camo, "Irfan also likes to distance female genital mutilation from Islam, but can he explain why it is practised in Indonesia, where it is increasing in extent and severity?"

At a guess it will be like a lot of "christain" cultural bit's and pieces that has travelled along with christianity but are not actually part of it's message. A combination of missionary types not seperating out their own culture from their message and converts failing to to so as well.

A simple means for a convert to learn how to live out their faith is to try and emulate the practices of those who brought them the message even when that includes bits that are not really part of the message.

R0bert

Dear F.H. no mate..I did not ignore your post about M and the Bible but I can't post again to that thread for some hours.... u know..the rules etc.

I've seen that theory before, and must reject it for a variety of reasons, none of which are that I'm just pig headed :)

I've got a good one to use with aliteration, extending what I said about Keiths post..

Hows things up there in Sydney mate ? looks like the Cronulla anniversary has passed without incident...good. I had my 'piece' of Leb Muslims though :) had a spar with one at my gym, but he ran out of puff..(me 57 he 22ish I tried to get the idea through his head that the goal was not to 'kill' me but he kept on coming :) running kinda..buff punch etc..I think thats why he got tired.. too much enthusiasm not enough thinking. But he is only new, been there like 2 weeks.. takes 2 months to get fit. next time "Lakemba" will win and Skippy" Cronulla take a dive eh :) Or.. maybe he just went easy on me because it seemed like hitting his Dad.

Thanx for pointing out what appears to be intellectual dishonesty, I always need such counsel :)

What do you think of my 'ONE NATION' idea ? (see the Creative use of current events thread)
avagood1

Hello RObert - you make my point exactly - if FGM was spread initially to Indonesia by Muslims, and it's not an 'article of faith' (I've read it's mentioned in the Koran, but not required of a good muslim) why can it not be examined and jetisoned? Or would Islam's clergy (the Ayatollahs, Imams, Mullahs and the like, all from a religion which claims to have no clergy) object and start handing out apostacy fatwas? And even all four Sunni schools still prescribe death for apostacy.
Comparing one religion's faults by saying they're just like another religion's faults gets the reader no-where. And it's a particularly misleading argument when the supposed faults are dissimilar, or belong to a not-named religion (it was judaism which started circumcision, after all, not christianity).
I'm not in favour of any religion, not the least because they can't agree: they can't even agree to disagree. Competing truth claims is their field. People, and societies, must be able to choose to be free from religion. Islam of all of them can't handle this. Islam thinks it's bad enough to have the wrong religion - to have none at all is inexplicable. Did I mention the pre-feudal mindset?

Irfan, Hirsi Ali is a politician and you have to read her articles within the context of dutch politics at the time. Many of the articles in the Maagdenkooi(2004) are a reply to critisims of the Zoontjesfabriek(2002).

De Maagdenkooi is better translated as the "virgin's cage". In it she addresses gender issues in the non western implementation of Islam. ie the female is seen as a lust object. The male as a randy goat who will jump on any unknown woman with in reach. (Shades of Sheik Hilali?) To prevent this, women are placed in a cage. The first level of the cage is that women are restricted to the home and only allowed out under cover and with a chaperon. Genital mutilation forms a further way to protect virginity whether it is the ritual removal of the inner labia or the full removal of the outer labia, clitoris accompanied with the scarring of the vaginal walls.

Hirsi Ali sees herself as a freedom fighter for Muslim women. Whether she will be regarded in the same light as a Mandela or King remains to be seen but as anyone questioning the heart of ones culture her views arouse plenty of passion and controversy.

That Hirsi Ali left dutch politics in disgrace is plainly untrue. The immigration minister Rita Verdonk has had strong leadership ambitions and has been critised as not being tough enough. To counter this she revoked Hirsi Ali's citizenship. She was immediately rebuked by the PM and the same week Hirsi Ali was granted honorary citizenship by the parliament which also expressed its regret at how the matter was handled. Verdonk's party lost a quarter of its seats in last months election.

That Hirsi Ali went into hiding is hardly surprising. Her fellow muslim critics Fortuyn and van Gogh were murdered in 2002 and 2004.

I am no expert on Islam but I suspect that the Islam practised in Europe by mostly North African migrants is quite different from classical Islam or the Islam of south and south-east asia encountered in Australia

Camo. I think you are deliberately misinterpreting what Irfan is saying about culturally different experiences and religion.

On the issue of Gender – If I were a man brought up in an Amish community I that would be aware that in this culture women were supposed to dress modestly, (long skirts and sleaves with a bonnet). Equally, If I were a woman brought up in a Amish community I would be aware that men were supposed to grow there beards long. But there is no doubt that man or women Amish I would not culturally recognise the cultural practices of Mexican Catholicism. Nothing to do with gender – everything to do with collective, male and female, cultural experience.

As for FGM. This is a cultural practice by some, (not all and by no means the majority), African cultures. In fact the extreme practice is quite limited to certain areas. I am assuming the practice has travelled to other cultures the same way MGM, (Male Genital Mutilation - circumcision), has travelled though the west and promoted by the west to other countries. There is no overwhelming medical need for either practice – they are both cruel and inexcusable. But it is difficult to convince an African woman who is a part of one of these cultures that it is the wrong thing to do. Without the practice her daughter would remain marageless and their for condemned to a life of abject poverty, (there are no social benefits in the third world). So the issue is one of poverty and development – not religion.

The ideas are not a ‘left’ conspiracy but rather an attempt at enlightened understanding that may lead to a better world. This means positively dealing with the reality rather than simplistic, ignorant and chauvinistic ideas that are popular precisely because they are simplistic.

I've given up on Irfan Yusuf who tries to hide his bigotry behind little seemingly harmless homilies about Islam. It this instance he uses a book "review" to talk about the different cultures practising Islam.

Do these different cultures have different versions of the Koran, one is bound to ask.

I must say, if we are talking about culture and Islam, I feel comfortable about Malaysian Muslims, but not about Arab Muslims who seem to always be the ones in the limelight.

Is there a difference, or does Irfan, like me, prefer cultures other than Arab?

I would be called a racist. How about Irfan?