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The Forum > Article Comments > Uninvited and unwelcome > Comments

Uninvited and unwelcome : Comments

By Des Moore, published 16/8/2006

Rejecting the tough new immigration laws was misguided.

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Those who are in our region and find themselves in distress may have grounds to seek refuge in our country. Those from far away countries should seek refuge in their regions should they need to.

Under the arcane refugee rules Saddam Hussein could make application to be classified as a refugee if he made it to Ashmore Reef.
Posted by Sage, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 8:48:02 AM
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1. Australia has signed international treaties which oblige it to offer protection to those with a well founded fear of persecution.

2. If Australia does not wish to adhere to its international legal obligations, then it should drop the pretence, and officially withdraw from them. The current approach of pretending to adhere to them, but moving the Australian borders so that nobody can find them is pure hypocrisy.

3. The vast majority of asylum seekers have been proven to be genuine refugees.

4. Suggesting that the West Papuans are the aggressors against the poor, peace loving Indonesian military is pure twaddle.
Posted by AMSADL, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 9:20:51 AM
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Ever heard of the idea of wanting to get as far away as possible?
Also the Author start this piece with a rather big statement which is compete crap. Should the US not have fought it's war of independence?
Posted by Kenny, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 9:24:10 AM
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Dear Sir,

Have you heard the expression "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

The status of the West Papuans was determined by an independent tribunal applying Australian law. The Parliament has decided that there should be no change to the system. The rule of law in operation - it works for me. Perhaps our most celebrated recent arrivals were fleeing West Papua for precisely that reason: to flee a place where the rule of law does not apply, where rules are not applied, and arbitrariness is the norm. You couldn't blame them for leaving.

Try to keep that biblical adage in mind, my friend
Posted by The Skeptic, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 9:26:49 AM
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I'm astounded that someone with pretensions toward some kind of understanding of international politics would group the struggle of the west papuans alongside the west Australians.

Lets see now... the papuan culture is still very tribally oriented, and while many parts of indonesia are as well, there is no real comparison between the power and sophistication of the two groups - racially, culturally and economically they are two very different people, and one is being utterly subsumed by the other.

What exactly should they do? quit complaining and lie down and take it? Be a good little local culture and get oppressed and wiped out?

It worked fine for the aboriginals, native americans and the majority of native people who had their lands colonised right?

The 'not our problem' argument is one I've advocated in plenty of conflicts, though I'd be interested to see Des Moore's opinion of conflicts such as Iraq and Afghanistan. I'd be happy to go along with an 'its not our problem' approach, but seriously, the conflicts were are involved in are much further away, and except for ingratiating ourselves to the US, they are much less relevant.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 9:56:33 AM
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Des, my understanding is that the WA secession resolution was merely allowed to lapse after the heat of the moment. They were not "denied" as you claim. Furthermore, where, in the UN declaration on human rights is there a provision for some sort of veto, by an existing colonial or majority power, over the legitimate aspirations of a secessionist minority? There is none.

And your assertion that there is some sort of democratic right of a majority to deny the right to self determination of a minority is as offensive as it is ignorant. It is like suggesting that a husband should have a right to deny his estranged wife's right to a divorce. The proof of both a marriage and a national entity is whether it actually works for both parties. Clearly, Indonesia is not working for the West Papuans.

You then go on to imply that West Papuans do not even have a right, if they were to gain lawful entry, to enjoy the same rights of free expression that the rest of us regard as core values. You single out West Papuans as the only migrants who should be discouraged because of the diplomatic consequences of them presenting their side of their story. You need to take a good long look at yourself before trying to take our concepts of rights and liberties back before the days of Edmund Burke et al.
Posted by Perseus, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 10:51:58 AM
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Yes, Des Moore. Violent political activists who entered our country illegally – and stayed, thanks to our pathetic laws – to carry on their anti-Indonesian activities from the safety of Australia.

And yes, indeed. These fake asylum-seekers, as with all such people who sneak into Australia, have left behind them all other Papuans to stick it out.

And the moralising sob-sisters Australia is blighted with don’t think to ask, ‘Hey, if things are so bad in Papua and other countries, why are we not getting fleets of boats coming here?’

Asylum-seeking is the greatest con trick of our age. Asylum seekers are cowards, and it’s good to have a contributor who is not afraid to say so. If people want reforms in their country, they should at least fight for them in that country and not prance about in a safe haven while their countrymen stay at home. Particularly as Australia does not support independence for West Papua anyway
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 11:01:10 AM
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Mr Des Moore,
You have written a list of un-truths, you have been lying to support your unfounded view point.

1) West Australia voted to be part of the Federation, had its act of self-determination; live with it.

2) West Papua has never been allowed to have an act of self-determination;
although their 30 years of preparation for independence and the installing of an elected national Parliament 5/Apr/1961 does tend to suggest that they wanted independence despite any claim of Indonesia that it was 'freeing' them from Dutch colonialism.

3) The West Papuan public has neither acted outside international law, nor taken part in some armed rebellion as you infer. The only illegal action taken by some people has been the kidnapping of people in misguided attempts to get the media to report West Papua's situation to the world. Mark Davis' 1999 documentary "Blood on the Cross" gives a very good account of one such attempt during which the TNI used a Red Cross helicopter to committed the Geselema massacre. But point withstanding, it is still less than one tenth of one percent of West Papuans who have taken part in such unlawfull hostage takings.

The FACT is that self-determination is a universal human right declared in the declaration of human rights, and specifically in the UN Charter and UN General Assembly Resolutions 1514 and 1541 which both Australia & Indonesia voted for in Nov/1960.

West Papua is entitled to self-determination as defined in UN GA Resolution 1541.

You have no right to delay it on behalf of the TNI Generals and their business associates at Bechtel Inc. and Freeport McMoRan who are mining Papua as fast as they can dig it out of the ground.
Posted by Daeron, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 12:08:04 PM
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Des Moore,
Your argument that the good people of Western Australia did not start an armed fight against being forced into being part of the Federation of Australia does not compare with the plight of the West Papuans.
The Colonial States of Australia in the nineteenth century were populated with British Christians.So to suggest that they would fight their fellow Britishers is way of the mark.
The West Papuans are racially,religiously and culturally different to the Indonesians. They have longed to be independent like their kinsmen in P.N.G.
The Australian position now with regard to boat people is somewhat confused.
Any person who illegally arrives in a country, no matter how grieved they migt feel toward their homelands government must accept what ever the host government decides.
If that means that they have to stay offshore,I am certain that it is am improvement on where they were before.
Yes,criminals do arrive illegally,in boat loads.
Will we welcome every Rascal Gang member.
Posted by BROCK, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 1:04:11 PM
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Leigh and Des, what a pair. How does such ignorance get to fester among you and others like you.

People from Iraq who came here were allowed to under our law and the refugee protocol of 1967 which we signed in 1973 which removed all geographic boundaries for refugees and allowed for free movement of refugees without documents.

Claiming that Saddam Hussein could get refugee status here is an absurdity because he would be automatically excluded under article 1F of the refugee convention which covers crimes against humanity. Get a chance and go and read the convention.

The conventions are human rights treaties and don't have a single thing to do with Indonesia's politics.

We sat on our hands complicit in the slaughter of 183,000 of our East Timorese friends and then kept them living in limbo when they applied for refugee status. We have refugees here from Ambon, Aceh, Indonesia proper, West Papua, Sulawesi and other regions - all fleeing the Kopassus.

Not once has the Indonesian government behaved so stupidly and not once have we behaved so stupidly about them. Now though it seems that we hand in Australians to be shot, allow Indonesia to strip the resources of West Papua and starve the people and then try and turn away people our own incompetent DIMA decided were genuine refugees.

I can't find anywhere in the refugee conventions, the ICCPR, the CAT or the convention on the rights of the child that says we have to take into consideration how the Indonesian government feels.

Unless of course you think the 4 year old girl was freedom fighter worthy of being denied refuge.

There are exclusion clauses - we adhere to them rigidly therefore you are wrong about them acting outside the law.

After all the government supported with glee those Iraqis living here who wanted us to blow their country to pieces in the name of "democracy" and we all see what a success that was as the Iraqis here go silent at the despair and destruction. Ditto the Afghans.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 2:01:32 PM
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"The West Papuans ... have engaged in armed insurrection and outside the law."

How such a person ignorant of the facts could reach a high position in the Australian Government would be surprising if it were not for what we know about the Jakarta Lobby's control of DFAT and other key departments. Any objective study of the issue would reveal that the West Papuans have generally chosen a path of non-violence to achieve their political aims such as through setting up the PDP and through diplomatic lobbying. This is especially so since the fall of Soeharto. The OPM guerillas are largely a force of the past and are operational only in very remote regions. I spent two weeks in West Papua and I wouldn't call these people in any way cowardly.

Anyway, by linking the migration law changes to the West Papua issue, the author makes it clear that the changes are designed to make Indonesia happy. Thank God for those moderates in parliament who are able to see through the nonsense.
Posted by rogindon, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 3:05:59 PM
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Leigh, Coach

just admit it, you don't like people who don't who don't look like you (white male im guessing)

It dosn't matter what issue we are debating, you simply have a problem with people that are different to you.
Posted by Carl, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 3:10:38 PM
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"Asylum-seeking is the greatest con trick of our age. Asylum seekers are cowards, and it’s good to have a contributor who is not afraid to say so. If people want reforms in their country, they should at least fight for them in that country and not prance about in a safe haven while their countrymen stay at home. Particularly as Australia does not support independence for West Papua anyway" - Leigh

Come on now, that's just nasty. So let me get this straight - if you had a family, and you were trapped in a violent, dangerous place, you should just 'fight it out' against superior odds? So what exactly? the women and children should take up arms? And in cases where there is mass genocide of a particular people - they should do what exactly? stay behind to 'fight' and die? Leave their babies to death?

My language here is extreme I'll grant you, but so is the plight of plenty of people - or is it only selfish people is safe places who want to leave... maybe no one anywhere is actually being massacred, and those who claim they are are just being selfish.

How dare they right leigh? Presumptious brats should just stay home and cop it.

I sincerely hope you're never in a situation where you're forced to run for your life, though at least it might give you a little taste of what some asylum seekers go through.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 3:54:06 PM
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oh don't worry turnrightturnleft, Leigh will just tell you that 'history is full of do-gooders and bleeding hearts' and your just another one of them

gee its easy living in Australia
Posted by Carl, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 4:05:11 PM
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Personally, I rather like "well-meaning but misguided and soft-centred Australians". It's the ill-meaning but misguided and hard-centred ones who think like Des Moore that bother me.
Posted by chainsmoker, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 5:01:24 PM
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Shouldn't Mr Hussein have the right to a trial before he is found guilty?
Posted by Sage, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 6:18:02 PM
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If we don't harden our refugee laws we will return to the time of the Tampa when boatload after boat load was lined up to enter Australia. We are a soft touch for all the unstables and activists who want to embroil us in their issues. There are a lot of people out there with little to offer apart from their problems who will welcome a chance to reach the security of legal aid that will help them to stay and get a piece of the social security utopia.
Posted by SILLE, Wednesday, 16 August 2006 6:50:11 PM
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Two issues, immigration processes and West Papuans.

Confusing or adjoining the two seriously discourages sensible debate of either.

Re West Papua, each case has been dealt with and resolved, at least in the medium term.

The offshore handling of would be refugees is a deterrent. The point is we are better off deterring an unregulated influx of thousands of economic refugees from anywhere (UK and Ireland included) than leaving them to arrive here only to be repatriated when the lawyers have finished picking over them.

The problem with deterrent policies, when they work, the “problem” does not manifest and thus it is easy for the less visionary and enlightened to denounce its success.

“Mandatory offshore detention” is not just about the people who, foolhardily, attempt to arrive illegally,
It is more about the thousands of others who, knowing the veracity of their claims will be properly tested, decide not to jump the queue and not try illegal entry in the first place.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 17 August 2006 4:46:47 AM
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A VERY IMPORTANT DEBATE......

and we cannot afford to be fuzzi-minded about the issues.

QUOTE:

"What the Government's Pacific Solution is doing is to prevent, where possible, West Papuans (and others) from gaining uninvited and unwelcome entry to Australia - this not because they are being acted against in their country for what they are, like Hitler persecuting the Jews simply for being Jews, but because they are 'acting outside the law', both Indonesian and Australian."

At first I resented Fieldings opposition, then I reflected. Now I agree in principle, but add a very important proviso as follows:

1/We DO have an obligation to compassionately (but firmly) assess those who arrive here. The obligation in my view is to God, not the UN. The old testament is rich in 'careing for the alien and the fatherless' type themes.

2/ We DO have a responsibility to the Australian people to ENSURE that our generosity is not abused by opportunistic lawyers who milk the public purse (Legal Aid) to keep themselves employed by interminably extending the stay of those assessed as 'not' genuine refugees.

Solution:

a) Firm up the Christmas Island reception centre idea.
b) Ensure that it is OUTside the jurisdiction of our normal migration zone.
c) Ensure the speedy assessment (by contacting those from the area the people originated) and either acceptance or repatriation of all would be assylum seekers.
d) Prohibit FORCEFULLY the use of Australian soil for the public promotion of nationalistic or cultural causes. Including the PLO/HEZBOLLAH and even West Papuan Independance by those granted assylum.

CRIMINAL BACKGROUND
One problem with those coming from anywhere, is that we don't know on the surface if they have broken any criminal laws. If they have, they are immediately disqualified from eligability under the UN convention.

In the absence of a fair trial, its difficult to determine this point.

On balance, it behoves us to be kind, but firm in our kindness.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 17 August 2006 8:34:19 AM
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Lets be consistent in our application of tough new immigration laws and treat all persons the same way. Far more tourists arrive by air and overstay their visas than arrive at Ashmore Reef in a leaky boat. The largest number of visa overstayers are British.
Posted by billie, Thursday, 17 August 2006 8:43:22 AM
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I am writing in response to some issues here. Brock pointed out that "The West Papuans are racially,religiously and culturally different to the Indonesians". This is half of the truth i am afraid. More frequently, independence supporters in Australia either left or not tend to view the conflict in a rather binary model between David and Goliath. This picture then is unfortunately inadequate to depicting the conflict. It is rather a simplification of the case into racial antagonism between West Papuan, whom some Australians perceive as racially different to the rest of the population, and Indonesians. On the extreme level, this depiction is exaggerated by blaming the Indonesian government of committing genocide, as mediocre analysis of Center of Peace and Conflict Studies has released in West Papuan matter.

The flaw in this binary model perspective is obvious. The country itself comprises of more than 300 hundred ethnic groups. The term "Javanisation" in conflict areas such as Aceh and Papua are used disparagingly, to put it precisely, which is an expression of hostility toward the centralised government in Jakarta. In other words, it implies the historical context of the conflicts (New Order regime under Suharto). The other important thing is that the fact of Indonesia as multicultural country is often neglected in the discussion, as in West Papuan case.

I am not objecting West Papuan who fled to Australia and speak out about their grief, even if they used a rethorical human rights term genocide. Its absolutely their rights. Many people might think, in a common sense, that democratisation in Indonesia exemplified by robust civil society and installation of democratic institutions, could contribute to solving human rights abuses in West Papua and others areas. Not only West Papuan who have been fighting against injustice in their region but others including poor Javanese whose land were confiscated, Indonesian Chinese people who were culturally suppressed and were economically robbed, and ex-communist members who were politically curtailed have been hoping that things will change together with democratisation.
Posted by zapata, Thursday, 17 August 2006 5:01:22 PM
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Col no matter how many times you write that coming to Australia without a visa is an illegal issue you are still wrong.

The High Court and the parliament have both deemed that the word "unlawful" is only a definition phrase and should be taken out of the drafting of laws regarding refugees or migrants.

All offences for being in Australia without a visa were removed in 1992 and not replaced. Now we have this deluded system where we lock people up without trial or charge, forget to tell them what they can do to claim protection and spend 100's of millions doing it.

As for the lawyers - well the lawyers employed by the government to stop people making legitimate claims or getting a fair hearing have certainly got rich but those who work for the refugees don't get paid at all.

Now it is legal to arrive in Australia without a visa an seek protection.

Got that now? What about you Des you ridiculous illinformed old goat?
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 17 August 2006 7:46:35 PM
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Oh Marilyn, I don’t care about your rambling and slightly deranged opinion, someone arrives here with the expressed intention of avoiding the legally coinstituted migration processes, they are attempting to circumvent the law and are thus acting “illegally”

Dress your delusions up with all the semantics you want.

If they were here legally their “detention” would be illegal. The detention is not “illegal” and thus that confirms their illegal – and immoral – status.

The point is, offshore detention of all illegal entrants is the best deterrent in preventing more illegal entrants.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 17 August 2006 8:32:24 PM
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I'm wondering if this joker Des Moore is just dumb and ignorant OR is he actually trying to knowly mislead readers about the nature the West Papuan situation and struggle (which I don't necessarily support just for the record). So which is it, Mr Moore, dumb or a liar?
Posted by rogindon, Thursday, 17 August 2006 8:33:56 PM
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As Gummow J indicated in Al-Kateb at [86] ff, the current Migration Act, unlike its precursors, does not make it an offence for an unlawful non-citizen to enter or to be within Australia in contravention of, or in evasion of, the Act.

31 Further, as Hayne J observed in Al-Kateb at [207]-[208] the description of a person’s immigration status as "unlawful" serves as no more than a reference to a non-citizen not having a "valid permission to enter and remain in Australia". The use of the term "unlawful" does not as such refer to a breach of a law."

No Col, rant as much as you like but it is not illegal to enter or stay without a visa according to our own high court and our parliament.

Now I have got an answer from DIMA today about a deportation from 2003 that claims ACM guards escorting a young Afghan man on illegal documents to Pakistan travelled without visas and claim it is legal.

How about that? As for the off-shore tripe - the migration act still says that the only place a person can apply for a protection visa for Australia is in Australia, it does not say it can be done on Nauru. In fact it denies people the right to apply for anything at all even if they are refugees.

That is outside the rules as Steve Fielding says.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 17 August 2006 9:47:45 PM
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West Papua, East Papua…

As seen, a very quest for an unstoppable migration to Australia is necessity to multiply number of serving the Anglo-majority’s increasing demand on living standard.

Therefore, enough skilled no-way-out choice-less ready-for-anything-for-nothing generations of under-caste involuntary “volunteers” with minimal-good for a purpose intellectual capabilities might be fitting factually pastoral semi-feudal white Australia.

To what extent do refugees from distant parts of a globe, financially physically and intellectually capable to have reached green continent feed the above expectations?
Posted by MichaelK., Friday, 18 August 2006 12:42:04 PM
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A brilliantly written article by Des Moore

If Australia start giving shelter to barbaric Papuan separatists intent on using this place as launching pad for terrorist action against Indonesian people, then Indonesia has complete right to bomb Sydney and Melbourne and kill Australian citizens just like Israel has the right to bomb Lebanon back to Middle Ages due to existance of enemy organisation Hezbollah in that country.

The Hitlerite Papuan separatists intends to commit ethnic-cleansing against the 1.5 million transmigrant men, women, and children living in West Papua. It is the iron will of the Indonesian people that these uncivilised barbarians be stopped and paralysed according to our laws.

Indonesia wish no ill towards minor neighbour Australia, in fact we couldn't care less if Australia suddenly disappeared tommorrow. However, if Australia, a country established by criminals who committed cruel genocide against the noble Aborigines people, seek to become Indonesia's enemy by sheltering and allowing barbaric Papuan separatists to launch their anti-Indonesian terror attacks from Australia, then we have no choice but to treat Australia as enemy. We Indonesians are strong, brave and proud people, we will not shirk back from a fight if a misbehaving neighbour like Australia wants to seek trouble with us.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Friday, 18 August 2006 2:05:54 PM
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"Indonesian Human Rights Abuses in West Papua:
Application of the Law of Genocide to the History of Indonesian Control" - Yale University Law Wschool report 2004.
http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html/Public_Affairs/426/westpapuahrights.pdf

"Rape and Other Human Rights Abuses by the Indonesian Military in Irian Jaya (West Papua), Indonesia" - Robert F Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights 1999. http://www.rfkmemorial.org/center/vaw_report.htm

U.S. Dept. of State

Human Rights Practices - 2004
Security forces continued to commit unlawful killing of rebels, suspected rebels, and civilians in areas of separatist activity, where most politically motivated extrajudicial killings also occurred. There was evidence that the TNI considered anyone its forces killed in conflict areas to have been an armed rebel. Security forces also committed nonpolitical extrajudicial killings.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41643.htm

Human Rights Practices - 2003
The security forces continued to employ unlawful killing against rebels, suspected rebels, and civilians in separatist zones, where most of the politically motivated extrajudicial killings occurred. There was evidence that the TNI considered anyone its forces killed to have been an armed rebel, particularly in areas where the TNI had announced an operation and told all civilians to leave. The security forces also committed numerous extrajudicial killings that were not politically motivated. The Government largely failed to hold soldiers and police accountable for such killings and other serious human rights abuses.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27771.htm

Fact - the Indonesian authorities have been trying to eliminate the Papuan people just as Nazi Germany did the Jewish during WW-II.

Instead of the Jakarta Lobby people being childish and suggesting Indonesia would go to war if the UN with US support arranged self-determination for West Papua; the people of Australia should discuss what is the more desirable course. Jakarta's continued colonial exploitation of Papua, or causing the UN to resume its decolonization duty in Papua.
Posted by Daeron, Friday, 18 August 2006 10:23:53 PM
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“The point is, offshore detention of all illegal entrants is the best deterrent in preventing more illegal entrants.”

Agreed Col.

If we learnt anything from the Tampa incident, it was that there are many many thousands of people who would make their way to Australia if they thought we were a soft target, as there were at that time, in August 2001.

The decisive policies saw the impending influx drop right away. Thank goodness for that. For if the many thousands that had mobilised from countries on the other side of the world and were heading for Australia had been allowed to arrive, plus the tens of thousands that would then have followed, we would have been in an almighty mess… and our attitude towards asylum seekers would have hardened enormously.

Col is quite right;

“The problem with deterrent policies, when they work, the “problem” does not manifest and thus it is easy for the less visionary and enlightened to denounce its success.”

Strict policies are needed with the whole asylum-seeker issue.

No I am not devoid of compassion. I fully appreciate the desperate circumstances of most of those who have tried to get to our shores. But the answers lie in international aid, not in facilitating movement to Australia outside of our legal immigration parameters.

Let’s also consider the refugees that Australia brings here through its offshore programs within our immigration quota. Onshore asylum seekers displace these people, who are even more needy or asylum.
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 18 August 2006 10:47:08 PM
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http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/2000/10/07/0013.html
Wamena riots of 2000 where the barbaric Papuan separatist terrorists raped and murdered 40 transmigrant women and children

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/papuan062404.htm
FBI indicted barbaric Papuan separatists who cruelly murdered 2 American teachers and one Indonesian teacher, 2002

http://www.library.ohiou.edu/indopubs/1996/03/19/0004.html
Barbaric Papuan separatists kidnapped a WWF research team, murdering two Indonesian members before the hostages were liberated by Indonesian soldiers, 1996

INDONESIAN PEOPLE will never allow the barbaric Papuan separatists to continue their Hitlerite attempt to ethnically-cleansed non-Papuans and we will never tolerate their murderous behavior.

@Daeron:

Dream on, clown. UN already recognised integration of West Papua into Indonesia in two UN resolution based on a completely legitimate UN-sponsored referendum.

If the weakling neighbour Australia try to challenge our territorial integrity, Indonesia will immediately go to war against this enemy country. We will defend every single inch of our territory to the last drop of blood. We will do our best to inflict as much pain and destruction on Australia. Indonesian people will sacrifice ourselves to defend our glorious MOTHERLAND.

DEATH TO BARBARIC PAPUAN SEPARATIST TERRORISTS AND ALL THEIR FOREIGN SUPPORTERS!
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Saturday, 19 August 2006 2:00:05 PM
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PTBI
I'm sure you'd like to join me in the following -all togrether now:
Papua Merdeka ! Papua Merdeka! Papua Merdeka !

& lets not forget...

VIVA INDEPENDENT EAST TIMOR
VIVA FRETILIN
VIVA MAU-BERE PEOPLE
VIVA 28th NOVEMBER
VIVA DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF EAST TIMOR
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 19 August 2006 3:21:33 PM
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@Horus:

LOL, you can rave and delude yourself you want, clown. The cold fact is West Papua is a completely integral part of Indonesia and will always be part of Indonesia forever. Meanwhile, the so-called "country" of East Timor quickly turned into a failed state after being expelled from Indonesia, and East Timor today has the uneviable distinction of being the poorest country in the world.

LONG LIVE INDONESIA! LONG LIVE THE MOTHERLAND! LONG LIVE PANCASILA!

DEATH TO SEPARATISTS AND ISLAMIC TERRORISTS!
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Saturday, 19 August 2006 3:34:01 PM
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PTBI
"DEATH TO ... ISLAMIC TERRORISTS!"
I'll join you in this one at least.LOL
Have a nice day.
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 19 August 2006 3:54:47 PM
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Hello PTBI

Long time no headbang!

I see you haven’t mellowed one iota from our ‘discussions’ some months ago.

Still shouting awfully strong statements at us poor souls on OLO.

Tell me, how’s it working for you? Have you got anyone onside yet, or are you feeling as lonely as ever on this forum??

I might remind you that we had a fair bit of agreement early on in our last ‘discussion’, but that you quickly lost me with the…well there is no other word for it…extremist expression.

Tact and respect will win you support. Polarised and hateful expression will win you dismissal.

For example, instead of writing;

“Indonesia wish no ill towards minor neighbour Australia, in fact we couldn't care less if Australia suddenly disappeared tommorrow.”

Why not just say, ‘Indonesia wishes no ill towards its neighbour Australia.’

I presume you agree with my last post? Or is it just of completely no interest to you, as it is not directly dealing with Papua or Indonesia?
Posted by Ludwig, Saturday, 19 August 2006 4:49:42 PM
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Ludwig

Thank you for your support of view.

To build on your point

"Let’s also consider the refugees that Australia brings here through its offshore programs within our immigration quota. Onshore asylum seekers displace these people, who are even more needy or asylum"

Exactly, pandering to queue jumpers is to turn ones back and sense of fair compassion on those who wait for due process of application to be completed.

Certainly, we must give first and ALL priority to those who act with respsect for our laws and give no place nor encouragement nor comfort to those who pursue illicit means to circumvent the same laws by arriving here illegally –regardless of Marilyn Shepherd’s grandstanding pursuit of semantics.
Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 20 August 2006 9:48:20 AM
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People who support the TNI Generals and their US corporate business partners Bechtel, Exxon, Freeport McMoran etc. often tell lies like "UN already recognised integration of West Papua into Indonesia in two UN resolution based on a completely legitimate UN-sponsored referendum".

They assume people are too stupid to read for themselves what the UN Resolutions actually said. Always happy to help, I give you the URL of a plain text copy of UN General Assembly Resolution 2504 http://fandom.net/InfoKit/Src/unga2504.html
and you should note that it does NOT say any act of self-determination took place, does NOT say either UN GA Resolution 1541 or even the terms of New York Agreement were complied with. It only says neither Indonesia nor the netherlands were objecting to what they did.

At http://fandom.net you will also find a copy of the New York Agreement and you should read what Article 18 says.

Since 1955 when the Netherlands listed West New Guinea as a colony, the United Nations has been under obligation to oversee an act of self-determination; an obligation which it has DELAYED for over forty years while Bechtel & Freeport gut the nation of its gold & copper. An obligation which Indonesia shares since it approved of UN GA Res. 1541 in Nov/1960. It is LONG overdue that we ask the UN to resume its legal obligations.
Posted by Daeron, Sunday, 20 August 2006 6:28:39 PM
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AUSTRALIA HAS AN OVERSEAS SPOUSE QUOTA FIXED AT 30,000 A YEAR
—————————————
"Philip Ruddock gazetted regulations when he was Australia's immigration minister[number S241 of 1997] to stop visitors from many countries coming to Australia and among them is Poland.[Israel is also on the list as well as the following countries-Bangladesh, Burma, Cambodia, Chile, China, Colombia, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Egypt, Fiji, Greece, Hungary, India, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Macedonia, Mauritius, Nauru, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Romania, Samoa, Slovakia, Sri Lanka, Syria, Tonga, Turkey, Ukraine, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Vietnam and Yugoslavia]."

John Howard wants free trade but not the free movement of people.He thinks Australias biggest assets are its sheep, coal and uranium not people.He says he has the final solution to our problems "Too many people."

For more logon to http://nowhiteaustralia.blogspot.com/
Posted by blogggit, Monday, 21 August 2006 12:54:52 AM
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@Horus:

LONG LIVE INDONESIA! LONG LIVE THE MOTHERLAND! LONG LIVE PANCASILA!

DEATH TO SEPARATIST AND ISLAMIC TERRORISTS AND ALL THEIR FOREIGN SUPPORTERS!

@Ludwig:

LOL, in dealing with internal Indonesian affairs such as Papua there is absolutely no need for "Australian support". The opinions of US stooge Australia is irrelevant and worthless like a handful of dust. From back when West Papua returned to the lap of Indonesian motherland back in 1960s until now, we Indonesians decide what happened in that Indonesian province without even bothering with weakling Australia. "Tact and respect" is totally redundant in this matter, especially when dealing with Aussie yobbos, well renowned for their affinity with profanity.

It is just because a resident OLO clown here foolishly suggested that weakling Australia should challenge Indonesian territory, so I am merely doing you a favour by explaining what will happen if Australia committed this error.

"Or is it just of completely no interest to you, as it is not directly dealing with Papua or Indonesia?"

LOL, as I said, we Indonesians couldn't give a rat's arse about minor neighbour Australia.

@Daeron:

LOL, your desperate attempt to play with words is useless, clown. UN in its two resolutions and every country in the world recognise Papua as integral part of Indonesia. Neither UN nor any country in the world ever considered Papua as "disputed territory". There's nothing a clown like you can do to change this situation. Deal with it, lol.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Monday, 21 August 2006 11:07:51 AM
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“ ‘Tact and respect’ is totally redundant in this matter…..”

Well, now why am I not surprised to read this from you PTBI?

“…especially when dealing with Aussie yobbos, well renowned for their affinity with profanity.”

Aha! Tarring us all with one brush eh! We ain’t all yobs. Surely the thing to do is respond tactfully to all, and when some give you cause not to continue being tactful, harden your responses only to those particular people. Can’t you see that polarised views, expressed as a matter of course, just kill your argument and credibility?

Australia has every right to express to Indonesia or the UN or the world its concerns about West Papua. If our two countries are to maintain a friendly relationship, then we will have to be willing to listen to and respect each other’s views.

Howard has listened to Indonesia’s concerns over the granting of asylum to 43 West Papuans. And so he should have. He has not been weak to adapt policy accordingly. The degree of adaptation is a matter of debate, but the philosophy of adapting policy based on any other country’s concerns should not be thought of as a negative thing.

So I totally reject your hardline stance that completely excludes Australia from having any part to play in human rights issues or self-determination issues in West Papua.

I implore you PTBI to work with all people who express concerns… and for goodness sake not just reject their very right to hold and express a view. That is the most terrible position of arrogance, isolationism, antidemocracy, etc, etc, for anyone to hold.
Posted by Ludwig, Monday, 21 August 2006 3:37:39 PM
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@Ludwig:

LOL, as I said, Aussie clowns may uselessly rant and rave until your throat is dry begging for your "opinions" to be taken seriously by us. But rest assured, there is no way in God's earth Indonesia will "give a role" for Australia in our internal affairs.

Deal with it lol.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Monday, 21 August 2006 3:52:05 PM
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Oh you are having fun aren’t you PTBI.

Well, carry on then. Laugh out loud at every single respondent’s comments. Don’t let logic, compassion, balance, humility or anything else of any substance stand in your way. Continue to drag everything to the loony end of the spectrum. Never see anything in shades of grey, only stark black or white. Continue to be an embarrassment to your country. Continue to call for nothing less than death for anyone who calls for Papuan self-determination, or a referendum on it. And so on.

--
Blogggit

After reading your post and looking at your blog, I am still not sure what you are really on about. Do you think that there should be a completely free movement of people in and out of Australia, or that our immigration intake should not in any way be based on similarity in culture, lifestyle or language?
Posted by Ludwig, Monday, 21 August 2006 8:06:33 PM
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Hey bloggit

Are you aware of the LAWS OF DEFAMATION ?

I am going to draw mr Ruddocks attention to the picture in your blog of him, with the 'CHILD MOLESTER' caption.... that is outright illegal and I hope he sues you for millions....

The only thing your blog proves is that Immigration is alive and well as a POLITICAL issue, and why would "Labor" seek to loosen up this area ? *puts thinking cap on*...aah....GOT IT... because traditionally they draw much of their vote from migrant labor ...duh.

So, given that this has been totally politicized, it is in the interests of the Coalition to 'manage' this area in the same way that Labor wishes to, but in ways which benefit the Coalition.

There is widespread ABUSE and blatant opportunism in the overseas spouse aspect of the immigration program and it is RIFE WITH RACISM where certain community elements prefer to marry their own 'race' rather than be open to marraige with Aussie girls (Of various ethnicities)

So, what you are supporting is:

1/ RACIST
2/ OPPORTUNISTIC
3/ ABUSIVE
4/ CYNICALLY POLITICAL.

I'm getting closer to the day and moment when I make immigration and the racist abuse of it a major issue in a campaign of public awareness...I've already started.

Values... compatability...these are the requirements of a sound immigration program.

We do NOT need people who's values allow them to support terrorism.
Specially those from Lebanon, or the Muslim world who are constantly told that whenEVER Muslims are under threat, THEY have to fight for them, even if they are in other countries. And by 'fight' I mean with weapons.
Have CLOSE read of the Hamas charter, it is a diabolical document of the most heinous kind, specifically referring to a total brainwashing of children in education for homicide Jihad.
All who might have a pre-disposition to support it must be BLOCKED from migrating here.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 22 August 2006 6:26:22 AM
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What is interesting, some “ethnic press” informs readers that so far migration process will be provided off Australian shores as Labor defeated Howard government's law draft in the Senate.

That is Australia as it is: leaving in different countries while sitting face to face at the same table somewhere in a “Welfare to work” office…
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 22 August 2006 8:22:51 PM
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What is interesting, some “ethnic press” informs readers that so far migration process will be provided off shore Australia as Labor defeated a Howard government's law draft in the Senate.

That is Australia as it is: leaving in different countries while sitting face to face at the same table somewhere in “Welfare to work” office…
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 22 August 2006 8:24:20 PM
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PTBI
'DEATH TO ... ISLAMIC TERRORISTS!'

A barbaric, unintelligent and temporary solution.
Posted by tubley, Tuesday, 22 August 2006 10:54:13 PM
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@Ludwig:

No need to go overboard with rhetorics, dear German mate. There is completely nothing "extremist" in my posts, it is merely a defence of Indonesia's inalienable sovereign rights to crush terrorism. In upholding this fundamental right, there is no place for compromise or flexibility.

@Tubley:

It is the only way that will work to deal with religious terrorists. There is a reason why there is almost zero Islamic terrorism in Suharto's Indonesia, Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and today's Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, etc. All these countries mercilessly crushed and tortured Islamic terrorist elements in their society. Saddam Hussein committed his atrocities because he didn't have any choice, for a place like Iraq can only be ruled by brute force.

We see once the Americans foolishly overthrew Saddam, Iraq quickly fell into civil war fuelled by religious fanaticism both from the Sunnis and the Shi'ite Muslims. This kind of religious civil war can last for centuries.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Wednesday, 23 August 2006 5:50:23 PM
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Philip Ruddock plans to kill off Australias tourism industry.He has gazetted regulations[without any parliamentary discussion-so much for democracy-he went into Cadaver mode that day] to stop visitors from these 37 countries coming to Australia.If there is Flight Center in Berowra it must be only selling one way tickets out of Australia.

The Blacklist

Philip Ruddock has gazetted regulations[number S241 of 1997] to stop visitors from many countries coming to Australia and among them is Poland.[Israel is also on the list as well as the following countries-Bangladesh, Burma, Cambodia, Chile, China, Colombia, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Egypt, Fiji, Greece, Hungary, India, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Macedonia, Mauritius, Nauru, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Romania, Samoa, Slovakia, Sri Lanka, Syria, Tonga, Turkey, Ukraine, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Vietnam and Yugoslavia].As Poland has joined the EU,Polish people only need an identity card to travel to and work in Britain and Ireland.England which is quite a small country in comparison to Australia, seems to be coping with these numbers and they realise that they have to replace the Ruddocks and Howards that came to Australia[The Ruddocks and Howards came to Australia from England as boat people without any visas].There are no passports for travelling within the EU for EU citizens.It is just like travelling within USA].There is no Polish spouse quota.They can bring their parents and grandparents in also.Britain is the former home of the Polish Government in Exile and many Poles joined in the invasion of Europe in 1944.

More at http://www.nowhiteaustralia.blogspot.com/
Posted by blogggit, Thursday, 31 August 2006 4:31:58 PM
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This is an article from the Sydney Morning Herald.August, 25th, 1997.

"PEDDLERS OF HATE MUST BE SILENCED"

"reactionary bean counters' viewed families as a burden and believed the only people who should be allowed to migrate to Australia were individuals with money.
Australia was simply lucky to get away with those old discriminations but we will not be so lucky again.The world turned on apartheid South Africa.I don't want Australia to become the new world target because racism is allowed to penetrate our political and administritive systems."
[From the outgoing head of the Ethnic Communties Council of NSW.]

More at http://www.nowhiteaustralia.blogspot.com/
Posted by blogggit, Thursday, 31 August 2006 4:36:07 PM
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Down Islamist terrorists and their sympathisers from de-facto neo-racist xenophobic Australia!
Posted by MichaelK., Friday, 1 September 2006 1:33:32 PM
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