I haven't been looking at this debate for some time. How did it get onto Marxism? It has been said that Marx claimed to be an expert on the working class but never did a day's work in his life!

Tao you are going over the top. Real life is full of good and bad, success and failure and compromise. No system is perfect nothing is completely fair. Governments surely should regulate those who are doing harm to others but allowing invention and initiative to flourish. This is difficult and mistakes will always be made.

I have been a worker and in later life a very minor capitalist. I have seen much and like to think I am a Practical Idealist. But flexibility as Col points out so often leads to the best result. I would rather live in Australia than for example. in Cuba, North Korea or Iran

Well Tao is yet to state his clear agenda, but reading between the
lines it sounds kind of obvious.

Perhaps Tao has Mao's little red book under his pillow :)

Market economics is not perfect, but its far better then
govt by idealistic, beaurocratic fanatics!

Innovation is the key and innovation happens when people have
options and choices, not when some committee wants to run
their lives

Col,

If Lenin made a secret deal with Germany, how do you know about it? What evidence do you have, and who provided it to you? You wouldn’t be blindly taking the word of those who wished to discredit him and the Revolution would you?

You seem intent on conflating Stalinism with Marxism. Have you actually studied both of them in depth? Do you understand the difference between Stalin’s theory of Socialism in one Country and the theory of International Socialism? Did you know that there was actually an opposition to Stalin within the Bolshevik party, which he exiled and/or exterminated?

I’m not quite sure what you mean by the following:

“Lenin-said-“While-the-State-exists,-there-can-be-no-freedom.-When-there-is-freedom-there-will-be-no-State.”

Whilst-that-is-a-strong-stance,-it-also-displays-the-cynicism-which-lays-at-the-heart-of-socialism-and-communism,-since-he-did-also-profess-“The-goal-of-socialism-is-communism.”

and

“Lenin-said-“Under-socialism-all-will-govern-in-turn-and-will-soon-become-accustomed-to-no-one-governing.”

How does this amount to cynicism? In a nutshell, Marxist theory posits that following the international working class revolution, workers will dominate society, suppressing capitalist classes, and reorganise society on the basis of human need, eliminating privilege (i.e. classes). Once a classless society is established, the State will no longer be required to enforce inequality and will wither away. Simply put (but probably not exactly correct), socialism (the lowest form of communism) is the domination of the working class (a workers state), communism (the highest form) is the absence of the state. Given these distinctions, there has obviously never been a “communist State” as the term is a nonsense. Anyone who suggests that there has ever been a communist state obviously doesn’t understand Marxism.

”He-had-different-thoughts-later-

“All-our-lives-we-fought-against-exalting-the-individual,-against-the-elevation-of-the-single-person,-and-long-ago-we-were-over-and-done-with-the-business-of-a-hero,-and-here-it-comes-up-again:-the-glorification-of-one-personality.-This-is-not-good-at-all.-I-am-just-like-everybody-else.”

I-guess-he-realised,-that-despite-“A-lie-told-often-enough-becomes-the-truth.”,-everything-does-come-back-to-the-“individual”

I would need a reference for this quote in order to put Lenin’s words into context, but to me he sounds like he is criticizing the glorification of himself as hero. Hardly the image of a man intent on gaining personal power and accolades as you so often accuse him of.

As is so often the case, Col, your simplistic assessment reveals your ignorance. But what else should one expect from a person who reduces complex social phenomena to the presence or absence of gonads? Especially given that gonads refers to both testes and ovaries. LOL

Well, still no clearcut answers as to Tao's solutions for the
world. Clearly a bit of verbal masturbation does not cut it
either!

Tao, time to put up or shut up. It really is.

Oh and by the way Col,

Dear old Margaret has outdone herself recently in her public mourning for the death of a military dictator and mass murderer.

She was “deeply saddened” by the death of Pinochet.

An exemplary fellow he must have been, overthrowing an elected government.

At the time of his death, Pinochet was facing some 300 legal cases related to the crimes carried out by his regime and stood accused of embezzling tens of millions of dollars in state funds and funnelling them into overseas secret bank accounts.

Yes, dear old Maggie had campaigned for his release when he was arrested in London calling him a “great friend of Britain”.

Mmmmm……says it all really, that you choose to be guided by the moral compass of dearest Margaret.

Tao “If Lenin made a secret deal with Germany, how do you know about it?”

At the time it was made it was secret. After its occurance it became common knowledge

“By aiding his return to Russia, the Germans hoped (correctly) to disrupt the Russian war effort. . . . . Lenin fulfilled his promise of peace by accepting the humiliating treaty of Brest-Litovsk (Mar., 1918).”

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Lenin-Vl.html

One of about 800,000 references to “Lenin Return to Russia”

As for “Stalin’s theory of Socialism in one Country and the theory of International Socialism”

As Lenin said “the goal of socialism is communism” and international socialism lead to Stalinism.

Talk is cheap, theories are ten-a-penny, physical outcomes are what people suffer. From socialist “theories”, the horrific outcomes of communist realities are well documented.

Re “Col, your simplistic assessment reveals your ignorance.” As spoken by one of Lenin’s “useful idiots”

“She (Margaret Thatcher ) was “deeply saddened” by the death of Pinochet”

Margaret Thatcher is entitled to her view, maybe she knows more than you or me about the alternatives to Pinochet at the time, I am not sure.

I would note, Thatcher came into UK politics and reached the pinnacle of power by standing up the communists (Scargill & Co) of the NUM. You also overlook, she stood up to the right wing military dictatorship of Argentina with the unambiguous support of the British population and the Falkland Islanders.

I would further note, the Soviets were terrified by her resolve, which did much to stop Brezhnev’s imperialist ambitions.

“says it all really, that you choose to be guided by the moral compass of dearest Margaret.”

Margaret Thatcher was one person who supported and served a process of democratic evolution.
Stalin and Communists leaders made the political process their slave and ordinary Russian citizens slaves to that process.

If your deluded support for the corrupt politics of socialism (leading to communism) is any guide, you are not fit to judge anything which Margaret Thatcher has said or done.