Benjamin,

Sorry to disappoint you but Saddam's rise to power was intimately orchestrated and assisted by the CIA. They got him out of the country after his failed assassination attempt on PM Qassim and later gave him support during his coup.
They also provided him with 600+ names to put on on the subsequent "death list".
Of course they "used him" - that's why he was put there in the first place.

It was the same story for the installation of almost every dictator in Central America (except Cuba)plus a few in Africa as well.

The rise of militant Islam in Iran was the result of their ongoing support for the Shah. By the time he was forced out, he had literally killed of all his moderate opposition so only the fundamentalists were left to take control.

Another famous recruit was Osama Bin Laden, who they used to fight the Russians for them in Afghanistan.

The USA also had good relations with their friends, the Taliban - until they reneged on an oil pipeline contract.

The USA has a long and tragic history of meddling in the affairs of any foreign government it sees as a threat or one that cannot be controlled, but it's only now that their past is beginning to catch up with them.

Anybody who thinks this is just a simple struggle over religious dogma is completely missing the point and probably watches too much TV.

OK Pete and Wobbles - my fault for being obtuse - I was drinking cheap Lambrusco (4lt / $6.99).

This is my point in reverse:

6. The US Government's narrative is just a story - that's all.

5. The case for the 19 brown hijackers with box cutters is totally shonky.

4. Can you give me one scintilla of actual evidence in support the official conspiracy theory that it was done by an Islamic suicide team of brilliantly gifted airline pilots?

3. If not, then why do we waste thousands of postings to dozens of threads in support of an unproven idea?

2. Are we breathing life into an idea which has no basis in reality?

1. Who would want us to do that?

Chris,

The laws of the paralell universe that you live in do not seem to apply here. Logic, reason and clear as day evidence is completley ignored in this universe, we have been told a million times about the evils of OBL and the fact that he is responsbile for 9/11. This makes it now true, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

To finish, some words from a modern political activist you may not of heard of.

'weapons, not food, not homes not shoes, not need, just feed the war cannibal animal. I walk the road down to the rubble, that used to be a library, line up for the mind cemetery now. What we don't know keeps the contracts alive and moving, they don't gotta burn the bookss they just remove them. While arms warehouses fill as quick as the cells, rally around the family, pocket full of shells.'

Zach De la Rocha.

Special for Rache, Carl and Chris...the 'GANG OF 3':)

Now let me tell you a thing or two !(I have Joh's hat on right now)

1/ All that you say about the CIA, is undoubtedly true, but in all honesty it is the 'degree' which is probably the fuzziest.
2/ All that is true of the CIA is EQUALLY true of every regime that has ever been.

Why ? simple, they are at the coal face of national survival. The old tribalism has NEVER died, its still with us. (another reason to be VERY suspicious of such absurd inventions as 'multiculturalism')
Every tribe is vyying for control, and greater influence. Why you mob single out the Yanks and Brits is beyond my imagination, because I simply repeat my oft stated question "To WHOM do you point as a better, purer, and less ugly alternative"

I think that until you can, its best not to keep on whining about the evils of Western Intelligence agencies as they are looking after YOUR interests and security. For every CIA agent there was KGB one..right ? etc etc etc.

Now.. you all know where I stand.. I DO have an alternative -and its Life in Christ. That immediately lifts us out of this grisley human quagmire of evil. In Christ, we are one with brothers and sisters in Russia, America, England, Iran, Palestine, South America.. EVery where.
I cannot and will not say that 'When Christians are in power, things will be ok' because we all know thats not the case. Reason ? Christ's kingdom is not of this world. Plus, Christian emperors are exposed to very powerful people who do not share the same principles. (Study the Cromwell experience)

But I don't see any value in ripping into the CIA "ALONE".
Thrash senseless ALL Intelligence agencies from ALL countries. But I promise, it will eventually come full circle back to.....ourselves :)

BD,

Ill try and explain for you. We are undoubtedly amongst the luckiest people in the world, as are all middle class westerners. Access, to food, healthcare and some level of freedom are luxuries that the large majority of people in the world are not lucky enough to have. Of course, you are already aware of this.

We are privvy to these luxuries because of a complicated mix of history, luck and politics. America gave the world something pretty special when they conceived the idea of a nation based on democracy and freedom (however far from reality that dream was is irrelevant).

Now tell me BD, how do you expect the despotic regimes in China, Norht Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, Sudan or elsewhere to respect democracy when the most powerful nation in the world, and the so called western democracies behave in such an anti-democratic ways?

Why do I single out the CIA? Because they are the ones in the best position to change things. I DO despise the despots in the developing world as much as I do Bush and Cheney, but I criticise the US the most because they are in a position to make the world a better place, most despots can't feed there own people

The allure of terrorism will never be completely gotten rid of. Look at how many nutty Christian groups there are and some of the stupid things they do e.g. the Jones town suicides and David Koresh. If living in a 1st world civilised country does not destroy extreme Christianity what hope is there for Islam? At least extreme Christians don’t run around killing innocent people in the name of Jesus Christ.

Australians can look forward to many centuries of being worried about people blowing themselves up in the name of Allah in our cities and we can thank our good friend multiculturalism for that! Who would dare saying anything bad about multiculturalism