“Historically, the education debate has focused on issues such as more money, smaller classes and more teachers, as shown by debates in these pages during the past 12 months. Equally important is the cultural significance of education, something the prime minister clearly understands.”

This is correct.

There are areas of boy’s education in particular that have gone backwards over a 30 year period. But 30 years ago, it was quite common to have a class size of 30 or more students, and there was no such thing as teacher aids.

So what is the reason for this backwards decline over that 30 year period?

Ah - another dishup from Kevin.

Same suet of vague ideas and throwaway lines about curriculum influences (by people he likely doesn't talk to), the same brave, defiant and insubstantial gestures in the general direction of “the left”

And most notably, a complete disregard for the practicalities of and implications of the rollout of $90 millions' worth of Chaplaincy grants.

Has Kevin seriously examined the concerns of the Independent Education Union of Australia?
I can read no evidence that he understands their concerns, that he sees anything of their point. Or perhaps their worries weren't leftist enough to merit his view.

Or is he just too busy, fixing his gimlet eye on his "moral compass"?

Sir Vivor,

I’ve talked to teachers. I’ve lived with a number of teachers.

Why is this so?

“While girls’performance in literacy results has remained relatively stable over the past 25 years, overall, boys’results have fallen to a significant degree.

Between 1975 and 1995 the proportion of 14-year-old male students who demonstrated mastery on reading tests declined from 70% to 66%, while the corresponding proportion of female students changed little, from 73% to 74%. From 1975 to 1998, the mean score for male students in reading comprehension decreased significantly, from 50.2 to 49.0. The results of female students did not change significantly during the same period (rising from 51.1 in 1975 to 51.3 in 1998).”

http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/school_education/publications_resources/profiles/educating_boys.htm

So why has there been a backward decline in 50% of the students, and why should parents continue to listen to teachers and their excuses?

Any answers?

I find it somewhat fascinating, that when people talk of education going backwards, they fail to mention the new skills students learn today.

Tell me... were IT skills taught to students 30 years ago? Did students know how to use microsoft word, or powerpoint?

What about mathematics? Did slide rules assist students in triggonometry? Did the students learn triggonometry in senior high school?

We hear about how students learned latin back then, and yes, I'll admit that literacy may not be taught as well today as it has been in the past.

But don't ignore the vast amounts of information that have been learned in the last three decades, and must also be taught to students.

And in regard to the whole chaplain thing... I still have yet to see a decent explanation as to why psychologists or councillors couldn't have been offered instead without all this kerfuffle. It would have made sense, and it wouldn't have been blatant politicking, which leads me to believe that that's really all this has been.

Some wit long ago defined a fool as one who comes to believe his own propaganda, and Kevin Donnelly once again demonstrates the truth of that definition with yet another vacuous straw-man piece recycled from The Australian.

A long-serving Liberal Party apparatchik, Mr Donnelly keeps serving up the hypocritical cant about values: John Howard right, Labor Party, teachers and teacher unions wrong. And wrong for at least four decades now, according to Kev (notwithstanding Liberal Party dominance of the political scene for most of that time).

For Kev, it all began with “the progressive education movement of the 1960s and '70s, the belief is that children should be left to their own devices and that adults should not impose a strong moral framework”. (I wonder how many students of that era remember those halcyon days?) Then came the “self-esteem movement of the '80s and '90s, when education was reduced to therapy on the basis that nobody failed, compounded the problem as lessons focused on what was immediately entertaining and relevant to the world of the student.” (Oh bliss! Yet why did I fail Year 11 Maths?)

And, unless I’m misreading Kev’s rant about post-moderism in education, the rotten state of education continues into this century despite 10 years of John Winston Howard’s wisdom.

I especially loved Kev’s quoting Pope John Paul II’s concern for “the lack of confidence in truth”. You see, I’d just finished reading about how the PM and Alexander Downer sparked Australia's biggest biological terror scare last year when they exaggerated test results to claim white powder sent to the Indonesian embassy in Canberra was a "biological agent" when they were explicitly told that it was nothing of the sort. It was shown to be flour.

The irony is so cute - on the day that the latest of the litany of Howard’s lies is publicly exposed our Kev is regurgitating our PM’s concern for the enduring truth to be taught in our schools.

This isnt about values and schools - this is another position paper propagating contempt for educators and in turn those he sees as being on the left

Our education system is responsible for churning out world leaders in science, the yarts and business - most of them have sound values one would assume - we punch above our weight in these matters - the US is awash with Australian educated CEO's -

all this in spite of Donelly's assumption that for years education at all levels is a cpative of the left - well if it is, it is doing a pretty god job in spite of that - or more to the point because of that - or maybe those who decry the public institutions reckon all the success stories come from home schooling or the private system - I dont think so.

The broader debate on values is a weak attempt to create an arbitrary point of difference between us and them - the them usually being marginalised migrant or refugee groups who are here already or want to come here -

this essayist has been duped into being part of that - and is having a ideological dig at the unions et al along the way.

I am surprised to see the matter raised again - Howard, Costello and Nelson dropped it from their script a good while ago when it failed to gain traction with the people at large -

Until rececntly this country didnt have a problem with values.

Psychologists.... oh yes mate :) THEY would be happy to spend time at schools for errr.. $20/hour :) NOT....

The principle and idea behind Chaplains.. honestly... I'm not sure where the government is coming from. It might be for symbolic reasons... It might be 'saying' something about our national Culture... who can read John H.s mind ?

Then, the problem of truly born again Chaplains... (the 'ordinary' kind is as useful as tits on a bull) or would they just be nominal ones ? If children asked them 'What is life all about' ? Would they hum and har and stumble around for some politically correct theory that basically says nothing about everything ?

If they came out with a firm declaration that Life..is about knowing and loving God through Christ, by the Spirit....how would their parents react ?

Many many questions.

While there have been many philosophers, founders of religions and thinkers, The only true moral compass is Christ Jesus. But setting ones life in the direction he points to is through a faith encounter and renewed life.

Perhaps instead of 'chaplains' we just need to see national repentance to God and inner renewal on a massive scale ?

That is my prayer anyway.

Hmm... true, Psychologists may not be cheap, but counsellors could be.

The whole values debate will always revolve around different people pushing their own values on others.

We can agree that things such as violence, cruelty, harassment and so forth should be condemned.

So rather than dragging religion into this, counsellors would be a step toward actually doing something constructive instead of pushing an ideological agenda.

It's all very well to refer to secularism as an agenda, but damnit, it is as close to neutral as we're going to get, and few are actually going to advocate that faith be instilled as a part of our government - so why should we let it be a part of our schools?

The Cold War finished a long time ago Kev. Theory got over postmodernism about a decade ago, round about the time your mate Howard started fixing education by freezing funding. Good idea, that.

You don't seem to have noticed that your opposition in the culture wars got bored and moved on a while back.

Good thing you're interested in mythology. It might help you understand the nature of your mythological opponents.

State wide education is failing in every State.
It fails to address the basic need of children.
Most modern day young boys dream to be gunslinging hit men,thanks to video games and Hollywood.
Young girls are likely to dream of being the "Hitmans Ho."
This may shock many but the diet of TV programmes currently being shown in Australia is directed to this end.
As a youngster I had a Cowboy outfit but it was an unrealistic dream
to become a Cowboy as they were characters from a previous era.
Reality TV is hard hitting young people, and many see the abuse show on TV as their own real world.
It is hard for teachers to be blaimed,for not controlling the class room,when a childs brain is full of confrontational violence.
Seeing or heard the TV while Mum and Dad watch realistic crime all night.
The Moral standard of TV needs to improve then hand the State Education system back to the Federal Governmnet.
How can any countries Educational system be taken seriously when it has eight Education Ministers at any one time.

Boaz,
When I was a child I was taught about 4 good-luck parental-deity story book characters. Jesus, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny and santa claus.

When I became an adult(in fact long before) it became obvious that 3 of these good-luck parental-deity characters were false and in fact lies. And a little more quite elemenary investigation proved that the "jesus" story book character was plain and simply not true.Being little more than cartoon characters like Daffy Duck, Fat Freddy's Cat and Mr Zippy.
Mr Zippy is outrageously funny especially in relation to self righteous god-botherers like Boaz.

Jesus as "moral" compass! The fact of the matter is that throughout history countless millions of humans have been murdered in the name of "jesus". Take the history of the reformation & counter-reformation inspired catholic vs protestant wars that ruined Europe. Millions were slaughtered because they adhered to differing interpretaions of "jesus". Ever noticed how christian apologists seldom if ever mention that dark period of European history.Such collective insanity being the background in which the separation of church and state became a foundation of western democracies. A principle which Boaz and his fellow true believers, especially in the USA, want to abolish so that they can establish "gods" reign on earth.
A hard rain will definitely fall if that occurs.
Take Henry the Vlll the "founder" of the Anglican church. He was a serial killer, a mass murderer and the greatest thieve and vandal in English history.
And lets not forget the Trident submarine named USS (City) of Corpus Christie. A very "moral" compass indeed!

Dear HRM
re:
"I’ve talked to teachers. I’ve lived with a number of teachers.
Why is this so?"

I don't know.

But more to your point, I don't know what the current research on boys' literacy shows in terms of efficacious programs. My guess is that $90 million dollars for school chaplains will not address the literacy problems that concern you, or serve to implement any literacy programs with a proven track record, at any school.

Naturally I'd be delighted to learn that there are programs which the Federal Government could fund, say through IOSP or ASISTM, which would indirectly address the gender difference you point out in literacy rates. Any suggestions?

In any case, I believe the issue of boys' literacy and adolescent male disengagement from schooling would be better addressed by $90 million in direct funding for literacy, rather than for Chaplaincy.

Good luck in your pursuit

As an atheist I do not really mind that the Chaplains are in schools. The curious thing is that there is actually evidence that religiosity is actually lower in people have attended church schools. A visible symptom is that catholic schools are brimming but the parish churches are almost empty and ARE empty of young people. Incidently I am a son
of a chaplain.
Everone knows, or should know, that the best predictor of success at school is not anything the schools do but what the parents are. PISA< TIMMS etc ad nauseum have shown this. It is plausible that it predicts "values" as well.If this is the case then rating about schools and their failures does not help.

It is always curious that people rave on about values when it really behaviour that matters. Research by National bureau of economic research http://www.nber.org/ (I know it is an economics site but the stuff they do on education is excellent - look the stuff on school choice)indicates that going to a Catholic school in US does not seem to produce less deviant behaviour.

School are important but not for what Kevin wants. If you wish to read why poverty makes such a difference - it affects both the hard wiring and software of the brain. (trifle facile but you will understand)

Poverty, privilege, and brain development:
empirical findings and ethical implicationsMartha J. Farah,et al
http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~mfarah/farah_SES_05.pdf

Seminal works on the probable why = The social world of children learning to talk / c1999. or

Meaningful differences in the everyday experience of young American children /Hart, Betty, 1927.
Do a Google citation search on Hart Risely

The die is cast pretty well before the child is 3 years old and there is not recogition that most of the outcomes for children rest in the hands of parents. A blame should not enter into it

"Consider how the union's curriculum policies have forced a politically correct, cultural-left agenda on schools, redefining the three Rs as the republic, refugees and reconciliation."

Those are REALLY the new "Three Rs"? How interesting, Kevin. No doubt you will provide a link to show that the AEU actually really truly ruly did say that, right?

Kev Donnelly needs to sit in a history classroom.

There he will observe young Australians not only engaged in rigorous class work but also learning important skills such as how to understand the role of processes of causation, change and continuity.

But of significant importance for young Australians is that they will grow up knowing that prostututing themselves to an ideologically driven agenda (driven by media and political masters) is not scholarship or critical thinking. It's just licentious and cheap political whoring.

Hi Rainier,

You argue:

"But of significant importance for young Australians is that they will grow up knowing that prostututing themselves to an ideologically driven agenda (driven by media and political masters) is not scholarship or critical thinking. It's just licentious and cheap political whoring."

Maybe you should deconstruct some of your language - why the psycho-sexual thing about ladies of the night? Very anti-PC.

Kevin

Kev, why do you presume whoring only applies to women?

"Each age writes the history of the past anew with reference to the conditions uppermost in its own time … The aim of history, then, is to know the elements of the present by understanding what came into the present from the past. For the present is simply the developing past, the past the undeveloped present … The antiquarian tries to bring back the past for the sake of the present; the historian strives to show the present to itself by revealing its origin from the past. The goal of the antiquarian is the dead past; the goal of the historian is the living present".

Frederick Jackson Turner, 1891

A proper and well balanced article, nice and scholarly, and without the PC. Well done Donnelly.

I note too, that it supports centrist, perhaps slight right assumptions; and im fine with that too. The gobeldeegook that comes out of curricula these days is something to be wary of. It could easily gain its own momentum, and before we know it it has become law or tradition, or something like that.

I wholeheartedly despise hearing about how schools inculcate politicisation in the early years. As we are aware, Mao did this quite well. I am of the opinion that this can wait, and that Labor should not be poking its nose into education in the developing years. Paticularly as it appears as a tool for future Labor entrenchment. In my area, there is a barage of politicians getting about in schools and kiddy propaganda.

I would hesitate to call it political paedophilia, but thats what it amounts too. PC should be stopped.

Gadget calls Donnelly's polemic "a proper and well balanced article, nice and scholarly". I think either we must be reading two different articles or Gadget's sense of what constitutes scholarship is woefully deficient. But I suppose you could say that if this is an example of contemporary scholarship, then perversely, Donnelly demonstrates his point - academic standards aren't what they used to be.

Look again at the text Gadget. What evidence did Donnelly adduce? Were his claims backed up by research? Did he contemplate contrary positions? Was his argument coherent, lucid and logical? Of course not. As usual, Donnelly merely asserted, spreading sweeping claims like manure on a vegetable patch. If I were marking this as an undergraduate essay, I couldn't give it any more than three out of ten. And two of those marks would be for encouragement and staying withn the desired word limit.

"Balanced" - it wasn't. "Scholarly" - never. But then we all know how the right scatter weasel words around like hundreds and thousands on party bread.

This article is indeed an example of declining standards in public media, to be observed since about 25 - 30 years. It is interesting that the bewailed decline of academic standards is the usual pattern in all western democracies, obviously caused by the liberal reforms of the educational sector in the Seventies. However, this allocation of blame is too narrowly considered. These reforms needed plenty of money which the governments were not inclined to spend, and so the new curricula were liberalised and modernized in their contents but not in the methods and too little in the didactics, hence remaining unable to reach their idealistic aims. It was piecemeal reforming and we can see its result today. How it works is shown by the modern schools in the Scandinavian countries, where the accountable politicians have understood that a major investment in the youth is worthwhile for the future of their countries.

Still there is the question of Moral. Goodness, this is reminding of the truism that already the ancient Greeks complained verifiably about the ethical decline of the youth, and so did every elder generation in history. Nevertheless, this modern youth too, will in their vast majority know to distinguish what is right and wrong finding their appropriate way of living in a world of way more challenges than ever, challenges that the "better educated" old ones have left for them! But this is another topic.

Hi Petal,

In relation to evidence about the Australian Education Union promoting a PC approach to curriculum - have a look at pages 43-45, 131-133 and 154-155 of 'Why Our Schools are Failing'. The book can be downloaded from the Menzies Centre's webpage.

Also, look out for my next book, 'Dumbed Down', published by Hardie Grant books and in shops late January 2007 - chapter 3.2 details the way the AEU has adopted a cultural-left stance on issues.

Kevin

Since when has referencing yourself as the only authoritative source become academic rigour?

Strikes me as more subjective and a bit postmodernish. A bit relativist.

Sir Vivor,
Why I have lived with a number of teachers is possibly a good question.

I have also been on now 2 P&C associations, and I have been involved in a number of industries outside of education, and at the end of all that, I don’t believe state or federal governments should be wasting too much time listening to teachers or their unions.

Governments have given teachers many of the things they have asked for, but over 30 years student marks have either stayed the same or gone backwards, and it is particularly noticeable in the area of boy’s education. The statistics clearly show this, and many teachers are lucky to be employed in teaching, and not employed in some other industry where continuous improvement is required as a basic part of the job.

Teachers are not improving their teaching methods, so now people outside of the education system need to become more involved in the education system. This is what my present P&C is beginning to realise, after much capital works money has been spent over many years, for no improvement in student marks, and an increasing rate of boys dropping out of the school.

Chaplains can be some of those people that come into the education system from outside, and if teachers don’t like it, then teachers can improve their teaching methods, which they have not done over a 30 year period.

In the mean time, parents should definitely shop around and ask many questions before they enrol their sons or daughters in any school.

'But then we all know how the right scatter weasel words around like hundreds and thousands on party bread.' says Frankgol.

Well thats a very academic statement youve made there sir. Should i use it in my worldly discussion with the general public. Tell me, did you invent it, or did you plagiarise it form some rabid, anti-political Leftoid.

If you are in fact some kind of academic, i know for a fact that you would have plagiarised it. I bet you will plagiarise my 'political paedophile' term too.

Now i also bet you think, as an academic, you are the epitome of epistomology. And that you have your hand on the moral compass. But sir, with one eye, tell us which way is it aimed?

Gadget, after reading your latest post in response to mine, I think I now understand the standards for what you had in mind when you called Donnelly’s article “a proper and well balanced article, nice and scholarly”. You have been paying attention in Mr Donnelly's classes!

Criterion 1: ignore any oppositional arguments; the substance of their ideas isn't important;
Criterion 2: abuse the opposition with personal insults;
Criterion 3: accuse the opposition of being an academic;
Criterion 5: do this in illogical stages:
- (a) make a guess that the person is an academic
- (b) assert that if the person is an academic he/she must have plagiarised their ideas from ‘some rabid, anti-political Leftoid’
- (c) finally, assert he/she is an academic and, hey presto, absolve yourself from the need for any rebuttal of the ideas put forward.

Just for the record, Gadget, I am not an academic; but if I were, it would be an honour.

And if I were an academic, where in your contribution do you think I would look for what you call ‘balance’ and ‘scholarship’?

Dear HRM,
A quick Google search found the following PR, pertinent to our Australian schooling of boys:
http://www.successforboys.edu.au/boys/
Julie Bishop writes:
“I am pleased to introduce the Australian Government’s $19.4 million Success for Boys initiative.”

”The Australian Government has taken a leadership role in raising boys’ achievement, and we have shown our commitment to improving boys’ educational and social outcomes by allocating around $27 million over 2003-2008.

”We know that many boys enjoy school and are successful in their studies. However, it is also clear that many others are underachieving against a range of key educational areas and broader social indicators. We know that boys are underperforming in literacy, are less engaged with school, and in some schools boys account for eight out of every ten suspensions and exclusions.”

”Through this initiative the Australian Government is seeking to address areas of concern that impact on boys.”

”The successful Boys’ Education Lighthouse Schools programme, which has been operating over 2003-2005, has supported over 550 schools nationally to develop effective teaching practices and strategies that work with boys.”
(snip)
”In the first round of Success for Boys funding, successful schools received grants of around $10,000 to implement professional learning modules in 2006 to help them meet boys’ learning needs”.

The Hon Julie Bishop MP
Minister for Education, Science and Training

And the program report for the year 2003 is available at:

http://www.dest.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/856C589F-F8AD-4481-BADA-9D7B63CB8BEE/2657/meeting_the_challenge.pdf

I looked through the outcomes, which were interesting and encouraging, although anecdotal. Have a look for yourself - there may be something your school P&C can use, can possibly adapt to the requirements of the $90 millions -(three-and-a-third times $27m)- available as chaplaincy grants.

I would not rule out the involvement of any stakeholders in your school P&C - Many teachers are parents, too.

Sir Vivor
I have previously seen the data and the federal government grants that you refer to. The surprising (or perhaps not so surprising) thing is that many P&C associations were not even informed by their schools that federal government grant money was being made available.

As well as that, many P&C associations are presently not getting sufficient information from their schools to enable them to develop effective student performance monitoring systems, so any time or money being spent by P&C associations could very well be time or money that is being misspent or wasted.

What the P&C associations have to do is establish effective monitoring systems to identify students at risk. I believe many teachers in many schools are not doing this very well at all, so it is left to P&C associations to do it for them.

Chaplains can be potentially useful to P&C associations to help identify students at risk, and if there are students at risk in a school, then the P&C associations have to establish projects to reduce the number of students at risk in their school.

The teachers in many schools have had 30 years to do this, but have failed to do it, or failed to do it properly.

Dear HRS,

I am satisfied that chaplains in schools will wield a positive influence, in most instances. My reservations have to do with the extent of their influence.

I would prefer to see $90 million available for boys literacy and retention projects, and $27 million for chaplaincy projects, over the same period; but perhaps a pair of granting programs with equal funding rates of $45 million per year would put them at the same starting gate.

After prior careful selection of the programs and subsequent careful evaluation of the outcomes, we might be in a position to compare their relative results and adjust the fundings accordingly.

Perhaps you can put that case to your Federal MP, if it interests you.

Kevin Donnelly attacks the Left for faults in education that were introduced by the Right. He tends to point out that certain features appeared while we had a federal Labor Government but neglects to mention that the various state governments - even the Liberal ones - were in fact responsible for education.

It was the Victorian Liberal Government which made history and geography disappear in favour of the mess of Studies of Society and the Environment. It was the current Labor Government which dumped SOSE and restored history and geography as traditional disciplines within the humanities. It was the Victorian Liberal Government which introduced the jargon of 'beginning', 'consolidating' and 'established' on reports. It was the current Labor Government which replaced them with a reporting system which tells parents the year level at which their children are achieving even when it is not they one they are in. It was the Victorian Liberal Government which officially introduced outcomes-based education as a cover story for cutting the inputs that had underpinned Victoria's long-term educational success; i.e., reasonably decent staffing of schools which allowed smaller classes and manageable teaching loads. It was the current Labor Government which restored teacher numbers in primary schools and which, we can only hope, will eventually get around to restoring them in secondary schools.

The picture of postmodernist 'anything goes' that Dr Donnelly keeps on painting in issue after issue of The Australian is not an accurate description of any school I have taught in or heard of. My experience is that schools do attempt to teach a sense of right and wrong to students. They do teach values. They do teach facts. The do teach traditional subjects. They do teach children that they can fail. They do teach traditional literature. I have taught works such as Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, Great Expectations, Hard Times (which has been reborn in e-comic fashionalist Australia), Animal Farm, To Kill a Mockingbird, Nineteen eighty-four and Medea.

The constant exaggeration of the difficulties in the government school system simply crowds out any discussion of the real problems it has.

Sir Vivor,
I would think most people should become very interested in the education of our young people. Australia cannot afford to have many young people failing out of the education system. Australia now faces considerable competition from nearby countries with very large population, but those countries are rapidly educating and skilling those populations, and Australia will have to compete with those countries for trade and industry.

The Federal government has already given many millions of dollars towards improving the teaching methods being used by teachers, but whether the teachers will actually use those methods is a different matter. So there also needs to be people on the inside who act as a catalyst to ensure the teachers are actually carrying out quality teaching, and chaplains may be one of those people.

Recently a relative got 15 out of 25 for a science test in grade 9, and received a B+.

Most of the students in that grade failed, but each class size is not much more than 20 students. The teachers have plenty of teacher aids that have been purchased by the P&C association, and the teachers have numerous student free days throughout the year.

But with marks like that I cannot believe quality teaching was being carried out.

HRS

Two quick points about your last post.

1. Your suggestion that chaplains may "act as a catalyst to ensure the teachers are actually carrying out quality teaching" is a bizarre variation on an already ill-advised government decision to pump funds into religion in schools. What pedagogical expertise will these chaplains have? Who will they report to? Will teachers, in turn, be able to ensure that chaplains carry out quality chaplaincy? Or will we call in the lollypop men and women?

2. Re your anecdote about a science test. Let me tell you my anecdote: Recently my son got 94 out of 100 for his science exam and received an A-. When he asked why not an A or A+, the teacher said most of the class of 26 (in a state school) got between 87 and 98. So which of our personal anecdotes will we use to assess the quality of teaching in our schools? Or would it be better to avoid altogether assessing the state of teaching across the nation based on personal anecdotes?

That was real outrage not 'mock outrage' because it is outrageous to infer that Traditional Religion is right for everyone. (Applying trad religion in the process of teaching right from wrong, implies that trad religion is right.) No place for agnostics, scientologists, geometric paradiddles or atheists there.

Also I would like to challenge the assumption that if education is poor than education is to blame. One of the prime symptoms of family distress is poor school work - with half the marriages in this society going up on the rocks maybe a lot of the educational dysfunction is much more related to what is going on at home. The larger representation of boys over girls could also be due to something like the demonization and derision of men in this post-feminist culture.

In addition, with respect to things like grammar and spelling, when I was young we were surrounded with correct spellings and grammar - even signwriters could spell. Nowadays, in an attempt to attract attention, words are often deliberately spelt incorrectly or grammar is scrambled. These practices provide 'bad examples' to young people who, it must be remembered learn now very much as we did when I was young, that is by imitation.

Frank Gol
My relative was in a QLD state school as well, and your anecdote and mine highlight the completely arbitrary nature of so much of the education system. When something is so arbitrary, there is the very great likelihood that there are significant inefficiencies occurring in that system, and I think that the author has highlighted this often enough in his various articles on education systems.

It is also a myth that teaching methods have improved over 30 years. I have given links to data relating to this earlier.

After being on a P&C association in a medium and a very large school, and after talking to many other P&C association members, it leads me to believe that their biggest problems result from not getting sufficient information about what is going on inside their schools. Quite often a Principal will only tell them what the Principal wants them to hear, and often a P&C association can only rely on what the Principal tells them.

But a P&C association can make use of a Chaplain to find out more about what is occurring with the students inside the school, particularly if there are students at risk inside the school. That’s presupposing that the Chaplain system works well enough.

A P&C can also train a Chaplain to give them information about what they want to know. For example:- They could ask a Chaplain to provide a monthly or semester report on the school, and then compare that to what the Principal has told them.

Potentially the Chaplain can provide better information about what is occurring, and a P&C association can make good use of that information. That’s how the Chaplain can become a catalyst for improvements to occur inside a school.

If you have an interest in education, I could only encourage you to join a P&C association. It can be a real eye opener.

Let's see if I've got this right, HRS.

Your first point: If the schooling system were less arbitary, results would be more even across the nation. Your mediocre Queensland school would get better results and my excellent Victorian school would become more mediocre. There's efficiency for you.

Your second point: School principals can't be trusted to tell parents what's really going on in their schools, so we should employ chaplains to provide better alternative reports for parents. When we get that right, I reckon we could redeploy the Principals as church wardens. Think of the salary savings. After that, I could see school chaplains providing alternative daily news in the mass media - and if they make a decent fist of that, I reckon we could then make a move on Parliamentary inefficiencies and untruths, eh.

HRS, you're a gem!

Since when were P&C associations alternative governance structures for schools? My experience of them is that they can contribute significantly to outcomes for children through their own voluntary deeds or were disruptive forum of control freaks who made the lives of teachers and principals hellish.

Kevin is the most rigidly idological writer on education that I have encountered.He is a senior member of the liberal party and his output has positioned him well on the right-wing 'gravy train'. I believe he is also the recipient of 'no bid' government contracts. His writings, while purporting to be academic in nature, are in fact,a thinly disguised glorification of the Howard Government and not so thinly disguised attacks on teacher's and their Unions.

HRS

re:
" ... after talking to many other P&C association members, it leads me to believe that their biggest problems result from not getting sufficient information about what is going on inside their schools. Quite often a Principal will only tell them what the Principal wants them to hear, ... "

"But a P&C association can make use of a Chaplain to find out more about what is occurring with the students inside the school, particularly if there are students at risk inside the school. That’s presupposing that the Chaplain system works well enough."

"A P&C can also train a Chaplain to give them information about what they want to know. For example:- They could ask a Chaplain to provide a monthly or semester report on the school, and then compare that to what the Principal has told them."

"Potentially the Chaplain can provide better information about what is occurring, and a P&C association can make good use of that information. That’s how the Chaplain can become a catalyst for improvements to occur inside a school."

reminds me of a post I put on another forum:

"Scientific American Editor John Rennie's remark about "The Skeptical Environmentalist" comes to mind: " … I am … reminded of H. L. Mencken's remark, "For every problem, there is a neat, simple solution, and it is always wrong." " "

I hope all will pardon me "quoting myself", but I have been driven to extremes, here, and after all, I'm only quoting myself quoting someone else quoting yet someone else again.

HRS, I would take your idea to your local pastor if I were you. Do you really think that the odd person of God is going to do your bidding and betray the confidence of the other educators he or she is working with? You need to discuss this one with a real person who is on your side.

Failing that, I suggest you volunteer for the school tuck shop. That's where the good goss goes down - but don't forget to make yourself useful.

Frank Gol,
The school that gave a grade 9 student a B+ for 15 out of 25 in science, also gets above state average OP scores for its grade 12 OP students. That is another example of how arbitrary and unpredictable the whole education system has become.

Normally school teachers and Principals will try and paint a rosy picture of their school no matter what the situation, so to find out what is really happening in that school, someone has to ask questions and gather extra information. Chaplains can be a source of extra information, and many chaplains are trained in areas such as social work, and don’t just read the bible.

There are other sources of information also, and some P&C’s in high schools now use survey forms to find out what the students actually think of the school. I personally believe such surveys carried out by P&C associations (and not the state or federal government) should be undertaken in all high schools, and those surveys would also act as a catalyst to bring about improvements in schools.

Rainer,
I have a question.

If you have a student that fails, would you consider it your problem or the student’s problem?

If you do give an answer, I will tell you about a company manager I once had.

Sir Vivor.
There is nothing wrong with a Chaplain going to a P&C meeting and giving a report. Many people give reports at P&C meetings.

A Chaplain could also become a P&C member. My P&C has 2 teachers plus the Principal on it, so why not a Chaplain.

Tuckshop workers and P&C members should be expecting an improvement in student performance each and every year for their time and sometimes their money spent. But over 30 years there has been no improvement in student marks nationally, and boys in particular can be badly affected by poor teaching practices, so changes have to take place in the education system, or in 30 years time there will still be no improvement.

HRS,

There are number of factors one would have to weigh up.

Depending on what you assume I'm teaching this hypothetical student here are some factors I would have to take into consideration before I could apply your fatalistic outcome.

• Does the student have learning difficulties? (Dyslexia, other motor/speech skill problems)

• Have I not been supportive of the student's well being and self esteem in learning?

• Has his or her home life had some impact on them doing class and home work?

• Are they having difficulties socialising in the school/classroom?

• Is English a second or third language?

• Have I been clear in terms of setting out assessment he or she understands?

• What was the literacy or numeracy level of this student when they came to my classroom?

• Does the student like me enough to learn from me?

While my 6 or so hours contact with this student a week might not be able to fix some of the above, I would try my best.

Somewhere in the school year I would definitely hope meet with this students parents and try to get some idea about what their expectations and knowledge of their child is.

I realise many parents see schools as a means to substitute NOT supplement a good home life so its difficult for me to say if I’d blame the student or myself.

Having said this I would never blame the student for having lousy parents. They didn’t choose them.

Does this answer your question?

Rainer,
I’ll tell you about the manager I had when I was a shift supervisor in a factory.

On the first day he began, he called all supervisors to the boardroom and said that he expected an overall improvement in factory performance of at least 14% each year. This figure he had calculated from such things as current interest rates and inflation. He also told us that if anything went wrong in the factory, he would immediately contact the area supervisor. And he did.

If an employee was absent without a doctor’s certificate, he would contact the supervisor and ask them why the employee had been absent, and then ask what the supervisor would be doing to ensure that worker would not be absent without a doctor’s certificate in the future.

If an employee was injured, he would contact the supervisor and ask them why the employee had been injured, and then ask the supervisor what they would be doing to ensure that worker did not get injured again in the future.

If he saw a valve leaking product he would contact the supervisor and ask why the valve was leaking, and then ask what they would be doing to ensure that valve would not leak product again in the future.

And so on.

He never once told any supervisor how to do their job, and all he did was ask two sets of questions. But within months that factory had started to improve its factory performance figures.

Now if that manager was running a school and one of the students failed an exam, I am certain he would contact the student’s teacher, and ask why the student had failed, and then ask what they would be doing to ensure that student did not fail again in the future.

Personally I have heard this thing from teachers many times about how parents are too blame for this and that, but the parents are not in the classroom when the teacher is teaching. So the teacher is now directly in control of the student and not their parents.

HRS,

What did you think of my response to your question?

While I appreciate your little story, teaching and learning isn't an industrial 'quick fix' solution waiting to happen. Do you really think students are just little robots waiting to be reprogrammed? C’mon, you’re much more sophisticated in your thinking than this surely?

Teaching and learning is not a didactic process of implanting knowledge and skills (banking education) then testing this banking - you need to really give some serious reconsideration to this very simplistic understanding of the teaching and learning process.

Imagine if you can 30 students, all of varying degrees of ability, different personalities, religions, ethnic backgrounds. And your task is to teach them all.

Where would you start? Do you really believe teachers use a ‘teaching manual’ the same way mechanics fix cars? Puleeze!

I could go on forever about how inappropriate it is to compare a factory to teaching young human beings but instead I'm hoping you won't need that much convincing and just take my word for it.

Cheers mate.

Hi,

Some comments in response to Chris about the history of OBE.

OBE was introduced by the Keating federal government, represented by the national statements and profiles. As outlined in my next book, OBE can also be explained by the influence of William Spady and the cultural-left's domination of education.

At the Perth (1995?) meeting of Australian education ministers, a decision was made not to endorse the national curriculum and, instead, refer it back to the states - the push against the national curriculum was led by Don hayward (Liberal, Victoria) and the vote split along party lines.

The original Victorian CSF, while addopting aspects of OBE, also embraced a standards approach - the Victorian curriculum was no where near as extreme as WA, NT, Queensland, Tasmania and SA.

I agree, not all can be explained using a left/right distinction - Premier Carr (ALP) made sure that NSW retained a more traditional syllabus approach and Geoff Spring (employed by Liberal governments in Victoria and South Australia) was responsible for some weird and wacky new-age curriculum (in part, explained by Spring's involvment with the CDC).

If you read what I have argued over the last 10 years or so, you will appreciate that I rarely, if ever, attack teachers or individual schools - my beef is with the educrats and the curriculum writers and education academics. All of whom are responsible for making the work of teachers so much more frustrating and difficult. Obviously, there are some schools that have a traditional approach and not every clasroom is a hot bed of postmodern relativism.

But, look at the syllabuses, professional associations and teacher training, and it is obvious that the left has been successful in its long march.

Notice how Kevin Donnelly cherry-picks the issues he responds to and the partial concessions he makes when confronted with unassailable facts contrary to his general position. He concedes to Chris somewhat uncomfortably that so-called "outcomes based education" and all the bad things that accompany it is not the creature of Labor governments alone, and that some Liberals pushed it harder than some Labor states. But his central (still unsubstantiated) thesis remains - "outcomes based education" came about because of "the cultural-left's domination of education" exercised through that all-conquering triumviate, "the educrats and the curriculum writers and education academics" What tosh!

And what does Donnelly ignore? Chris said: "The picture of postmodernist 'anything goes' that Dr Donnelly keeps on painting in issue after issue of The Australian is not an accurate description of any school I have taught in or heard of." Donnelly's response? Silence.

Chris said: "The constant exaggeration of the difficulties in the government school system simply crowds out any discussion of the real problems it has." Donnelly's response? Silence.

Donnelly concedes that "Obviously, there are some schools that have a traditional approach and not every clasroom is a hot bed of postmodern relativism." But why does he not explain why these schools have held out against the all-powerful villains when, as he claims, "it is obvious that the left has been successful in its long march"?

The long march and the triumph of the left remain a figment of Donelly's overwrought imagination - and bears little relationship to actual life in most classrooms. But he knows that good news about education doesn't excite headlines or sell books.

Rainer,
The manager mentioned previously was headhunted into that company and paid a lot of money. He was a very experienced manager, and he also was a teacher. His first job was to teach the supervisors in that company to solve problems instead of ignoring those problems and allowing them to occur again, and to aim for continuous improvement.

I think the education system should be looking very closely at what certain industries do.

Industry has to be dynamic and innovative otherwise it does not exist for very long. Industry has to be continuously looking for ways to improve, and industry cannot be continuously making excuses, but has to solve problems.

If an employee has a bad accident, the supervisor of that employee can be charged, the manager of the company can be charged, and the board of directors can be charged. So industry has to be continuously motivating its workforce so that failures do not happen. Industry is also continuously training and retraining its workforce, and frequently meetings will become brainstorming sessions to solve problems and advance the company. Industry has to be made up of problem solvers and doers, rather than excuse makers.

I compare my experiences in a number of industries with what I have seen in education, and what I see is an education system that is incestuous and stagnant, lacking in innovation, has minimal concern for continuous improvement, makes too many excuses instead of solving problems, is filling up with gender prejudiced feminists, tries to hide information from the public, cannot motivate the students, has minimal regard for the parents of the students, while at the same time it lives mostly off the taxpayer.

That is why I see the necessity for people outside the education system to be brought into the education system. The chaplains can be a start in that area, but other people should follow as well, and bringing in outside people will be the only way for the education system to advance instead of staying in the same spot for 30 years.

Frankgol, good post there. bravo!

Kev,(Gee you must hate Rudd) I gotta admire your enterprise for milking the Tory's to pump up your retirement funds.

Kevin,

Thank you for your response. I accept that you do not attack teachers or individual schools, but the conclusions you draw from the documents you read are highly critical of the government school system but not supported by the experiences of classroom teachers. Only the naïve and the ambitious follow government documents.

You maintain that the Keating Government introduced OBE. It did not have the power to do so. It could only advise on education. In a complete reversal of long-time political positions the Liberals are now centralists and Labor is federalist.

The inservice which introduced me to OBE was in 1994. Below is an extract from a report I wrote then: 'According to the DSE et al, the new focus in education is on "outcomes", not "inputs" or "free-floating process statements" - on learning not teaching: the DSE is therefore moving from "course advice" to "curriculum support material", and the era of re-inventing the wheel in schools is over.
'The CSF (Curriculum Standards Framework) - all 300 to 400 pages of it - will cause schools to focus on content, the how of learning and the demonstration of learning having taken place.' (MEN IN SUITS, 20/6/1994) The claim that OBE would focus on content rather than process is the reverse of the claim made about it today.

The focus on 'outcomes' was part of a political campaign to justify the cuts to teacher numbers in Victoria by getting the public to forget about 'inputs'. It was accompanied by a particularly nasty series of attacks on teachers as a pampered elite. It was not a trendy left idea, but a hard right one.

As far as I can tell, the test of OBE is the specific outcomes set. They can be clear and worthwhile or they can be vague and ridiculous.

Schools and teachers do have a moral compass. They uphold standards of right and wrong, of what is true and what is false, of honesty, of decency, of dedication to their noble calling. Very few classrooms would be 'hotbed[s] of postmodern relativism'.

Chris C,

I'd review you're view that Old Kev does not get stuck into teachers-he makes broad allegations about them in his book - for example:

he declares;

“Teachers who have been taught in tertiary faculties steeped in political correctness have had, and are having, a significant impact on schools”.

And;

“In the hands of left-wing teachers, such objectives provide ammunition to present boys and men as misogynist and to indoctrinate girls with the latest feminist tract about gender inequality”

But here is by far the biggest porky of them all -

“Across Australian schools, in areas like multiculturalism, the environment and peace studies, students are indoctrinated and teachers define their role as new-age, class warriors.”

Chris B,
Most of the material being taught in primary and secondary schools is not new by any means.

Most maths is hundreds of years old. Newton’s 3 laws of motion were developed in the 1690’s, and maths was so advanced at that time that Newton was also able to develop a mathematical formula for gravitational attraction.

Earlier you said that you have taught a number of English books, but out of that list I remember being taught in the 1970’s Macbeth, Animal Farm, To Kill a Mockingbird and Nineteen eighty-four.

The subject material has hardly changed in decades. So why haven’t the student marks improved in now 3 decades when teachers have had so much time to develop their teaching methods, and teachers have so much honesty, decency, and dedication to their noble calling.

Please do not blame the parents. Most co-ed schools have students that come from the same socio-economic background, and the sons and daughters in that school come from the same families, but there is normally a significant difference between the girl’s and boy’s marks.

Rainier,

I don't regard the first two quotes as attacks on teachers. Going through a PC faculty doesn't mean the resulting teacher is PC. To call someone left-wing is to put them in the same category as the majority of Australians who consistently vote for Labor Governments at the state and territory level. No big!

The third quote is different because it does accuse teachers across the nation of indoctrinating students. (However, I am happy to be a class warrior, fighting in class for the values that made Australia great.) Even so, Kevin Donnelly's criticisms are nowhere near as nasty and vicious as others I have read.

HRS,

If you ignore your doctor's advice and get sick, it is not the doctor's fault. If you ignore your mechanic's advice and your car breaks down, it is not the mechanic's fault. If a boy ignores his teacher's advice, does not pay attention, does not do the work set, does not do the homework, has a parent who does not support the school and achieves little, it is not the teacher's fault. Students are not inanimate objects. They have wills of their own, and they do not actually understand at a very fundamental level what school is or what it is for.

Schools will get better results when the authority of the teacher to teach is returned and when the staffing is returned to what is was; e.g., the Victorian secondary pupil-teacher-ratio was 10.9:1 in 1981, compared with 12.0:1 now.

Teaching methods have developed, but at the same time some schools have gone backwards to the 1970s open classroom teacher-as-facilitator enquiry-based project-based subjects-don't-matter playway to learning. I stress 'some'. Others are simply disordered chaotic places. All of them are expected to extend their responsibilities to deal with sex, drugs, alcohol, obesity, bullying, financial “literacy”, etc.

Parental interest in their children has declined dramatically. In my early years of teaching, in a poor Housing Commission area, some 90 per cent of parents would attend parent-teacher interviews. Today, in a better-off area, the figure is more like 30 percent.

Chris C,

As a teacher I find Donnelly's accusations totally offensive. I guess its different for people who have never taught and are looking in from the outside.

that siad, Other than sucking up to Donnelly online I really don't know what your intellectual or theoretical objectives are.

Hi Rainier,

I taught in secondary schools for 18 years.

Kevin

Kevin, you taught what? where? when? with what results?
When was the last time you taught in a school? and in a government school?
Give us the full story of your credential for your attacks on teachers.

Kevin, you say you taught in secondary schools for 18 years. What subjects did you teach? In what schools? When? With what results?

When was the last time you taught in a school? and in a government school?
Give us the full story of your credential for your attacks on teachers.

ChrisC,
Searching through the Australian Council for Educational Research web-site I cannot find any reference that parents are to blame for a decline in students marks, but there are many studies that do highlight teaching methods as being the most important factor in the performance of the students.

It is difficult to understand how parents make their daughters do their homework but not the sons. Another teacher who calls people “whores” (a high level of morals and a good role model for the students) has also tried to blame parents, so it could be that a mindset has developed amongst some teachers that parents are too blame. This may be true, but it could also be an excuse.

But even if parents were to blame, then what are teachers doing about it. Teachers believe they have a problem, which is the parents. So what are teachers going to do to solve that problem with the parents?

Also do not believe that teachers in schools are the only people who teach or train others. I would think that the teaching and training that occurs in industry is possibly the same if not more than what occurs in schools.

Many supervisors are also qualified trainers and they have to supervise many different people carrying out many different tasks. At present a teacher is not charged if a student fails, but a supervisor can be charged if one of their crew fails and has an accident. That’s a big difference, so do not underestimate the teaching and training that occurs outside of the education system.

It would be interesting to know what teachers intend to do about parents, but at present I do not believe that the education system will positively change from within, but can only positively change by people outside the education system coming into that system. Chaplains can be one of those people.

Kev, and I'm still teaching.

Rainer,

It is known that you are still teaching. It is also known that student marks have not improved in 30 years. Do you see any relationship?

Chric C,
No reply on what teachers intend to do to parents. I’m a parent, but I know how many companies would tackle (and also solve) the problem of student homework.

They would probably make a video of a student correctly doing their homework, and then show that video to new students on induction day. They may even have a little group discussion after the video, or maybe have the students do a small test or exam on effective study methods after watching the video. All that is done on induction day.

Then if a student is not doing their homework properly, or not carrying out effective study methods, they would simply put the student through the induction process again, and make the student watch the homework video again. Very few people want to watch induction videos over and over, so this system is basically guaranteed to work.

The same system can be used with many other types of behaviour modification. I was employed in a company that had a lot of apprentices. The apprentices were often getting on the booze at night and then turning up to work still half drunk the next day. So if a supervisor thought that an apprentice was badly hung-over or still half drunk, they would simply send the apprentice to the safety officer who would put the apprentice in a room by themselves and make them watch induction videos for the rest of the day. Very little was verbally said to the apprentice, but this system was found to be the most effective deterrent to stop apprentices from getting on the booze and turning up to work half-drunk

Dear Mr Donnelly

You may not be aware of a newly posted item of interest:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1214/p08s02-comv.htm
"How to Keep America's Education Edge"

It notes that:
"The 26-member bipartisan panel, called the New Commission on the Skills of the American Workforce, lays out a bold restructuring of the K-12 system - which was designed more than a century ago. As Congress prepares to reauthorize the 2001 No Child Left Behind law that requires standardized testing - a modest reform with limited success - ... . Some governors, too, will find these ideas to be a way to boost flagging state economies."

and
"Current state tests, the panel finds, are inadequate for "workers of 21st century America." A new type of state tests, called "state board qualifying exams," would measure more than knowledge, such as mastery of a core curriculum, innovation, self- discipline, and teamwork. If passed, students would be able to enter various levels of state higher education."

and
"Such ideas aren't for the faint of heart. And they may end up not working in early experiments. But together, they point a way out of America's educational decline."

Flesh for a killer-ap policy position!

And as a seasoned Op-Ed writer, your foot's already in the door for another advertorial piece; but "reds under the beds" is a bit dated, even for the USA audiences - you might try "leftists under the futons" - - or maybe some epithet that rhymes with "Doonas - - -

Merry Christmas to All

It is known that you are still teaching. It is also known that student marks have not improved in 30 years. Do you see any relationship?

Yes I do, but its not the one that goes "its the fault of teachers"
This blame game might feel good for those too lazy to do further investigations - but its not the answer, just one symptom.

Do I believe the quality of teachers is not as good as 30 years ago?
Yes and no, but again for totally different reasons than many here would agree with.

I think this is much too convenient and lazy in terms of understanding the social and economic impacts on school systems and teacher education during this period.

The total lack of fiscal and intellectual investment in schools and education during this period cannot be laid of the feet of teaches alone.

I for one do not believe the best performing students necessarily should be recruited to go into the teaching professsion.
Academic performance is important, but this does not in itself generate better teachers.

I do not believe student marks have not improved. I'm not defending bad teaching in saying this but I think you have to take into account changes in eduation over this period.

For instance - I doubt Kevin Rudd [who was dux in his high school over thirty years ago] could handle what a secondary school curriculum now requires of 15-17 year olds.

These advances are partly due to technological advances but its also because of the higher expectations that now exist in terms of 'what schools should deliver".

Some argue that schools should simply focus on academic excellence, others feel (such as me) that it needs to be balanced with socialising and preparing students with good life skills.

The rush to the private system by many bellies the fact that public schools have been underfunded.

So in reality we now have two publically tax payer funded school systems - one for the rich and one for the poor. why have standardsbeen held ransom by economic rationalism?

How stupid is this?

Rainier,
Money does not really matter that much. Lots of money can actually make people fat, lazy and non-innovative.

The manager I told you about previously only asked 2 questions which cost no money at all, but he brought about a complete turnaround of a company that had been stagnant for many years.

Having induction days for new students and showing a video to those students of the correct or recommended study methods would cost very little money. Showing that video again to students who were not carrying out correct or effective study methods would also cost very little money.

The idea that schools are adequately preparing students for later life is rather doubtful also. In the company with the apprentices that I mentioned earlier, it had a 2 day induction process for normal new employees, and a 5 day induction process for apprentices.

The apprentices were coming straight out of high school, and the company had to build up their motivation and also build up their confidence. The male apprentices in particular had the motivation and confidence kicked out of them by the feminists at the high schools, so there were 3 extra days of induction required for those apprentices to gradually build up their motivation and confidence before they could actually go into a workshop and begin tasks. If they went into a workshop and started using equipment without enough motivation and confidence then they were a risk to themselves and a risk to other people.

Those boys had been de-motivated by the school system, and the low marks and disengagement from the education system by so many boys throughout the country is also a good indication of wide-spread de-motivation of boys on a national scale.

So for boys in particular, it is doubtful that schools are adequately preparing them for later life.

Maybe having chaplains in the schools may help to balance out the de-motivation of the students by so many teachers

"Having induction days for new students and showing a video to those students of the correct or recommended study methods would cost very little money. Showing that video again to students who were not carrying out correct or effective study methods would also cost very little money."

And still more money might be saved by having the Chaplain run the video room, provide pastoral care for the lost sheep, write reports on their progress & and the school's, & so on - - -

I'd grant $4.5 million on the Chaplaincy, $85.5 million on boys' literacy and retention, and then, with equally-greased starting gates and a fair camera at the finish, we could see which of the two horses wins by a nose - - -

HRS, I don't think I'm going to move you towards thinking about schools and teaching and learning and you're not going to move me into the world of work in a factory.

Showing an induction video? Please!

I wish it was all as simple as you think it is - i really do - but its not

HRS,

There are many factors in student learning. Parent attitudes play a big role in students' attitudes to learning. Good teaching is another factor. But students are not products. They have will, and they will decide whether or not they will co-operate. In industry, trainers are dealing with adults who want to be learning or who have made a decision that it is necessary to learn. That is different from children, who do not have the choice of whether to be at school or not.

Forcing students to watch a video of another student doing homework would be impractical and ineffective. It is a lack of motivation which prevents students doing homework, not a lack of knowledge of how to do it.

Teachers are not responsible for parents.

The idea of charging teachers if students fail is a new one. That would clear everybody out of teaching. Teachers have responsibility but they do not have power.

There is nothing new about chaplains in schools. They have been in Victorian schools for over 50 years, and they do not undertake the roles that you suggest for them.

If society wants to improve learning, it would increase education spending. There are private schools which charge around $20,000 in fees. My government school gets just over $7,000 per student. Just imagine what programs we could run, how much individual attention we could give and what highly able people would we attract to teaching with another $13,000!

Society would also re-structure schools on a vertical modular grouping basis so that students would not progress to a higher level in any subject until they had mastered the previous level.

The point of my first post was to show that the picture of PC schools with no commitment to standards is false, and I stand by that. This thread is the first time I have seen Kevin Donnelly make any concessions on the claims he has made on education over the past 15 years.

Sir Vivor,
Left to their own devices, here is an example of what the education system does with money.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Censored-the-boys-own-manual/2005/05/02/1114886318639.html

Rainier,
I’m sure few companies would employ you. You seem to have elitist attitudes which would not make you a good team player, and you have minimal regard for inductions. Companies are basically required to carry out inductions under risk management legislation, so few companies would employ you.

Chris C,
Properly run inductions make a supervisors job much easier, and properly run inductions in schools would make a teachers job much easier also.

Induction systems can be used to motivate, and induction system can also be used as a part of counselling. Verbal counselling is not often effective. How many times have you carried out verbal counselling of a student but the student has not paid any attention? If someone needs counselling as a part of behaviour modification, then running them through the induction process again is extremely effective I can assure you.

Some schools have a policy of giving the student minimal homework, but if you are concerned about homework, then engage the students and treat it as a project. Get the students to make a video. Have students play the part of actors doing their homework in different ways. Then show the video and have a class discussion on what would be the best study method they could use. Write out what the class has agreed on, and then give a copy to each member of the class.

In 2 weeks, ask the students if they thought that the study method they had agreed on was now getting them better homework marks. If not, start the process again and update the study method.

In the good companies they do not regard their employees as “products”. A supervisor in a good company has two families. Their family at home, and their family at work. To a good supervisor, the safety of their crew is always their highest priority, but I have rarely heard a teacher even mention student safety. That indicates very poor management practices occurring in schools.

Why would you hear teachers referring to safety? It is so integral to what they do that it dosn't need to be trumpted about. Schools aim to care for their students, and saftey is part of that - playgrounds designed with sufficent softfall, classrooms designed with age-appropriate furniture, the provision of first aid training and facilities... It dosn't need to be 'spoken about', it just IS.

HRS, Teaching is teamwork built around knowledge managment and achievement.

As for induction, its much more than looking at a video.

Why the anger? You asked me my opinion about teaching? I provided it.

I'm sorry its not what you think it is.

You can't blame me for the knowledge and experience you don't have.

I worked as a Laborer for many years before going back to uni and hitting the books.

If self improvement elitist?

How many other companies (beside the one you work in) would employ you simply because you think an an induction video is all that is required to familarise workers in a factory?

You've got a pretty narrow perspective on a complex range of issues.

Laurie,
I have read many school newsletters and school reports, been to many P&C meetings, and talked to quite a few schoolteachers. On only a few occasions have I ever heard schoolteachers talk about safety, and on only a rare occasion have I ever heard a schoolteacher talk about risk.

This means that the education system does not have risk management as a priority. The education system does not properly identify risks, and the education system does not put in place enough processes to overcome risks.

The schoolteachers are now good at excuse making instead of problem solving. They have become good at blaming the parents, blaming the students, blaming the government or blaming everything or everyone but their own archaic and incestuous teaching practices. Good at asking for more of the taxpayer’s money, not so good at improving student results. Good at suggesting that they are the only ones who know how to teach, not so good at looking at the teaching and training practices that occur outside of schools, and these teaching practices are often much more advanced than what is occurring in schools.

Rainier,
The induction process can involve many things. Written material, verbal talks, group discussions, videos, demonstrations, practical exercises and some companies now give the employees a little exam at the end.

Also the induction process is normally the start of the ongoing training that occurs in a company. If you don’t like inductions, you will not get a job.

I have undertaken many courses, but the last course I did through a University, I regard it as the most expensive but also the most badly managed and most badly run course I have ever undertaken.

I did the course through correspondence, and after the first year I stopped trying to contact the lecturers. They were normally not available, and no lecturer ever tried to contact me either. So for the next 3 years I did the course with no assistance from any lecturer.

So much for the teaching practices of Universities, and it is not ironic that those Universities also train schoolteachers.

HRS, but do you have the ability to critically, abstractly, philosophically? You appear to be a bit boxed in.

"The schoolteachers are now good at excuse making instead of problem solving. They have become good at blaming the parents, blaming the students, blaming the government or blaming everything or everyone but their own archaic and incestuous teaching practices. Good at asking for more of the taxpayer’s money, not so good at improving student results. Good at suggesting that they are the only ones who know how to teach, not so good at looking at the teaching and training practices that occur outside of schools, and these teaching practices are often much more advanced than what is occurring in schools."

"The schoolteachers" - all of them?
"They have become good at ... " is this your expert, evidence-based opinion? Is your evidence of any better quality than the opinions you have posted previously above, or is it all based on a selection of personal experiences, filtered through your personal biases?

Don't get me wrong here, I have personal biases as well. I can check them out by re-reading a paragraph I have written and substituting another subject for the paragraph - eg

"The farmers are now good at excuse making instead of problem solving. They have become good at blaming the weather, blaming the banks, blaming the government or blaming everything or everyone but their own archaic and incestuous farming practices. Good at asking for more of the taxpayer’s money, not so good at improving farm productivity. Good at suggesting that they are the only ones who know how to farm, not so good at looking at the farming practices that occur in other countries, and these farming practices are often much more advanced than what is occurring in Australia."

Don't take this personally if you're a farmer - just read it for the parody that it is meant to be, then think again about what is written above, about teachers

Rainer,
So you're a teacher who thinks critically, abstractly, and philosophically. I hope you don’t think that way when you are in front of a class of students. They might think you’re on drugs. Not a good role model for the young and impressionable.

I’m outside the education box looking in, and what I see I’m not impressed with at all.

I see an education system where student marks have not improved nationally in 30 years.

I see a state education department (NSW) that printed 10,000 copies of a book on how to improve boy’s education, and then didn’t deliver the book to anyone.

I see many schoolteachers who have yet to identify that there is such a thing as risk management, when risk management has been required by legislation for many years.

I see over 10 University lecturers who never once contacted a student in 4 years, and then they called their course a correspondence course.

I have heard directly from a school teacher that they never do any class preparation any more, but just repeat the same lesson plan from previous years, (and if students fail then that is their fault), but the education system allows that teacher to do it.

In a school one of my children goes to, I regularly see a stream of teachers driving out the school gate in the afternoon earlier than what the students can get on the school bus, and the Principal of that school allows those teachers to do that also.

I see school Principals at P&C meetings, only telling the P&C members what the Principal wants them to hear, and nothing else.

This is only a very small sample of what I have seen looking into the incestuous and archaic box called the education system, but try as I might, I cannot think of it as being quality teaching, or even acceptable teaching.

I say bring on the chaplains. I don’t think they can make the system any worse.

HRS,

Ok, so you think I shouldn’t teach student how to be responsive to variable subject matter, issues, and purposes - develop scientific thinking, mathematical thinking, historical thinking, anthropological thinking, economic thinking, moral thinking, and philosophical thinking.

Wow! Do you just expect me to give them a book and tell them to shut up and read? (or watch an induction video on reading a book?)

Is this "banking" concept of education, in which students are simply seen as empty accounts to be filled by a teacher what you want?

This contradicts your earlier criticism about not being contacted by lecturers to help you “learn”.

Instead of universalising your own personal experiences and arguing this to be an accurate account of everyone and everything, show me the empirical evidence to support your claims about teachers, schooling etcetera.

And just what are your commitments to improving these so called deficits in education beyond whinging here on OLO? Or is this too abstract and philosophical for you to ponder?

Hi Ranier,

Seriously, I think you've given HRS oxygen poisoning.
I'd cut off the flow, give him the last word. He may not be as erudite as Kevin, but his brain works much the same way.

I'd say apply some applied risk management. Incidentally, there's some interesting stuff on the NSWTF website on risk management - looks like they all came out from under their futons long enough to p*ss (that's pass - they all hate families and kids)on the wedding cake, eh?

Cheers,

So much work 2b done.... One clear point. Many posters, many perspectives, but the same object of scrutiny. I'm wondering if Frank and Ranier are more influenced by:

1/ K.D. is 'Liberal' connected (therefore anything he says is by default wrong)
2/ The political atmosphere and possibly involvement/committment of Frank and Ranier ?

Just asking. But for sure, this difference in perspective UNDERLINES the need for an apolitical arbiter or determiner of 'moral' direction.
The only morality that I would expect a Chaplain to impart without being specifically asked is this:

"Do for others, as you would have them do for you".

If critically minded, clear thinking students are told this, they should ask 'WHY'?....by what authority ? And of course, little Johnny has just finished reading his 'History of Western Philosophy' -the chapter on JeanPaul Satre, and has concluded at this stage that the best approach for is life is to establish goals, and simply trample into the ground anyone who gets in the way.

But here..is the Chaplain..saying something different.....hmmmmm

You see.. apart from DIVINE authority, all humanistic sentimentality is simply that..sentimentality, with zero authority.

So, the dimwitted chaplain (as all chaplains inevitably are right ?) starts to speak of "Well, God, Creator of all that is, said it is how we should live". Johnny rejects this, and as he walks out of the chaplains office, he sees a young student who he intimidates for his lunch money for 'protection'.

HoHum... you need special attention.. see this link
http://aussiebikinimarch07.wikispaces.com/

Rainier,
Generally speaking, you can teach whatever way you want, as long as your students pass their exams (if you do believe in exams), and as long as your students are progressively getting better grades over time, and not remaining at the same level as the students from 30 years ago.

You want some type of information regards teaching, so you should know about the Australian Council for Educational Research web-site http://www.acer.edu.au/

There is a interesting list of the most common characteristics of effective teachers here
http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/school_education/policy_initiatives_reviews/key_issues/boys_education/guiding_principles_in_educating_boys.htm

You can pretend that the teaching systems being used in schools are as effective as possible, but if you want to learn about effective teaching and training practices, then research any manufacturing company that exports onto the world market, and also has at least 1 million man hours between lost injuries for its workforce. There you will likely find some real teaching and training, and not the pretend teaching and training that occurs in schools.

Also if you are a male teacher, then realise that you are a dying breed if things do not change, and change quite rapidly. You can contact the Central QLD University and ask for the booklet on their courses in the Creative and Performing Arts, Education, Humanities and Social Science. You can count the number of pictures of students and the testimonials from past students in that booklet. I count 11 photos of students, and 6 testimonials from past students. All photos are of female students, and all testimonials are from female students. They don't want male students to enroll. The trend has now started to remove males from Universities. So you have no future if you want to agree with, or accept feminist type education systems.

• Boazy,

That KD is a disciple of Howard is not immediate problem for me. Mind you, dinosaurs like KD are fun to play with.

That he is attempting to create a crisis out of nothing and to demonise underpaid and hardworking teachers is.

As for the political atmosphere, we it hasn't really changed that much for me and mine over the last 218 years so it’s really business as usual. Another day - another Tory to exasperate. Many belong to the Australian Labor party for your information.

• Sir Vivor, you're right mate, I shouldn't feed him anymore, and he’s getting very obese. But I can't help myself; old teachers never give up, even on the most resistant and belligerent.
I sense HRS is learning something from me, he just won't admit it!
But best I stop now before he explodes

David_BOAZ

You ask what motivates me and Ranier and suggest some answers - without a shred of evidence. So what's new on OLO?

Ranier can speak for himself (and does it more than eloquently); but it would be more intellectually honest if you addressed the substance of my arguments rather than try to pin me down to some (mistaken) ascription of motives. You can't dispense with people's argument by merely placing a label on them.

Donnelly's just a paid stooge, retained by the rodent Federal government to put the boot into State-based education systems and teachers at every opportunity. Fortunately, he doesn't do it very well.

This 'chaplain' business has got to be one of the most nakedly obvious 'wedge' ploys I've seen yet from them. The thing that surprises me most is that anybody takes it seriously.

Sure, increase existing counselling and support services for students and (and teachers), but keep the godbotherers away from impressionable and vulnerable kids. Of course the fundies want to get into our schools - in order to proselytise, brainwash, groom and recruit.

Howard, Donnelly and others of their ilk will go along with this because they know that schoolkids who are susceptible to these activities will end up being conservative-voting happyclapping androids such as we see at Hillsong etc. This, of course, is the real agenda.

HRS,

Schools already have transition programs for students moving from primary to secondary and orientation programs for students moving up a level. I suppose they are the equivalent of your induction programs, but they really are neither here nor there in the great scheme of things. The problems in education will not be solved by better transition or orientation programs.

That you have rarely heard a teacher mention safety is not surprising. Schools are not factories. There are not problems with safety. Schools, in Victoria at least, have health and safety officers and representatives; they have fire drills; they have procedures in place for evacuations, etc. But I cannot think of a single reason for a teacher to mention these things in conversation with you or anyone else. Whether or not a teacher talks to you about student safety says nothing about school management practices. Risk management is required of the system and is done, but that has nothing to do with education itself. It is to do with safe lifting, level pavements, fume cupboards in science labs, etc. It's hardly a topic of interesting conversation. I don't normally tell people I meet that I have just rung the CFA to organise the annual inspections of fire extinguishers (something that is, surprisingly, part of my specific job as a so-called “Expert Teacher”). Schools have furniture too, but we don't tend to talk about it much either.

No-one is saying that everything is perfect in our schools, but most of us actually in schools are saying that Kevin Donnelly's picture of a low-standard, morally empty, discipline-free education system controlled by PC trendoids is false. We use a variety of teaching methods, we update through PD, we have set outcomes and standards, we assess work, we report on student progress (in Victoria now, with the strictest reporting system I have ever seen), we teach proper academic subjects and we teach right from wrong. Some schools do a poor job, but the system as a whole is not falling apart. I wish you could see things from the inside.

Rainier,
Sorry, but I haven’t learnt anything from you.

Chris C,
“We use a variety of teaching methods, we update through PD, we have set outcomes and standards, we assess work, we report on student progress (in Victoria now, with the strictest reporting system I have ever seen), we teach proper academic subjects and we teach right from wrong”

Ah Hah. Now this is a part of risk management, particularly the part “we have set outcomes and standards, we assess work, we report on student progress”. That is the first step in risk management, which is to identify possible risks.

If a student is failing in some way, then that is a risk. They can be a risk to themselves and they can also be a risk to others.

The next step is to determine how to control those risks. If you are keen then you will be looking outside the education system to learn how to overcome or control risks. Many of the larger companies now have specialised risk control officers or risk control departments. Those companies can be anything from accountancy firms through to coal mines, but the techniques those companies use can also be used in schools to identify and then control risks, to either the students or the teachers and general staff.

Also about 90% of the meetings I have attended in industry have had safety as the first agenda item. This focuses people attention on the safety and general well being of the work force as first priority, and some companies now have environmental matters as the second item on the agenda.

I wonder how many teacher’s meetings have safety as the first agenda item followed by environmental matters.

HRS,

Well let’s just leave it at that. I know nothing about factories and you know even less about teaching and schools.

I'll let you whinge to someone else until they too become frustrated with your repetitive and boring Fordist analogies.

Your poor defence and evasion of key questions put to you by myself and others is evidence enough for me to know that you not only intellectually challenged to engage with the topic at hand but too stubborn to admit it.

Perhaps this is the reason other teachers gave up on you? You're just a know it all who knows nothing but who then blames schools and teachers for this lack of self reflection. But to you it makes complete sense, poor thing.

Perhaps some intensive cognitive psychotherapy? Sorry, it’s all I can think of.

Rainier,
All you have offered is the suggestion that parents are no good. That is just excuse making but not problem solving.

As far as my teaching qualifications go, I am also a qualified trainer after undertaking a very elaborate TAFE course that qualified me to become a TAFE teacher. Many other supervisors in industry have that type of qualification as a basic or first level qualification.

I have supervised many people doing an extensive variety of tasks, and I have been involved in many projects within industry.

I have also been on 2 P&C committees over a period of about 8 years.

As far as I am concerned, the school systems are very backward and non-sophisticated. Many of the teaching systems I have see being used in schools (from primary schools through to Universities) were tried and eventually discarded a long time ago by companies outside of the education system. Those same systems were found to be too ineffective and non-reliable to be used within industry.

You have offered nothing Rainier, and from what I have seen, any teachers who are full of themselves and want to live in their own little worlds and are not interested in continuous improvement are very much a part of the reason why students have not improved their marks in now 30 years.

Also if you are a male teacher in the education system, you are an endangered species.

HRS - Several things.

Firstly, schools are teaching CHILDREN. And they are not just teaching them process A then process B. They are teaching them how to figure out what process A is, how it might be better, if there is another way of understanding it, and is process B then the next logical step, or is there another way the idea could go?

Children are not little economic cyphers, they are full of imagination and personality, and different goals and aims. People in a factory have a single aim - to complete their job in the most productive manner and to get paid. School children - be they five or fifteen years old - are at school to learn certain skills, and to socialise, learn how to fit with their world, and discover who they are.

Secondly, you keep insisting that 'grades have not gone up' - how do you figure this? Surely the top 10% of every year will still only be 10% of the available grades? We cannot all gain A+'s, and increasing the number of A's available does not indicate more skill gained, it indicates a de-valuing of what the standard should be amongst that particular group.

Frankly, your continued insistance on the applicablility of training methods of industry for use in schools is baffling. I am not a teacher (although I do volunteer work with primary-school-aged children), and nor am I a parent, but somehow it is quite clear to me that turning out good factory workers is not what education should be doing. We should be turning out people with the ability to think for, and be, themselves. And from what little contact I've had with my brothers' and cousin's friends (17-20 yrs), that is exactly what our system is doing. And quite well, too

HRS stated.

"As far as I am concerned, the school systems are very backward and non-sophisticated".

Well I've got to concede this to you; I've got no counter point to this at all. It’s as clear as day that you know everything about being backward and unsophisticated. In fact I suggest you undertake doctoral studies in this area. Kevin Donnelly needs some company.

Laurie,
I’m not talking about the number of student’s with A’s. I’m talking about the number of students who fail to even gain a C. Those are the students at risk, and there are an increasing number of those students amongst boys.

Teachers such as Rainier would know all about this, as the number of boys going on to higher education is gradually declining in time.

That is how good the current education system is.

Rainier and HRS. In some respects each of you is right. The problem with the education system, at least here in Victoria, is that it is too academically orientated for a lot of students. We used to have technical schools which trained non-academic students in the practical skills they needed to become tradesmen. Then some bright sod decided that all students should have the opportunity to become academics. Now we have a system that is very deficient at meeting the needs of the non-academics. If I am not mistaken, this is the area where HRS would like to see some improvement and I am sure there are many others who feel that way too. My impression is that boys in general are better equipped to follow this path, and male teachers are more effective in this area too. I have a friend who teaches in the TAFE system and he now finds it very difficult to get boys who are doing apprenticeships motivated. This was not the case when we had technical schools.

VK3AUU
I think someone should be going as far as they can in their education before they get a trade. I also know of companies that will not take on an apprentice unless they have completed grade 12, as they have found it too difficult to train someone who has only completed grade 10.

However student marks are gradually declining even in primary school also, according to benchmark tests.

I have found what boys need most (and also many girls) is a structured system. If the system is not structured well enough then they are not interested. They need the induction systems and a structured teaching and training program. They need to see older people who have been through that structured system, and then they use those people as a role model.

If there is little structure in the school systems, and a loss of role models as well, then the chaplains may give some boys a role model.

VK3AUU,

I believe there is not a great deal of difference between vocational and academic content and intellectual rigor.

I say this coming come from a trade / technical background into an academic workforce.

My arguments thus far have merely pointed out that teaching and

learning (wherever it occurs) should be considered inside a much

more theoretical and adventurous paradigm than what is being offered up by the

didactic fordist HRS.

Electrians who know all about Proust, Chomsky and Ralston- Saul ? YES!

Professors of literature who know how to change a light bulb and mow their own lawns?

Education should not be limited to those who can pay for it – nor should it be regulated and controlled through quality control mechanisms that come from a factory mentality.

Rainier,
It is interesting that all the authors you have mentioned are male,which makes it even more worrying that males are gradually dropping out of education systems.

You seem to be holding those male authors in high regard, but are opposing chaplains from coming into the education system, which would help to turn the tide of males leaving the now decaying education system.

HRS says that chaplains coming into the education system "would help to turn the tide of males leaving the now decaying education system". Evidence? Not a skerrick. Supporting argument? Zilch. Just blind faith. (I'll leave the unsupported assumption about decay to the dentist.)

Here's a contrary proposition (equally with no evidence or supporting argument): High profile professional footballers or cricketers going into the system would do more than an army of god-squadders to retain male students. And keep them healthier!

HRS,

Besides teaching, I helped establish an independent school years ago and I'm still on its governing committee.

You may rightly ask - why is this relevant?

Well I periodically search for teachers to employ and from my experience the gender of teachers means very little.

Good teachers are just that -good teachers -no matter what gender. Yes male teachers can and do perform important role modelling for male and female students, but I think this modelling can also be performed by anyone. Our school janitors and gardeners (big burley blokes) do this job very well.

As for chaplains (i prefer to call them a school elders) they should in my view attempt to support (but not necessarily decide) the moral and ethical culture of the school.

HRS, in any school day you must deal with a range of issues that are not just confined to teaching and learning as such.

Emotional, psychological, medical, spiritual, humorous, tragedy, self esteem, racial, cultural, linguistic, are just a few of the thousands of ways you can describe a school class, day, year or semester.

I’m sure you could apply these descriptors to your factory as well, but first you have to admit they exist.

Oooook... a voice from the wilderness here....

this has degenerated into a 'my teaching methods are better than yours' exercise.. I thought the topic was about a lost moral compass !

Doesn't anyone have anything to say about that ?

Is it the absense of any moral foundation that causes some to wax ever so eloquent about ways of teaching ?

Ranier old son... you have been quoting scripture to me, and I absolutely love it. Why not use some here in connection with moral compass instead of making me the bible basher all the time ?

You know as well as I do that there is plenty in it to provide a great foundation for society, and why don't we take the initiative and run with what is good, rather than just point the verbal bone at Bozo and the 'Church' ? :)

Laurie.. hope all is well with you.. haven't said boo 2 u 4 a while.

BD,

I already work from a moral compas, don't need to check a bible for navigation either, kinda comes with knowing how immoral the church and christianity has been to me and mine..you learn from their mistakes.

Under this compass I learned all about

the immorality of child abuse
the immorality of stealing children
the imomorality of christian doctrine
the immorality and hypocricy of christian values

When you've witnessed immorality at its best, you're set for life!

you should try it sometime!

“…a form and order of a reformed church limited within the compass of God’s Word, which our saviour hath left unto us as only sufficient to govern all our actions by; so that what so ever is added to this word by man’s device, seem it never so good, holy, or beautiful, yet before God… it is evil, wicked, and abominable.”

Rainier,
So now the people who are the role models in schools are the school janitors and gardeners, but can they talk to the students? They might be able to, but not for long because they have a job to do, and to be a “big surely bloke” is not necessarily a credential for a role model.

The US school system would be a good example of educational decay, complete with its Ritalin programs and emphasis on deconstruction. The ratio of left-wingers to right-wingers in many schools and Universities in the US is now about 30:1. But what the male left-wingers over looked was that many left-wingers were also feminists, who were quite anti-male. So when the right-wingers were taken out of the schools and Universities, it left behind few males, and those male left-wingers that were left behind were having to constantly look over their shoulder for all the left wing feminists who are after their valuables

So if you are a male school teacher, it doesn’t matter if you are left wing or right wing. You are now an endangered species, but if you want to become a role model for children, then of course you can always become a school janitor or gardener.

HRS states: "The ratio of left-wingers to right-wingers in many schools and Universities in the US is now about 30:1". I have it on good authority (promised not to tell on my sources) that it ranges between 29.845: 1 on the east coast and 31.896 on the west coast. This is an increase since 1976 of exactly 361.9127%. The statistics come from the ABS - the American Bull-dust Society.

What's he on? Will he be OK on his own for Christmas?

Re:
: "The ratio of left-wingers to right-wingers in many schools and Universities in the US is now about 30:1". I have it on good authority (promised not to tell on my sources) that it ranges between 29.845: 1 on the east coast and 31.896 on the west coast. This is an increase since 1976 of exactly 361.9127%. The statistics come from the ABS - the American Bull-dust Society."

Well, I have to give credit to HRS for not being overprecise here. There is always an element of uncertainty in these observed ratios, and "about" can cover a fair latitude.

As for the American Bull-dust Society, It's wise not to take their pages too seriously. One page (subsequently removed) argued at length that there is no such thing as a fact. That is where statistics can take you, if you stray from the beaten path.

I would dearly love to know the source of all these statistics on the number of left-wingers and right-wingers in American schools. Kevin's research?

Dear Mr Donnelly,
Can you back up these left-right ratio estimates? Which issue of the Australian? Which one of your substantial and erudite tomes? Who is the publisher? Can I get a review copy?

Frank Gol,
I thought new age warrior teachers wouldn’t believe in Christmas, because it is too religious.

The imbalance of left wing teachers to right wing teachers in US schools is one of the reasons for the attempt to introduce the Academic Bill of Rights.

“As a result, while the red and blue electoral map reveals an America that is almost evenly divided between Republicans and Democrats, in the nation's universities Republicans (and conservatives) have become almost as rare as unicorns. In most schools, Republicans are less well represented than Greens, Marxists and sects of the far left. This is an indefensible situation with far-reaching implications.”
http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/

As well as that, they put nearly 7 million boys on Ritalin, but does it actually make students smarter and better-equipped citizens?

“Does going to college make students better-educated citizens? A new study of more than 14,000 randomly selected college students from across the country concludes that the answer is often no. Not only did many respondents at the 50 participating colleges fail to answer half of the basic civics questions correctly, but at such elite schools as Cornell, Berkeley and Johns Hopkins, the college freshmen scored higher than the college seniors.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15014682/site/newsweek/

It appears that the US education system with all of its left wing thinking is actually a risk to the students, so the important question is whether or not teachers in Australia will learn from that risk, and learn what not to do when teaching.

Sir Vivor, HRS and all other Kevin fans,

Sorry, sorry! Mea culpa maximus! I appear to have been the victim of a wilful and malicious fraud. Not only was the source of my statistics about the ratio of left: right wingers in American schools in error; but also it has now been revealed that the methodology used was seriously flawed.

The American Bull-dust Society should have read The American Bird-eaters Society. It has now been revealed that at their national Christmas convention the turkey and chicken samples were deliberately manipulated. A group of ideologically-driven local bird-eaters had infiltrated the Convention and prematurely plucked off the right wings of every third bird.

Nevertheless, the chief statistician assures me that the data set was able to be restored and the data interrogated satisfactorily. Technical allowances have now been made for the skewed wing sample and the ratio of left-wingers to right-wingers in American schools can be contingently, seasonally adjusted to meet the previous un-random sampling problem.

New statistics just published show that the ratio is now between 31.1469 and 33.3333. This is acknowledged to be a statisically significant result (>.005). Furthermore, the ABS has announced tough new security measures to prevent wings being sampled prior to Christmas next year.

HRS, Isn't it time you went back to work in the factory? You seem to have lots of idle time on your hands to discuss issues here on OLO with cafe latte lefties.

Oh, i get it you're not a worker, you're one of those middle managers. Not rich enough to own the factory but evil enough to be promoted.

What i find funny here is that you keep running around in circles just like the liberal and labor party do.

Yes we have lost the ability to inform and teach those of right and wrong due to the amounting amounts od policy dictacting everything.

This can be seen in the world today as no respect,discipline and where is this to end, with you all just keep blabbing about it.

Well how about the solution to the problem or this may be too hard to fathom.

As i would have been classed as middle class labor has no interest in me as like with the education/teachers union are they not one of the largest supporters of the labor party.

our children and the people of Australia should be given the rights that are required for moral standing and to be told the truth and not just what the spin doctors and media want you to know.

If you are not told the whole picture how can things be moral.

Email:swulrich@bigpond.net.au
Australian Peoples Party

Havnt heard about it well that is the morals of our media and big business today. Tell you only what they want you to hear and know.

Rainier,
I do know how it must be for teachers.

Having to think of new excuses all the time.
Having to think of what to say to any dissenters.
Having to ignore declining student marks.
Having to ignore the fact that industry can teach and train people as well as, if not better than schools.
Having to noe search through a school for someone to act as a role model for the students, including the janitors and gardeners.
Having to ask for even more of the taxpayer’s money without having to justify it, or even produce better results from the students.

It must be a tough life, and not everyone could do it

HRS,

Anytime you'd like to jump in front of my classroom and teach English literature or Australian industrial history or anything you think you've got a handle on let me know.

Be warned my students can spot a wan-ker a hundred yards away.

But we both know this will never happen so why don't you go back and check the time sheets and productivity levels of those underpaid / overworked people you do "quality control" on.

Why not create another batch of induction video's focusing on the virtues of anal retentive production managers like yourself!

Now there's a thought! :)

HRS,

When you first used terms like “safety” and “risk management”, I thought you were using them in their ordinary English meanings, but later comments show that you mean something entirely different, so it is very difficult to converse with you. However, I will make another attempt.

Classes of more than 30 students might have been common 30 years ago, but I have never in 33 years had even one. In fact, there has been only one full year in which I have had any classes with more than 25 students.

The only school meeting that would have safety as its first item would be health and safety committee's. I can't imagine why safety would be the English meeting 's first item.

You are right to say that teaching is a tough life. Surveys show that the average teacher works a 50-hour week, but is paid for only 38 hours. Teacher pay, compared with average earnings, is more than 25 per cent below 30 years ago. The pupil-teacher ratio in Victorian secondary schools is some 10 per cent worse than 25 years ago. Teaching loads are higher than 20 years ago. Attendance at parent-teacher interviews is worse than 25 years ago. We have to endure evidence-free attacks on our profession on a weekly basis, and are often denied the right to respond. My school receives about $7,000 per student and this is called “throwing money at the problem”. The top private schools charge $20,000 and this is called “investing in your child's future”. We deal with children with all sorts of problems every day. If I had the authority, I would invite you to come and spend a week in my school and see what it is really like.

Comparing industry training programs with school education is invalid because workers are effectively volunteers while students are conscripts, industry has a narrow focus while schools have a broad 'whole-person' focus and the instructor has an authority the teacher can only dream of.

My school played Christmas carols in the second last week of the term - no PC here.

Isnt it good to see all talk from both sides but nothing inbetween.

Just like teachers talk but when i went to ask questions how to solve the problems in schools I couldnt get a word out of them.

So really what type of morality are we showing in schools when the teachers cannot and will not show it themselves.

Must be a union thing.

Cant tell anyone else but the union and labor.

Well come on how about a soulution or am i right and the only way this can be fixed is to make things up and ask parents.

Since teachers are not willing or just to gutless to stand up for what is right.

Just to carry on with garbage and not fix it.

And if you do want to fix it contact me

Email:swulrich@bigpond.net.au
Australian Peoples Party

Dear RANIER
Immorality and hypocrisy of Christian values ?

Care to elaborate ? Are you making a distinction between 'Church' values as you have experienced them and Biblical Values ?

Seems to me you are just hiding behind a pack of perceived hypocrites mate.
Further, your so called moral compass seems to be simply reactionary.

Before you start ripping into all the flawed Christians and flawed Churches, you might re-examine scripture and review the bit about beams and specks.. because we (the evil Christians) are not telling you that ur this or that or the other thing bad, but we are saying you need to turn to Christ as do ALL men and women. So, you come back with 'but you are a pack of immoral hypocrites' when the reality is we say ALL men are sinners. We don't point at you as the 'bad' guy and us as the 'good' guys. No.. we say mankind was meant to have a relationship with our Creator, to be filled with His Spirit, renewed in mind heart and body, and to walk in daily fellowship with Him.

If you are not at that point now, them we call on you and all who read these words to turn 'from' the self filled life and 'to' the Christ filled life.

To all of us.....
Lets re-capture that moral compass, in our inner beings.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Rom 12:9-1

Rainier,
I see that being an English teacher has certainly made a big difference in you.

You have now called people everything from “whores” to “wan-ker”. What an magnificent command of the English language you have, and such a high level of self-expression and general morality.

The important issue is how, or why does the education system allow teachers such as yourself to remain in that system. It means to me that the education system now has the most minimal of standards.

Bring on the Chaplains. I don’t think they can make the education system any worse.

Chris C
I am suggesting that you study the techniques that industry has found useful in identifying risks. I have seen a system in one school that was refined to such an extent that it was possible to accurately predict the most likely OP score of a grade 12 student from their marks in their first exams in grade 8. If their exam results were low in those first exams, then other steps were then undertaken to help increase the student's marks. The school did not want their students to get low marks. That is risk identification and risk control.

So far as safety committees are concerned, they should only act as watchdogs. The risk identification and risk control is carried out by everyone in that organisation, and not just someone on a safety committee.

Not having safety as the first item on the agenda of a general type meeting, is a very good indication that risk management is not a part of the general philosophy of that organisation, and I certainly would not like to work in that organisation.

As a former student & parent with three children ( two in different selective schools- one in opportunity class ) It is my assessment that while there are some, perhaps many, quality teachers out there. There are strong currents in the education system which seek equality of outcome -regardless of the different talents & efforts of the students. They don’t always prevail, but they are always there contending for the upper hand& in some cul-de-sacs dominate.

All too often it is more acceptable to have a class of mediocre students that a mixed bag of stars & failures.

Re Rainer:
Considering his unmatchable ability to always lower the moral & intellectual standard of a discussion he must be in line for some sort of forum 2006 award - maybe someone should mention it to GrahamY.

Horus,
I think the term quality infers that something is well above average or exceptional, and to have quality, then there must be some type of quality control system, which again comes back to risk management.

I have heard of teachers say that quality teaching is being carried out, but if I mention risk management to those same teachers, then they seem to have no idea of what I am talking about, so their quality control is suspect and their risk management approach is suspect also.

A quality teacher should be able to lift a student’s marks. If a student starts the year getting C’s, then a quality teacher should be able to identify what is wrong with the student and should be able to lift the student’s marks to B’s or higher, and they could use a variety of teaching methods to do that. That would be quality teaching.

However student marks are not increasing in time, and in areas such as literacy, the student’s marks have actually declined in the last 30 years. So unfortunately, I don’t think there is much quality teaching being carried out.

"However student marks are not increasing in time, and in areas such as literacy, the student’s marks have actually declined in the last 30 years. So unfortunately, I don’t think there is much quality teaching being carried out."

Yes, we've read this broken record statement about 60 times now.

Can't you go beyond these flat earth comments?

C'mon HRS, just try, you can do it! Believe in yourself! We are here to support you! We believe in you! You're the best!

HRS,

You persist in claiming that education should be run according to the terminology of your own industry, whatever that is. I persist in saying that it should not. For education to adopt your industry's terminology and way of thinking would be as silly as the reverse. I have never heard anyone in industry say that the first agenda item at their meetings is the principal's report, and I do not claim it should be or say I wouldn't work there because it isn't. I expect each field to run according its own purpose and nature.

You cannot run all schools from the one-teacher primary school with 10 pupils to the 150-teacher P-12 school with 2,500 pupils in the same way, but I will give you some insight into how my school works. It is a secondary college with some 1200 pupils and about 95 teachers (about 10 fewer than it should have, thanks to the previous Liberal Government).

There is a regular staff meeting. It has reports from the principal, the assistant principals, the curriculum committee, the health and safety person and so on, plus agenda items listed by staff members. It does not discuss individual students because that is not its role. It does discuss data such as AIM results, VCE results, staff opinion surveys, student opinion surveys. There is a lot of data for the school and like schools for comparison. There is a strategic plan guiding the school over a four-year period.

There are regular faculty meetings; e.g., English, Humanities, Arts, etc. They discuss their particular educational programs and other matters related to the overall curriculum.

There are regular sub-school meetings. They discuss matters of discipline and welfare and, sometimes, individual students.

There are various committees. The curriculum committee discusses the school's curriculum. The management advisory committee discusses staffing, working conditions, timetabling and the like. There are others, both ongoing and specific purpose, each with a particular role.

It's not that schools cannot learn from industry, but most of the ideas forced on schools from industry are rubbish: e.g., performance plans, annual reviews, bonuses, etc.

Chris C,

People like Kevin Donnelly and their pet parrots like HRS don't want to know about democratic decision-making in schools, the regular use of data, information-sharing meetings, curriculum planning and hard-working, thoughtful teachers.

That's way too much reality. They'd rather wallow in the old myths about falling standards, immoral or slack teachers, leftist dominance and the good old days when schools ran like factories and people knew their place and were kept there.

Please don't spoil things for them by intrusive accounts of reality.

HRS,

Re marks: under VELS, C means that the student is at the expected level; B, six months in front; A, 12 months in front; D, six months behind. Thus, a student who starts year 8 with a C and finishes with a C has actually made 12 months improvement. One who starts with a B and finishes with a C has made six months improvement - not good enough, I agree, but I am simply trying to give you the terminology.

ENTER scores are not marks, but rankings. If there are 40,000 students, the top 20 or so students in the state will get 99.95 whether their actual standard is higher or lower than the year before. The next 20 will get 99.9, and so on.

Comparisons are meant to be of like with like; e.g., Victoria has had a high proportion of students with non-English speaking backgrounds for years; such students will have lower marks unless they are first taught English, which is what the system attempts to do. Some schools have a large proportion of students from poorer families, and their marks will be lower unless the system invests more money in helping them, which it does - though not to the extent necessary.

I have taught for 33 years, 28 of them in leadership positions (including two periods as an acting vice principal), so allow me to make some observations. Students today are no worse behaved than students were when I began teaching in 1974, but they are much less willing to do the work that is set. This is not the responsibility of the teacher but of the students and their parents, who seem to see education as less valuable than they saw it as 30 years ago. This observation is not due to socio-economic factors, as my first school was in a poor Housing Commission area.

Attacks on teachers seem to have become a self-replicating lie. The first lie is believed and then repeated by those who know no better - and so it goes. Attempts to correct the lies are usually refused publication.

Kevin Donnelly’s argument is that the Left has wrecked education, so let’s have another “intrusive account[] of reality” about which side did the damage:

Wasting energy on re-organizing and renaming the Education Department/Ministry of Education/Office of Schools Administration/Department of School Education/Directorate of School Education/Department of Education/etc/etc (both sides).
Under-funding of school maintenance (both sides).
Cutting teacher salaries in both real and relative terms over the decades (both sides).
Reducing discipline in schools in the 80s (Labor).
Introducing the low-standard VCE (Labor).
Using retrospective legislation to get out of legally enforceable contracts with the teaching profession (Liberals).
Dumping 9,000 needed teachers (Liberals).
Increasing class sizes (Liberals).
Increasing teaching loads (Liberals).
Reducing elective choice (Liberals).
Abolishing history and geography in favour of the mess of SOSE (Liberals).
Reducing the number of marks required to get an A in VCE English tasks between 1994 and 1996 (Liberals).
Putting large numbers of teachers on short-term contracts (Liberals).
Putting principals on contracts to facilitate their supporting the Liberal attack on their colleagues in the classroom (Liberals).
Removing teacher input from principal selection (Liberals).
Changing principal section panels so that it was no longer required that the majority of members be local or that the majority have educational qualifications (Liberals).
Increasing the power of principals to bully and victimise their staffs (Liberals).
Introducing limited tenure promotion positions and bonuses for sycophants as command and control devices (Liberals).
Introducing performance plans, annual reviews and all the mad jargon of the business world (Liberals).
Bogging schools down in charters, triennial reviews, data-fests and the like (Liberals).
Discriminating against teachers and other department employees on School Councils (Liberals).
Destroying the advantages of economies of scale inherent in a system by making schools spend thousands of person-hours creating their own versions of key selection criteria, etc. (Liberals).
Running a campaign of denigration against the teaching profession (Liberals).

It looks like the Right has done far more damage than the Left, the Left in this case simply being the Labor Party which, according to election after election at the state and territory level, represents the majority of Australians.

It is often claimed that students are not taught facts any more, just PC attitudes. Below is evidence to the contrary - my school’s year 8 history course, based on VELS.

A student should:

1. show knowledge and understanding of medieval societies:
1.1 daily life, the role and work of various groups, the division of labour between men and women, education, rituals and family, clothing, housing;
1.2 the values and beliefs of medieval societies through their religions, myths and legends, and their social and political structures;
1.3 the ways that medieval societies were governed, political features and the nature of the political system, the dominant groups and how they established and maintained power;
1.4 key events and significant individuals (the fall of Rome, the Viking raids, the Norman Conquest, William the Conqueror);
1.5 the influence of trade and contact with other cultures.

2. know and use historical concepts:
2.1 time – chronology and sequencing, change and continuity, the ability to locate periods within a time frame;
2.2 cause and effect.

3. compare key aspects of medieval and present societies;
3.1 aspects of 1 in medieval and modern times;
3.2 influences of medieval societies on contemporary societies; for example, the origins of written law, democracy and the calendar; the limitations on the power of the monarchs (through the rule of law and the writ of habeas corpus); and the origins of major world religions;
3.3 key concepts of democracy, governance, the rule of law, justice, religion, liberty, authority, leadership, culture;
3.4 key individuals’ contributions and legacies.

4.use historical conventions:
4.1 use of a variety of primary and secondary sources;
4.2 evaluation of historical sources for meaning, completeness, point of view, values and attitudes;
4.3 reflection on strengths and limitations of historical documents;
4.4 identification of the content, origin, purpose and context of historical sources.

5. use historical processes:
5.1 framing key research questions to guide their investigations, planning their inquiries;
5.2 using appropriate historical evidence to present a point of view and to report on their findings;
5.3 documenting sources by using a bibliography and footnotes.

Not particularly left-wing, is it?

There you go again Chris C!

I told you before that facts only confuse people who want to believe what the Donnelly's of this world want them to believe. We all 'know' that schools are full of left-wing, post-modernist, value-free, relativist apostates. Please don't muddy the waters with actual evidence.

here it goes again

BLAH BLAH BLAH

You know how to solve this but no keep going whether its liberal federal or labor at state you still have the problem but due to the inground beliefs that you have you have no interest in schooling but about political bashing.

When will you see that a change can be made if we work together for a goal and not a political party based policy.

When it comes to solving this it is up to the people that is us not politicians who have created this whole mess with you banging your heads againts each other.

Its just like opening a door but you lot are trying to pull in one direction and the others in the other direction.

You do as you are told and how to follow now how about looking at the problem and stop listening to those that are telling you what to do but look within and what does it tell you what to do.

Now that is the morally right thing.

Now that since i have had no replies from anyone this tells me that your interest is education is only party politics based and you have no interest in fixing the problem, also at the rate the liberal and labor governments are selling off Australia it wouldnt suprise me if education is well on the agenda.

But just in case here is my contact again.

email:swulrich@bigpond.net.au
Australian Peoples Party

Frank Gol,

I am sorry, but I can out-fact Gradgrind. I know facts are troublesome to those who enjoy their unconsidered teacher-bashing, but they are useful in persuading the open-minded. Having given a list of the damaging things done to education, I now produce a list of improvements, with the responsibility for each indicated.

Commencing the devolution of power to representative School Councils (Liberals).
Employing an extra 13,000 teachers between 1973 and 1978 (Liberals). [It was partly in response to the commitment to their profession that so many teachers displayed in those days, but it is still an achievement, and it does show that Liberals have not always been destructive.]
Improving the primary PTR from 22.6:1 in 1974 to 18.1:1 in 1981 (Liberals).
Improving the secondary PTR from 14.1:1 in 1974 to 10.9:1 in 1981 (Liberals).
Further devolving power to School Councils (Labor).
Limiting high school teaching loads to 18 hours (Labor).
Limiting high school classes to 25 students (Labor).
Setting a minimum time allowance pool of 90 minutes per teacher (Labor).
Improving the primary PTR from 18.1 in 1981 to 15.8 in 1992 (Labor)
Improving the secondary PTR from 10.9 in 1981 to 10.8:1 in 1992 (Labor).
Improving VCE marking (Liberals).
Setting up the Victorian Institute of Teaching (Labor).
Restoring teacher representation to principal selection panels (Labor).
Providing VCAL as an alternative to VCE (Labor).
Dumping SOSE and restoring history and geography as traditional disciplines within the humanities (Labor).
Instituting a high-standard reporting system across the state that provides parents with specific information on much their children have progressed each year (Labor).
Employing an extra 5,193 teachers between 1999 and 2006 (Labor).
Improving the primary pupil-teacher ratio from 17.2:1 in 1999 to 16.1 in 2006 (Labor)
Improving the secondary pupil-teacher ratio from 12.6:1 in 1999 to 12.0:1 in 2006 (Labor).
Staffing primary schools to allow a maximum class size of 21 pupils in prep to grade 2 (Labor).
Investing $1.4 billion in capital spending on schools (Labor).
Committing to rebuild every school in the state, with a down-payment of $1.9 Billion in the next four years (Labor).

Oh goody labor decides to spend money

hang on it must be april 1st.

You are all still morons and i am only just a normal bloke with morals that can see what labor and liberals have done.
Which brings me to the question why did i join the army to get injured and get screwed by labor and liberal party's and i say party's as it is these that are running what is soon to be know as The Country That used to be Called Australia as they are selling of everything.

Why defend this country, why did our anzacs fight and die for this place when the people only care about to pathetic, ignorant party's that have almost sold the whole of australia.

What a crime an you morrons cant even solve the education crissis.

No wonder this country is screwed

I should add two other damaging changes to my list:
A ministerial order purporting to ban teachers from speaking out about education (Liberals).
The addition of a second member of the principals’ club to principal selection panels (Labor).

I should also add two other significant improvements:
Introducing a school-based component to HSC assessment (Liberals).
Lifting the ban on teachers speaking out on education (Labor).

I left the “:1” out of some of the PTRs. Below is how they should read, re-grouped by primary then secondary, so that you can see the progress at each level (and the intervening period of darkness from 1992 to 1999):
Improving the primary PTR from 22.6:1 in 1974 to 18.1:1 in 1981 (Liberals).
Improving the primary PTR from 18.1:1 in 1981 to 15.8:1 in 1992 (Labor).
[The Liberals worsened it to 17.2:1 by 1999.]
Improving the primary PTR from 17.2:1 in 1999 to 16.1:1 in 2006 (Labor).
Improving the secondary PTR from 14.1:1 in 1974 to 10.9:1 in 1981 (Liberals).
Improving the secondary PTR from 10.9:1 in 1981 to 10.8:1 in 1992 (Labor).
[The Liberals worsened it to 12.6:1 by 1999.]
Improving the secondary PTR from 12.6:1 in 1999 to 12.0:1 in 2006 (Labor).

There are criticisms to be made of our education systems; e.g., the large numbers of students who do not achieve adequate skills for life in a modern society. But these criticisms have to be based on facts. The teachers I know are, in the main, hard-working and dedicated people, who apply standards in both student behaviour and academic achievement.

Tapp,

Dancing across this forum throwing abuse will not get people to engage with any argument you may have. I can see no reason for supplying my email address to someone who dismisses the facts and ideas I present as “BLAH BLAH BLAH”. If you want to contribute to the discussion of the topic, please do so.

I am a normal bloke and my ranting may be so.

As not being an academic one would have to ask re the ranting that go on here.

I have asked on how you would fix the school problem and of which has just been ignored.

I have said that if you wish to fix it and help please email me, but that is entirely up to you.

You can pass backwards and forwards on who has done what but this will not satify what has to be done.

For instance more teachers
Fixing up the schools
equipment

those are the types of things needed not political grandstanding.
I do get angree as i can see the frustration with the kids and principals at trying to achieve and steal from peter to pay paul.

Now if you realy have some solutions email and i wont give you any bull.
I dont what crap i want to fix and maintain, I know this will cost but the thing is it is our childrens future and their childrens that we should look at.
So i am after those who are feed up, and if you where just like me it looks like parliament question time, I am after answers not spin.

Email:swulrich@bigpond.net.au

And also you may understand a bit more if you emailed.
To get angry at the state of affairs is good at least this gets a reply, you may not like it but it works.

Fixing the problems in education requires a clear understanding of what they are and what the ideal is. The basic problem is that the system is misdirected and under-resourced.

1. Use vertical modular grouping in schools. It is ridiculous to promote students to more demanding levels when they haven’t learnt the easier work. It is equally ridiculous to make students repeat a whole level because they have problems in one subject.

2. Enforce existing marking criteria for VCE, which are rigorous, but which are ignored in the handing out of “Satisfactory” to anyone who basically meets the attendance requirements.

3.Enforce a high standard of behaviour in government schools so that teachers can get on with teaching and the long-suffering majority of students can get on with learning.

4. Rebuild the technical side of education. This does not mean the re-creation of separate technical schools as once existed in Victoria.

5. Support teachers as teachers, not facilitators. Teachers need both subject expertise and skill in imparting knowledge. Abandon the recycled 1970s open classroom enquiry-based project learning that has just resurfaced in Victoria despite being dumped as a complete failure 30 years ago. According to Dr Ken Rowe of ACER, there are 500,000 studies that show students do better with direct instruction.

6. Encourage able, independent-minded men and women with integrity to go into teaching. That means dropping the performance review claptrap and all the other business-sourced mantras from schools, returning the running of schools to the democratically expressed collegiate judgment of the teaching professionals, returning class sizes and teaching loads to what they were 20 years ago, restoring salaries to the levels that applied when I began teaching (that’s a 30 per cent increase).

7. Use economies of scale. Re-establish education as a system, not supposedly competing small businesses under the direction of supposedly entrepreneurial principals, which makes every school re-invent the wheel, with many of them square.

8. Choose the best people to be principals rather than the ones most compliant with the fad of the month.

9. Rebuild schools as sustainable, solid, permanent buildings, not rabbit-warrens of portables.

ChrisC

well done now this is what i am going on about

Due to this being about what has been going on about education this is great finally true info on how to fix the problem.

If anyone would like to help out more

Email: swulrich@bigpond.net.au