoholics and who attempt to follow a healthy life style?

And what about those pregnant mothers who must travel and stay near a hospital in a city well before the expected time of baby arrival because the services in remote communities are not adequate?

And what about those old people with renal failure?

You can try to get away in this forum masquerading as someone who knows the realities but it does not fool me for a moment.

For gods’ sake, do some proper research - certainly beyond what you read in the Murdoch press.

Here is a good document to start with
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/DA4283E5D5C265BDCA25722E007B377B/$File/wrkstrgy1.pdf

When you've finished reading this (written by expert researchers and policy makers) come back and try to engage in a real discussion that includes some evidence - and not just your pathetic "armchair" opinions.

eet

I challenge your unqualified assertion - "Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population." I take it you mean they have access to better health services than any other segment of the Australian population? Give me the evidence - as distinct from assertion.

Now your honesty? This is what you allege was our exchange of views: 'If people have a poor diet and abuse alcohol they will not live a long and healthy life. In my post I made it clear this didn’t matter whether you were black or white. Yet you call this “simply absurd"'.

Compare what I actually said: 'His claim that "Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country" is simply absurd.' Blatant distortion.

Another example. You said: "Mindless ideologues like you usually have never left the city and never met an Aboriginal." So I listed my credentials. You respond with a non-sequitur: "But in the same post you tell us how ‘disgusting’ it was for teachers to expect children to be clean. Why was it disgusting?" It was disgusting because the children were not dirty and wore clothes when they came to school. The teachers demeaned them. Tell me any school which would do this with non-Indigenous kids?

Of course, you twisted the facts (without checking the evidence) - "what would FrankGol have teachers do? Let children run around filthy and naked?" Why did you assume they were filthy and naked?

Finally, you say: "After being prodded you [FrankGol] finally mention a report with ‘positive recommendations’ but you neglect to tell us what they are. Why don’t you tell us?" I've told you it's the famous Bringing Them Home Report - and conscientious people working in Indigenous education know its recommendations very well. You appear to be an exception.

Your transparent gambit: "You accuse me of having 'no stomach for the tough questions'. Yet where are your answers?" won't deflect attention away from questions to you posted on 25 February.

Rainier,
Would you have a look at the second sentence of your last post. It reads the opposite to what I think you want it to say.

If you mean that those that do look after themselves are still dieing at a younger age than the rest of us. I certainly cannot say, but I guess the medicos would come up with possible reasons.

Most prudent mothers to be go to larger centers to give birth. My closest large centre has a population of 24,000 approx and last i heard they were having trouble getting a specialist Obstertrician. I think to do with very high professional insurance costs for them. So I would not think it likely that small communities would get specialist medicos. I think those with renal failure would also have to go to the large centres for dyalisis. Its all part of living in rural and remote areas.

Banjo, Well these communities were artificially set up as places where it was expected we would eventually die out. Is this your point? Or should we take responsibility for our historical relocation / impoundment on these concentration camps now that we are all 'equal'?

Whites living in remote areas is a choice they make, for many of us it was the only means of survival available. Sorry if I sound all unappreciative.

Rainier,
The point I was making was that all people that live in rural or remote areas have to go to cities for specialist medical treatment.
You are obviously well educated, so in your case to further your education and professional career. Many people have to leave their home community for work opportunities. I have lived in rural areas all my life, but when my licence won't be renewed or illness comes I will have to move to an urban area. I am not looking forward to that, but its a fact.

So I don't see anything unusual in aboriginal women having to go to a city for the birth of a baby. Its the way modern medicine works.

I can't walk in your shoes, but that shouldn't and won't stop me from commenting on any issue if I consider it worthwhile. It does concern me if one section of our community is dieing 20 years earlier than the rest. It also concerns me that children are abused and neglected by their parents in any location.

I think education for the kids and Job opportunities is the long term solution but how to acheive that is the big question. My only idea is to look to those few successfull communities and see what they do or don't do.

Banjo makes a very good point. There are communities doing quite well for themselves. What are they doing differently? We'd probably know if they were the ones we saw on current affairs shows all the time.

eet on Wednesday, 21 February: 'If you speak to any remote area nurse you'll find that Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country.'

eet on Saturday, 3 March 'I’ll say it again. Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population.'

Banjo on Saturday, 3 March: 'Firstly, eet said "ask any remote nurse and they will tell you etc. etc". He was emphasising that medical services in most aboriginal communities was adequate or more so in some cases.'

Banjo on Sunday 4 March: 'My closest large centre has a population of 24,000 approx and last i heard they were having trouble getting a specialist Obstertrician. I think to do with very high professional insurance costs for them. So I would not think it likely that small communities would get specialist medicos. I think those with renal failure would also have to go to the large centres for dyalisis. Its all part of living in rural and remote areas.'

FranGol today: I think eet's grand claim (and Banjo's endorsement of it) has just been blown out of the water - by Banjo. It's obvious that medical services are far from adequate in Indigenous communities.

So what motivates eet to make such a grand and unsustainable claim in the first place?

Its been very interesting and informing to read over some of the posts on this article. A lot seems to come back to the need to have solutions. I dont think there are any easy solutions. I have said in past debates that problems with any class in society needs to be dealt with on an individual level, and that results shouldnt be expected within a generation. As a product of a conservative farming background, I can actually begin to appreciate the impact of being seperated from what made you who you are. I consider myself very lucky to be in the position that only extreme circumstances will remove the basis of my identity. I see my husband struggle with depression on an ongoing basis because he HAS had that removed from him, through no fault of his own. I really can appreciate it, as I know how much my land means to me.

Yes, there are good NURSING services provided to a number of remote indigenous communities. This is not the same as good medical services. Perhaps it should not be though. The provision of services should always bear some correlation to the demand. Yes, it may be truer that those whites that live in remote areas have chosen to - notice that I say truer. Note though that these remote black communities with what facilities they do have, would not exist were it not for white man setting them up. Would better medical services be available to those blacks living there if they were still nomadic? Probably not. I do say probably though, as its not a given

FrankGol,

I'll try to join the dots for you once again. Aboriginals receive completely free health care. This means there are no restrictions on how often they seek medical help. This is a good thing and I'm not arguing against it. However, as has been found in the wider community, when people receive medical services for free they tend to over use them. Poor understanding of medical conditions among remote Aborigines tends to exacerbate the problem. Hence, Aboriginals get constantly tested for all kinds of ailments ie they are 'prodded' for tests. (Rainier, no need for expensive academic studies, this is simply economics 101.)

Many whites spend a great part of their lives in communities but don't die 20 years earlier. If it's purely because of medical services why aren't whites dying earlier too?

Where is the distortion?

I'm not sure if I understand your response to the 'disgusting' question. You seem to be implying the children were clean with clean clothes yet some teacher decided to make them wash out of racism. Your original post said:
"In my first placement I was disgusted to find teachers wouldn't teach until the children showered and got into white fellers' clothes."

It seems pretty straightforward to me. I think you're doing the distorting now.

"Why did you assume they were filthy and naked?"

Well, normally people shower and change clothes when they're dirty. I do however see your point. You're trying to tie me by association to the teacher who suddenly became a racist when the link between hygiene and health was pointed out to you.

Mmm, I see who's "twisting the facts"

“So what motivates eet to make such a grand and unsustainable claim in the first place? “

Oh, I see, it’s confirmed; must be racism! At last, your poverty of ideas is confirmed. You’ve resorted to the last bastion of the inept. When all else fails; cry racism.

Rainier,

I’m in awe of your intellect. When I finally work out what ‘intersubjective discourse’ means I might feel worthy of your presence.

eet

You're being a bit precious and defensive aren't you? I called you wrong. I called you inconsistent. I said you were confused. And that you exaggerated the medical facilities provided for Indigenous people. Where did I call you racist?

You say: "I'm not sure if I understand your response to the 'disgusting' question. You seem to be implying the children were clean with clean clothes yet some teacher decided to make them wash out of racism." You've got it, at last!

I asked you: "Why did you assume they were filthy and naked?" And you answered: "Well, normally people shower and change clothes when they're dirty." Precisely. But eet, the children had no choice. It was the teachers who compelled them to shower. No exceptions. One dirty, all dirty.

You say: "You're trying to tie me by association to the teacher who suddenly became a racist when the link between hygiene and health was pointed out to you." Am I? Show me where I do that. Or is it in your head?

I asked: “So what motivates eet to make such a grand and unsustainable claim (about abundant medical services) in the first place? “ And you replied: "Oh, I see, it’s confirmed; must be racism! At last, your poverty of ideas is confirmed. You’ve resorted to the last bastion of the inept. When all else fails; cry racism." What kind of logic is that? Is there only one possible reason for your making that unsustainable claim? What about pig ignorance? What about being misled? What about lying? What about exaggeration for effect? Why pick on racism? Perhaps when all else fails, cry foul - that you have been labelled a racist.

Or are you just trying to deflect the awkward question? It remains: why did you make and repeat the claim that "Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country" when it's clearly not true?

Banjo,

I was born in a remote community, no doctors, nurses, just traditional midwives. Birth mortality rate was higher than it is now.

My overall point is that many communities do not even have adequate primary health care services and that the cost and imposition of travelling to the big smoke is financially and socially much more traumatic than many realise.

And for many critically ill old people the trip to the big smoke is one they fear is the last one. They choose to simply die at home instead.

And finally my eduation simply means I can tell you what my people are saying

FrankGol,

Sorry I took your innuendo the wrong way. Next time you insinuate something negative, I promise to take the second worst option.

I've explained and stood by my statement about health services a few times now. Go back and read my posts; the answers are all there. The problem is you don't want to accept them. Accepting them would mean Aborigines would have to take responsibility for their own decisions. Of course, then you wouldn't be able to blame everyone except Aborigines for their problems. Is there one thing they could do better to improve their health?

I won’t hold my breath for an answer. So far its been 74 posts and the closest you’ve come to a suggestion was to say I should read a ‘famous’ report. What does this report say Aborigines could do? We know we white fellas should build a maternity hospital in every community (according to Rainier), but what about Aborigines – should they do anything?

Until it’s widely accepted the best people to help Aborigines are Aborigines, nothing will improve. And this debate will get nowhere.

eet

In the hope that you really are interested in Indigenous health issues and know only what you've been told, I'll point you towards some important sources of information.

The Bringing Them Home Report is particularly worth reading the chapter on the causes of Indigenous mental health problems (www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/stolen/)

Australian Indigenous Healthinfonet is an outstanding web resource - a 'one-stop info-shop' for people interested in improving the health of Indigenous Australians. You can find information on just about any topic(www.healthinfonet.ecu.edu.au/)

The Medical Journal of Australia's online version is called the eMJA. See e.g. the article by Cunningham, Cass and Arnold, "Bridging the Treatment Gap for Indigenous Australians" (MJA 182 (10) 2005: pages 505-50) There's another article in the same issue by Coory and Walsh about access to coronary procedures which the editors say "adds to a growing body of evidence that Indigenous Australians do not receive the same level of care as other Australians." (www.mja.com.au/public/issues/182_10_160505/cun10262_fm.html)

The Australian Institute of Health & Welfare, "The Health and Welfare of Australia's Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples 2005", found that "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have low levels of access to, and use of, health services such as Medicare, the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) and private GPs... They face a number of barriers to accessing services including distance from services, lack of transport (particularly in remote areas), financial difficulties and proximity of culturally appropriate services. The relatively low proportion of Indigenous people involved in health-related professions can also affect use of health services by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people." (www.aihw.gov.au/publications/index.cfm/title/10172)

This should tickle your interest in Aboriginal people taking responsibility for their own health (quote: "what about Aborigines – should they do anything?") Have a look e.g. at the Kimberley Aboriginal Medical Services Council, Inc. (www.kamsc.org.au/documents/krahp_report.pdf) or the Derbarl Yerrigan Health Service Inc in WA in which about 70% of the staff are Aboriginal (www.derbarlyerrigan.com.au/).

eet, we agree on one major point: "Until it’s widely accepted the best people to help Aborigines are Aborigines, nothing will improve." But they need fair dinkum amounts of money and lots more trained medical staff.

FrankGol,
You are still putting spin on what others say. When I say that people in rural and remote areas have to go to cities to get specialist treatment, it does not mean what you say. " It is abvious that medical services are far from adequate in indigenous communities". You would be the only person that suggests that if a clinic in a small community does not have the facilities or staff to carry out major surgery it is classed LESS than adequate. You know what you say is ridiculous, but it is only spin to you.

Rainier,
I had deduced some time back that you came from a small community.

I am also aware that infant mortality was high, also high was the mortality of mothers. Things improved a lot after Penicilin became widely used after WW2, but improvements were much slower in remote areas.

I appreciate the reluctance of some people, especially older ones,of not wanting to go to cities for treatment. I have been down that track and I know that the cost and the truamua is great. One prefers familiar suroundings.

What does surprize is that you say....."many communities do not have adequate primary medical services". I have no reason to doubt either you or eet and what you say is contrary to eet. I can only suppose that the services are adequate in some areas and not in others. Perhaps those who allocated the funds spent it on differing priorities, e.g. housing, in differing areas.

If adequate medical services are not available, then that is something that must be improved. But would not the authorities already know that? I did not notice it in that paper you gave the link to earlier. Maybe i missed it as I saw the paper to do with training aboriginal nurses, which is a good thing in itself.

Banjo this is getting silly. eet was unequiivocal when he said: 'If you speak to any remote area nurse you'll find that Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country.' I challenged him, and you defended him.

You then said that your nearest large centre (population 24,000) were having trouble getting a specialist Obstertrician. And you generalised about the problems of access to specialist services - "Its all part of living in rural and remote areas."

Now you say I am putting spin on what you say. With breathtaking hypocrisy you then say to me: "You would be the only person that suggests that if a clinic in a small community does not have the facilities or staff to carry out major surgery it is classed LESS than adequate." I ask you where I said that? Who's putting spin on my words?

No matter. You now clarify matters. In answer to Rainier you now say: "What does surprize is that you say.....'many communities do not have adequate primary medical services'. I have no reason to doubt either you or eet and what you say is contrary to eet. I can only suppose that the services are adequate in some areas and not in others. Perhaps those who allocated the funds spent it on differing priorities, e.g. housing, in differing areas."

So you think both eet and Rainier are truthful; but how can they both be right? You know they can't, therefore you resolve your logical perplexity by concluding: "I can only suppose that the services are adequate in some areas and not in others." In other words, eet is wrong to claim that 'Aboriginals are the most prodded, tested and over serviced segment of the population in the country.' Some services are inadequate.

Can I suggest you read some of the references I cited in my last post to eet (above). I can see no reason with the AMA or the Australian Institute of Health & Welfare would publish lies or mere spin, can you?

FrankGol,
I must say that I now concur with Rainier..... " many communities do not have adequate primary health services" I did my own research and that with the knowledge that I have never known Rainier to spread bull or say something he could not back up. Rainier and I have certainly had differences of opinion but he is fair dinkum.

I still take umbrage at you taking my comment about rural and remote people having to go to cities for specialist treatment and then deduce from that "Its obvious that medical services are far from adequate in indigenous communieies"

Its obvious that you do not like it when the same is done to you.

I still do not think you care one bit about aboriginal welfare. To you it is simply spin to push your political agenda.

Banjo

It's good that you can find common ground with Rainier in agreeing that " many communities do not have adequate primary health services".

Whichever way I reached my conclusion that: "It's obvious that medical services are far from adequate in Indigenous communities", it seems that you and Rainier and I are singing from the same songbook. How, if at all, do we disagree on this essential conclusion?

Banjo, you say to me: "I still do not think you care one bit about aboriginal welfare. To you it is simply spin to push your political agenda." Two questions:
1) Please tell me what evidence you have to support this slander?
2) You seem to know, so please tell me what is my political agenda?

So what's the more urgent matter here Banjo, aboriginal health or somebody's political agenda? What matters more, fixing the problems or arguing about who gets to fix them?

The most urgent task is understanding a nature of a problem rather than paying a next bunch of mates for telling tales about particular specified issue.

chainsmoker,
It is pretty obvious what the priority is and I am not the one with a political agenda. My fear is that if the health of aborigines continues to deteriorate with alcohol, drug abuse and petrol sniffing, the whole race is doomed to extinction. We have tried the passive welfare track and current information is that the situation is worse.

I have no time for those that really want the current situation to continue so they can use it to discredit the Government, whichever it be,for not doing enough. Have a look at the previous posts here and see how many positive suggestions there are.

While I have the floor, one other matter occured to me. Is it the right thing to do to compare the length of aboriginal life to that of others ,in terms of total population. Would it not be more accurate to compare the urban lifespans of aboriginals and other urban dwellers.

Then compare the lifespans of remote area aboriginals with that of others living in remote areas. I think that would be more accurate and give a truer picture of what the situation is.

Banjo, I think you're onto something there with the urban/remote thing. I'm not aboriginal so probably have no right to say this, but the idea that the only real aborigine lives in the outback sh!ts me to tears.

As others have pointed out though, service provision isn't evenly spread around the country, so if you're going to do the urban/remote comparison you'd also have to do a community by community one. Qld wouldn't do terribly well out of that I suspect.

You could then get a clearer picture of what works, what doesn't, and what the various contributors to the problem might be rather than just blaming aborigines, whites, right or left. It cannot be that simple.

Banjo

Nearly a week ago in response to a post by you I wrote:

'Banjo, you say to me: "I still do not think you care one bit about aboriginal welfare. To you it is simply spin to push your political agenda." Two questions:
1) Please tell me what evidence you have to support this slander?
2) You seem to know, so please tell me what is my political agenda?'

I take it by your total silence that the answer to my questions is you have no evidence to produce and that you have no idea what my 'political agenda' might be - if indeed there is one.

Therefore, it can be concluded that you simply engaged your typing fingers withour remembering to keep them connected to your brain. If you are going to engage in personal slander it's as well to marshal some facts in support.