Finally OLO has published an article that has given some context to the current conflict. The mainstream media seems to have completley forgotten about the shelled Gaza beach and the consequent upsurge in violence in Gaza. Acoording to the MSM this war started when the Israeli soldiers were captured.

Unfortunatley the internet may be the worlds only hope. The MSM forgets a lot of things. Like the fact that the DoD in the US happens to have misplaced its surveillance tapes showing a large commercial airplane crashing into the pentagon.

The MSM has slso forgotten about the professional demolition of the third WTC building in New York. Nor can they locate one of the many thousands of civil engineers in the country who can explain to us that professioanl demolitions take months of planning, yet somehow, Larry Silverstein, owner of the WTC managed to plan one in only 7 hours.

I do hope the MSM recovers from its short term memory loss problems

Excellent article.

In this atmosphere of blame shifting it reminds us all what every school child (at least in my day) could tell you:

"two wrongs don't make a right".

Answering violence with further violence will only fuel destruction and hatred for generations to come.

This article is long overdue.

Fear is born of ignorance, and there's a lot of it about. For every 'fact' there's a counter-argument; the only rational conclusion is that protagonists on both sides are as inhumane as each other.

Welllll...I see Dr Goebells DID have more offspring spawning this curious 'non-sectarian' blabbermouth who is member of a SECTARIAN group dedicated to keeping alive the memory of the 'Nakba' so called.

Including exiled JEWS from Arab lands ?

Anyway..... his take on the events is in desperate need of scrutiny.

If Israel had done anything BUT formulate a plan to destroy Hezbollah after withdrawing from Lebanon, I would be stunned and regard them as politically stupid.

Anderson did NOT mention that the day of Nasrallah's little adventure was the day before when Iran was meant to respond to the UN re its Nuclear intentions. Biased ? hah !

Here is a little newsflash for the obviously politically and historically challenged author.. EVERY NATION MAKES MILITARY PLANS regarding potential threats.. and if you think Australia does not have them re Indonesia.. you need therapy, then a stint in 're-education camp' with the sole study text being the Old Testament, it makes enlightening reading regarding the area. He might then gain a slight inclination of what lies BEHIND these peoples and events.

This article was a very sloppy attempt to attribute 'evil' to Israel for what pretty much every other government is doing anyway.

If he wishes to make some mud stick, at least make it good mud.

ARMAGEDDON ?

Well that was a good one, but sorry ridicule only works with insecure people.

As I've labored a few times.. PIVOTAL EVENTS in history will make or break the future. Tours in 722.. Vienna 1683 to name but 2 of recent mention.

Ahmadinajad is seeing visions, halucinating about '12 imam'... dreaming and dribbling about 'obliterating Israel' telling us it has 'hit the self destruct button'.... and providing $100,000,000 to Hezbollah (I'm told, I've not seen the bank statements).....each year for .....*think*

Ingredients for Armageddon.

1/ War with Iran, oil is cutoff
2/ China will not stand for that.
3/ China is able to raise 20,000,000 soldiers with reserves. (refer Revelation)
4/ China+Iran defeat Israel, defile the Temple mount.

GAME OVER....MESSIAH COMES ? who can know this side of possible events.

Wonderful balanced article, by someone with absolutely no preconceptions? The authors site:

http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html

Must be viewed in light of the following site, detailing precisely the same event, but from the diametrically opposed historical viewpoint:

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/

So yes I agree, to some extent, one has to rely on the internet to address the chronically one sided news coverage provided by the media, particularly SBS & ABC.

The current attacks are about to increase in severity according to one of the people that wrote the IDF handbook:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292016092&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I have suggested elsewhere that after providing a warning and sufficient time to comply with it, all villages in South Lebanon may now be treated as being entirely hostile. The benefit of which will be a shorter war, which ultimately causes less civilian casualties.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743210.html

In fact, by bypassing defended locales, such as Bint Jbail, while blockading all exits from them, the IDF could then utilise its overwhelming advantage in artillery and aerial bombardment, to critically weaken Hizbollah. The remainder of the forces could then operate freely in the interior of Southern Lebanon, whilst any Hizbollah force that attempted to attack them would have to come out into the open.

Inshallah

2bob

For those who believe that the Palestinian Authority, including HAMAS ministers, are fighting this war out of some sort of solidarity with their constituency, please read this article:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291988137&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Australia was recently caught-out because it did not have "PLANS" for the evacuation of its citizens from Lebanon. Australia has all sorts of plans for all sorts of contigencies. Many of these are military plans. Many are not. Most are top-secret because lives may depend on them. As David_B points out above, Australia has detailed military plans on responses to possible Indonesian Agression, and even First-Strike against terrorists in Asia-Pacific nations.

Colin of course is anti-Jew, in all its hideous forms. Clinging to a supposed 50 year old war attrocity, his stops at nothing to spread his venomous hatred of anything Jewish. Did Dier Yassin happen? Probably. Can Colin fix it? - No.

Colin seeks revenge. Cold, cruel bloody revenge. He supports terror as on means of obtaining this revenge. His goal is the erradication of the state of Isreal, his means is the murder of every Jewish man, woman and child at the hands of the terrorist, preferably by knife.

I have no time for such as Colin.

Narcissist, take your pills. Now!

You know what you doctor told you about not taking them on time.

Of course Andersen thanks the internet. Using it, like anyone else, he can quickly find anything, equally unsubstantiated and unreliable, to justify his anti-Israeli bias.

Do people remember those pesky refugees who came to our shores who asked for our help? They came in peace, came from being terrorised and tortured and what did we do? We locked them up, we whined that they were uninvited, that they would take our jobs and homes. Were we right? No we weren't because not one Australian has ever been evicted or usurped by one refugee.

When one-eyed supporters defend Israel I am yet to detect why that is. Can anyone explain why Israel has the right to steal the land from Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, be told hundreds of times to leave and be unmolested? Remember here in Australia the bull about aborigines stealing our homes? In Lebanon, Palestine and Syria that is exactly was Israel is doing.

Do you support Israel to support the Jewish people alone? I support the Jewish people and always have and cannot detect any anti-Jew sentiment in Anderson's piece, but I also support the Palestinians right to have their land back just as I support the aboriginal land rights here.

61% of the world's Jews live elsewhere and the loudest voices I hear complaining on the BBC and ABC have English and American accents - they are the illegal settlers on someone else's land yet feel that is OK.

Now explain exacly why you think foreigners and Israelis alike have the right to do that when we won't even let the aborigines have their own land without whining like petulant children.

Then explain precisely how anyone could possibly push Israel into the sea and murder 6 million people. We in the west tried that for 6 years yet the Jews survived and multiplied.

Irfan,

Look at the last post above, see where it states:

"Then explain precisely how anyone could possibly push Israel into the sea and murder 6 million people. We in the west tried that for 6 years yet the Jews survived and multiplied."

Narcissist has to take pills?

Perhaps some of those on this forum should perhaps stop taking so many?

Do you think many Australians would appreciate being linked to Nazi atrocities? (especially given that Australia fought them?).

see you tomorrow,

Inshallah (Irf you now know my meaning)

2bob

Mainstream media may not be much good at reporting the news objectively, but it sure is good at setting Australians against one another.

You can find anything to suit your needs on the internet: it is used by all sorts of people, and not all are of sufficient standing to be published anywhere else.

To cut a long story short, Israel was just waiting for an opportunity to do something it had been planning for some time (according to Mr. Andersen and internet writers) and the murderous, cowardly Hezbollah terrorists just happened to give them that opportunity.

It would seem best to reserve our judgement on these claims – they could be right, they could be wrong. But, what is absolutely irrefutable is the fact that Hezbollah terrorists did snatch Israelis and they have attacked and are continuing to attack Israel from behind a shield of Lebanese civilians.

No matter what theories Mr. Andersen and other unknowns put up, Israel is defending itself against attack, just as it has always had to.

"You can find anything to suit your needs on the internet: it is used by all sorts of people, and not all are of sufficient standing to be published anywhere else."

Altogether now, "The first casualty of war is ....."

Unlike the MSM of course, which confines itself to non-partisan, verfiable reporting. It seems many have missed the point entirely - where facts can be manufactured and contexts can be massaged, you need more than one narrative

I doubt any of these warmongers have personal experience of war, in their cowardice they sit as far away as possible. Screaming, death to the enemy, whoever they deem it should be on the day.

When you consider the mass of nuclear weapons in the region and how venomous the factions are towards each other, haven't you asked, why they haven't been used. It may solve the problems quickly.

Think about this all you despots who ignorantly try to make out you know of military strategies. No one knows what happens after a nuclear strike on an oil field or two. They know the effects after conventional strikes, as we saw after the 90's Iraq war. A nuclear strike could set of a mass chain reaction fire of immense proportions creating a thick cloud slowly covering the earth and dulling the sun.

All sides know this possibility, only fools create volatile situations when sitting on top of a potential powder keg of immense proportions. But the fools are determined to push on until someone breaks and it happens. Mind you it won't be one bomb, it will be many.

Israel is stupid enough to start it with one, then have to retaliate with many, Result, no Middle East and no oil, just burning deserts and black dank sky coating everything in oily soot.

Keep up your support fools, you'll get there, you'll create your Armageddon, just to be right. But you won't get the outcome you want, your history shows the followers of god always fail, except for the damage they cause and leave behind.

Israel is in the middle of a fully primed furnace, they all have the match and are itching to use it. It may be your gods just retribution for you all.

Don't worry or jump on your soap boxes, what's written above, is just a fantasy, isn't it??

Those pesky weapons manufactures do not want peace, nor does it really matter to them who gets killed.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/nuclear-bunker-buster-rnep-animation.html

http://corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13944

In short,
ISRAEL: Israel to get U.S. "bunker buster" bombs - report

Israel has been spoiling for a fight, and the good mates of John Howard provide the weapons.

The Lebanese Prime Minister, Fouad Siniora, pleading for a ceasefire, asked: “Is the value of human rights in Lebanon less than elsewhere? Are we the children of a lesser God?”

In 1950, Gustave Gilbert, the US prison psychologist at the Nuremberg Trials wrote:

“One may react to injury or persecution of one’s own identification group with the same pain or hostility as if the injury had been inflicted on him and yet feel no concern for the same injuries inflicted on members of other groups. Thus sentiment could be aroused among Germans over the “persecution” of their Volksgenossen in Czechoslovakia and Austria, with impassioned humanitarian appeals, while many calmly witnessed the beating up of German Jews on the streets of their own cities. In a like manner, “white, American-born Protestants” can patriotically defend the humane “American way” in defiance of dictatorship, while feeling no concern over the mistreatment of racial minorities at their own back door.”

Israel and the US are able to accept the heavy civilian casualties in Lebanon because the Lebanese are not part of the Judae-Christian “identification group” – the Lebanese are indeed “children of a lesser God”!

Gilbert continued: “Many Germans and many Americans, when confronted with these inconsistencies in their professed behavior as decent citizens, recognise the inconsistency intellectually, but still find it difficult to modify their behavior. Insight is not sufficient to overcome the deeply rooted social conditioning of feelings.”
“As a general principle …. the normal social process of group identification and hostility-reaction brings about a selective constriction of empathy, which, in addition to the semi-conscious suppression of insight, enables normal people to condone or participate in the most sadistic social aggression without feeling of realising it.”

**“The Psychology of Dictatorship: based on an examination of the leaders of Nazi Germany”, by Dr Gustave M Gilbert.

There are two moral questions that lead me to decide that in this struggle Israel is in the right, and Hezbollah is in the wrong.

1. Hezbollah, with its suicide attacks and indiscriminate launching of rockets into Israel, deliberatley targets innocent Israeli civilians, whereas Israel only targets muslim civilians guilty of terrorist activities. Inevitably attacks such as these result in collateral damage, but here is no evidence that this is intended by the Israelis.

2. After the end of World War 2, these were two groups of dispossed people in the world, the palestinians, and the ethnic germans who were expelled from eastern europe. The West Germans looked after the german refugees absorbing them into west germany, helping them to migrate to countries like australia, to the point that the camps could be closed in the early fifties. The arabs, on the other hand, despite coming into amounts of oil money previously undreamed of, deliberatley left the palestinins to rot in refugee camps, because they were not prepared to accept the existence of Israel and wanted create a generation opposed to them.

Anti-israelis continue to claim that the palestinians were robbed of their land. Were the palestinians the original occupiers? Or did they steal it from previous jewish landholders?

Plerdsus, there is also the comparison of dispossessed jews from the holocaust and muslim arabs who had lost land after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Muslims hate the jews and want to blow them up yet the jews dont wish to blow up Germany or muslims, they only act in self defence.

We are constantly told by those that should know better that answering violence with violence is not the right way. They have yet to show anyone what the right way is. Holocaust victims tried the non violent approach and it did not work. Israel has found that meeting force with an equal or better force is a better way.

ELIDA, you say Israel has been spoiling for a fight but the evidence is that Iran and Hamas are the ones who wish to see Israel removed, "swept into the sea" and Hezbollah have said they will "write their history in blood".

If I was an Israeli I would be feeling threatened.

Jeff Schubert

Christianity might teach that only Christians can enter the kingdon of heaven and Islam something similar, but Judaism does not. according to Talmudic Law all good people will enter paradise and all people are made by the one and only God.

Trouble is that mediaevel Christianity tried to discredit Judaism by the deliberate misinterpretation of Judaic Law and these misinterpretations exist in Christian minds to the present. They form a basis for anti-Judaism.

Marilyn Shephard

You still seems to hold this primitive hate. The Israelis do not hate the Arabs but they fear them.

Regarding the so called illegal occupation of Syria and Lebenon these were occupied because the occupants tried to destroy Israel and at one stage came close to succeeding. The Israelis are frightened and given the excesses of some Arab based groups in the world - New York London Madrid Bali India so are most of the rest of us.

Israel no longer attacks Egypt now that Egypt has stopped attacking Israel. There is the proof of what is required for peace.

The Israelis have shown that they do not hate Arabs - the treatment of Arab minorities in Israel contrasts very favourably with the treatment of Jews and Christians in Arab countries. In fact Arabs in Israel are actually better off than most of those in Muslim lands. I wish I could say the same for Jews in Iran.

There's obviously a lot more to this conflict than what's being reported in the Western media so the internet can be a valuable resource, if used cautiously.

For example, nobody in our media seemed to notice that the new Ceyhan-Tblisi-Baku (BTC) oil pipeline opened just as the hostilities began - taking oil from the Caspian to the Mediterranean. There's a second pipe that will carry much-needed water to Israel from Turkey.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824

This sort of information can be easily verified and is just part of a bigger picture that we aren't supposed to see.

The internet does provide a lot of false information but most of it can be verified reasonably easily if you keep an open mind and cross-check independent sources.

The alternative is to be a good citizen and believe everything our politicians and media tell us without question, something that many are more than happy to do.

If people had access to today's information resources at the time of Hitler's Reichstag fire, would WW2 still have happened?

Given the response to, and outcome of 911 so far, I regret to admit it probably would.

Knowing or suspecting something to be false isn't enough to make a difference.

My goodness much work 2B be done

Firstly.... 'LOGIC' let me sort out your theology :)

You of all people should know that the means of salvation according to the pentateuch was the covenant relationship with G-D.
People OUTside the covenant, were outside of Gods Grace. If this is NOT the case.. can you please interpret correctly for me this verse (among many others)

Isaiah 46:1-6
The LORD called me before I was born,
while I was in my mother's womb he named me...

"It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore the survivors of Israel;
I will give you as a light to the nations,
that my SALVATION may reach to the end of the earth."

This is clearly MESSIANIC.... speaking of... a 'person'

It is also clear that without the work of 'The Servant' salvation is unknown in the ends of the earth.
Further, if you cannot see that the focus ends up on an individual in Isaiah 53...... "The Lord has laid on HIM (Jesus) ...the iniquity of us all"
etc, then I may have to take you aside for special on going counselling :)

MARILYN.. you cannot work out why people are 'one eyed supporters of Israel'?

If you call supporting a nation against those (Iran,Hamas and Hezbollah) who have delcared in their foundation documents that they intend to have a Nazi style 'final solution' (as opposed to my version which is humane) to the "Jewish_Problem" 'one_eyed' then I may have to divide my time between Logic and you for counselling.

I'm amazed you don't get the connection between 'Iranian money and proxy building, Hezbollah arming itself to the teeth, Hezbollah attacking Isael and Israel getting stuck into them AND their supporters.

NOTE. In every interview with 'INNOCENT' refugees, I have yet to find one who did NOT say "I will fight for Hezbollah or I support them" that, I'm sorry to say is NOT "innocence" that is culpable guilt of the most heinous kind and is being treated accordingly by Israel.

I think the point is the selective use of history used by both Israeli's and Islamists to support continued violence- both use incidents such as Deir Yassin as a rallying point for continuing feelings of vengeance and postponing any possibility of peace. The problem with selecting any point in history is that there is always a precedent, an historical context from which those events arose, so we have to ask when we draw the line? As one of the comments above pointed out, there was a precipitating context for the massacre at Deir Yassin and of course those provocations themselves were a response to prior events. We will never be able to say that either Israel or the Palestinians are ultimately at fault and yet that seems to be the main aim of a lot of the comments here and in the MSM. The creation of the state of Israel was a practical and moral imperative. Now the creation of a similar state of Palestine is also a similar imperative. This should be the main focus - if we cannot approach this in a forward-looking way, not bringing the centuries of pain to the negotiation table then the outlook for us all is exceptionally grim. Unfortunately the US has squandered its ability to act as a relatively impartial broker in these negotiations. This military action seems to me to be a totally unnecessary and tragic postponement of the ultimate necessity of negotiating a peace under the two-state solution.

This morning we read that Hezbollah terrorists not only hide among civilians, but they also fire their rockets at Israel from the cover of United Nations posts, believing that Israel will not dare to retaliate.

Perhaps Kofi Anan would like to comment on that, rather than lambasting Israel as per usual.

The question now is, did Israel accidently or knowingly strike UN observation posts, or was it responding to missiles from area X? Most of us know absolutely nothing about modern weapons, but is it actually possible to distinguish a UN observation post from any other building or redoubt?

It would be much easier to pinpoint enemy fire than it would be to distinguish a UN observation post or any other building at the ranges involved, surely?

"If this is NOT the case.. can you please interpret correctly for me this verse (among many others)"

David Boaz there are countless people who've spent their whole lives interpreting phrases from the bible; is there a consensus YET? You do ask for a lot.

Here's a quote that needs no analysis - "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay." A fine sentiment, don't you think?

"I'm amazed you don't get the connection between 'Iranian money and proxy building, Hezbollah arming itself to the teeth, Hezbollah attacking Isael and Israel getting stuck into them AND their supporters."

The connection's there alright. Palistinian bombs = Iranian backing. Israeli bombs = American backing. The M.E. has been the plaything of wealthy nations for generations - not so long ago it was Russian backing versus US backing - and none have a moral advantage over the another. After generations of conflict all sides have been radicalized. No surprise a mote in your eye and a beam in everyone else's.

"In every interview with 'INNOCENT' refugees, I have yet to find one who did NOT say "I will fight for Hezbollah or I support them" that, I'm sorry to say is NOT "innocence" that is culpable guilt of the most heinous kind and is being treated accordingly by Israel."

Did you expect them NOT to support the only resistance to those killing their family and friends and laying waste to their country? Not one iota of empathy here.

Israel bombs innocent civilians while Hezbollah bombs innocent Israelis. The US, who supplies the bombs and the planes to drop them, has the power to make it stop but doesn't. David I'm curious to know where your moral compass lies, you seem comfortable with such preventable slaughter. I'm not advocating for either side David, in this dirty war both sides are equally complicit.

Overnight the Australian government asked Israel for a window of opportunity to get some desperate Australian citizens and other foreign nationals out of Southern Lebanon and they were told three times by Israel that it would not be protected. Then the Israeli's fired on them.

Leigh I wouldn't believe the right wingers if I was you. Hezbollah are a mere 2,000-3,000 people with mickey mouse rockets that fire them out in the open then go home. It is a tiny country and Israel knows where every launch pad is. There is no way they are firing them from the homes of their neighbours as they might kill their neighbours and I have not heard one report of any Hezbollah killing their friends and neighbours have you? You really need to stop reading the whines of Andrew clueless Bolt and Tim equally clueless Blair.

Not one person has the right to fire weapons on another - it is murder remember? We in the so-called civiilsed west are sitting by watching a massacre that was clearly organised by Israel and the US months and months ago.

Well said bennie, I only commented as I believe the ones supplying the weapons are more guilty than those fireing them.

David you say:" In every interview with 'INNOCENT' refugees, I have yet to find one who did NOT say "I will fight for Hezbollah or I support them" that, I'm sorry to say is NOT "innocence" that is culpable guilt of the most heinous kind and is being treated accordingly by Israel."

In Lebanon which has not declared war on Israel can you expect the refugees to say anything else? How did the Lebanese attain the status of refugee? People have had their houses or businesses bombed, may have had innocent relatives and friends killed or wounded. They are not going to say the bombs have come from a friendly source; so that's ok, are they? Get real, David!!

There is a long history of aggression in the Middle East and to hang onto who is right or wrong, will only ensure that people of all persausions will be killed, and that's a tragedy. An innocent Lebonese person being killed is as tragic as an innocent Israeli being killed.

This is funny:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108435

Some idiot organised an anti-war protest in Haifa, they were stoned by irate Haifa resident's, who came out of their bomb shelters in order to do so.

Hilarious.

Inshallah

2bob

Part One

Adjudicators needed in the Middle East schemozzle.

In the new Israeli-Arab war there is injustice on both sides

Therefore the answer is not to take sides.

The main problem is that the US has rendered the United Nations, the only global means of an ethical questioning of the problem - rendered it obselete through the use of an outmoded veto, one of a pair which was allowed in the UN during the Cold War, one for the US and the other for the Soviet Union.

Thus America, which since the end of the Cold War has prided itself as the haven of global justice, has used the veto to prove that it prefers not to discuss the US attack on Lebanon. The US has also landed a further shipment of arms to further Israeli attacks. We therefore suggest that never before in this world, has Immanuel Kant’s idea of a Global Federation of Nations been so much needed.

Konrad Adenauer, first Chancellor of post WW2 West Germany who so much supported the principle of a democratic federation of nations, was also nstrumental in arranging the change from the League of Nations to the United Nations. Furthermore, Adenuear, now deceased, would doubtless fully agree with the need for a very strong democratic federation of nations right now.

In the Middle East we have the two main contestants, firstly Israel strongly supported as well as monetarily supplied and heavily armed by the United States (including nuclear rocketry) - and secondly, neighbouring Arab nations, including Syria and Iran, totally forbidden to be supplied not only with atomic weaponry, but also with up-to-date planes and tanks.

Part Two
In the US itself, we also have strong support for Israel from zionist lobby groups, as well as from the ultra-right wing fundamental US Christian church, with a strong spiritual message about a second coming of Christ, who will also bear the tidings that the Jews have been forgiven for their killing of Christ on the Cross.

On the other hand with Israel, we do have the threat to a small nation which has been given the right by a former stronger UN to settle in Israel, the old Biblical Jewish Promised Land.

But it must be remembered that though Israel does have the right to arm and protect itself from Palestinians who have long refused to recognise the existence of a new Israel, the allowance of atomic long-range artillery was certainly not part of it. Further, this allowance of nuclear Israeli defence is certainly the main reason that Iran would go nuclear.

With a new UN, a very strong permanent force, comprised of European Nato, as well as Russian, Chinese and Indian forces, not necessarily, American, British and Australian, could be the answer.

But the real answer for an America who has proven with Iraq that she will make major military moves without question, is to rebuild the UN without the US and her allies, Britain and Australia. It will not start a major war, because it will probably make America go isolationist once again, hoping she will come to her senses and play fair, because that is what the Middle East needs so much after so much intrusion and injustice from major Western power groups, especially regarding oil. It also could be surprising how little Israel could so easily fit in

@ Bennie and Ant

Bennie, interpretation of those verses boils down to pretty much one thing or the other.

It refers to the Messiah or the Nation but in either case the goal was universal Salvation. Christians are adamant that this applies to Christ, Jews generally see it as the Nation. I was just raising it for Logic's sake.

My Moral compass ? Well, on a personal level I identify with your quote about 'vengence is mine, says the Lord' but this also needs to be contextualized etc..

My compass is firmly on Christ, but if you look closely at most of what I put forward, it is either blatantly 'Bible/Christianity based' or.. based purely on observations of history. I see what works and what doesn't.

The solution I offered for the Arab Israel conflict (in other posts/threads) is a sound one based on history. As a Christian I really don't have any other solution than all embracing Christ as Savior and Lord....but somehow I don't think that one will have legs with many here :) or the Jews or Muslims in the ME.

The concept of defeat, deport, disperse and absorb is sound in human terms and would minimize the on going suffering. So, I see it as compassionate. I am ABSOLUTELY for responsible ethnic cleansing when on going perenial conflict exists.

I would have allowed all the Albanians to be removed from Kosovo, (but not in a violent murderous way) and would have them re-settled in Albania. (along with those Muslims from Montenegro)

I'd move and resettle the Muslims of Bosnia also. When the noble righteous nations criticized me, I'd remind them in no uncertain terms about how THEY stuffed the world up with arbitrary borders based on self interest and Empire. !

I'm for selective immigration too... responsible, positive discrimination I call it.

Needless to say, I won't be applying for the chair of the Human Rights committee at the UN, but I would like to be Immigration Minister for Australia. I'd like some input on education also.... to bring some history into the syllabus.

If I could be selective about immigration I have to say that David Boaz would never be allowed entry and he would never be allowed to teach revisionist history in any of my schools in my country.

Overnight an organised group of media and rescue crews drove south of Tyre to rescue some sick and hurt civilians and many Australian citizens. Halfway to their destination the Israeli's said they could not continue, so I guess the people they were trying to save will be allowed to die or will be murdered by the Israeli's. Howard says this is OK as the Hezbollah are terrorists.

How are the babies terrorists? The old people, the women? The sick and maimed? These are terrorists?

Or were the gangsters bombing them the terrorists? The terrorists who flattened entire villages - we talk of Haditha looking like My Lai - tonight on my screen I saw My Lai in the Mediterannean.

Village after village, civilian after civilian - smashed. They are not terrorists, they are just people.

Howard lauds one deluded Jewish boy killed while invading a foreign country as an Australian hero even though he was fighting illegally in Lebanon - yet he says our Lebanese citizens must not be rescued because Israel will not allow it.

Someone find a way to justify such evil.

2bob - you wrote:

"This is funny:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108435

Some idiot organised an anti-war protest in Haifa, they were stoned by irate Haifa resident's, who came out of their bomb shelters in order to do so.

Hilarious.

Inshallah

2bob"

Do you really think that is hilarious? Whatever side someone happens to be on, no sane person would find any part of this horror hilarious.

There is something seriously wrong with you.

tao, I think you're being too hard on 2 bob watch. I think he should be thanked for that link to the article about that courageous anti-war protest in Haifa. I hope everyone reads it because, if one goes by the Zionist propagandists that infest OLO essays on the ME, one might get the mistaken impression that the views of Olmert & Co are the views of all Israelis. I know that not to be the case and applaud those Israelis who can see clearly through the fog of propaganda in which they live and call for a ceasefire and negotiations. Please, 2 bob, more such links. They give us hope.

And I meant it. What halfwit thought they should stage an anti-war rally in a city that is under constant bombardment? How did they imagine the Haifa resident's, who have been forced to live in bomb shelters for weeks, would react to the suggestion that Israel was to blame, and that Hizbollah should be allowed to live peacefully whilst they shell their city?

I find it incredibly funny that these ars*holes think that the Israeli police force was going to save them from the impact of their own stupidity, meted out by the ordinary Israeli citizen.

I don't find it funny that Haifa (or anywhere else in Israel) is being bombarded, but I do find it funny that 26 members of Hizbollah (armed) decided to try and sneak back into the town where they ambushed Israeli forces yesterday, and were shot to rags. I find it incredibly amusing that none were taken prisoner,.

I find it amusing that Hizbollah shot five of its most expensive weapons for the first time, at the cost of its launcher and of its operator's, in order to punch a series of holes in vacant land.

I find the stupidity of the media astounding when they credit Israel with shelling a convoy with the mortars which would be well outside the range of where the convoy was struck.

Finally I find it hysterical that Hizbollah sought a fight at this time, which makes no sense.

read this regarding proportionality:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281724,00.html

Inshallah

2bob

What a mensch!

My dear deceased friend was a "Rat of Tobrook". He always said: "Never ever trust any Middle Eastern Country - and if any of them come on our shores - they will take over Australia".

Perhaps the author needs to experience the total rejection as experienced by Israel to fully understand their response to terrorist aggression.
His antipathy towards Israel leaves one breathless.

Strewth,

You will be pleased to know there have been a few protests:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/isra-j28.shtml

Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa, and outside the Prime Minister’s house.

The first conscientious objector has refused to comply with an emergency order to report for reserve duty in the Palestinian territories.

For those who think the Israelis might have made a mistake bombing the UN post:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/libe-j27.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/bern-j29.shtml

I repeat – there is something seriously wrong with 2bob – there is nothing to find in this which is funny and his comments indicate how sick he really is.

Mr. Anderson is determined to see the conflict through the tired old lens of "another variation of the clash between a European colonial-settler movement, in this case Zionism, on the one hand, and an indigenous non-European people, the Palestinian Arabs, on the other." http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4116

Growing up surrounded by that ideology (inspired by the temperament that hates revealed religion, with Marxist intellectual support) I read from the same script for a long time, the one about Crusaders being merely booty seeking murderers, the Conquistors wiping out a whole continent of people with their lust for gold, the Judeo-Christian heritage of the West one big pile of mistakes of aggressive colonization.

If I'm wrong and Mr. Anderson really does care for the Palestinians then I'll find a significant proportion of his polemic will be directed against Jordan and King Hussein for its killing and expulsion of thousands of Palestinians ('Black September') after the explosion of terrorism by the PLO from their bases in refugee camps.

And against Iraqi Muslims who have expelled more than 4000 Palestinians from Baghdad.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/4

And against Mohammedanism itself with all its vicious open ended injunctions to kill Jews and unbelievers. He'd have to find some way of explaining away the effects of jihadis and muslim sympathy with them, because it is this that causes much of the misery in Palestine.

He'd start thinking about the strange association of Marxist tinged lefties and Islam (Judeo-Christianity is an annoying impediment to the dream of a socialist utopia and to Muslims and their pan Islamic state)
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Ohmyrus41103.htm

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

The lesson of Karl Radek and the Comintern would be a good one to learn before getting into bed with the latest totalitarianism – Islam.

Isn't it really the case Palestinian muslims are ashamed they can't form a state as quickly and orderly as the Israeli's did? Billions of dollars of aid, peace deal after peace deal. After fifty years isn't the victim mentality and Hamas all they have to show for it

wobbles,

Thank you for the link.

I agree with you that "nobody in our media seemed to notice that the new Ceyhan-Tblisi-Baku (BTC) oil pipeline opened just as the hostilities began - taking oil from the Caspian to the Mediterranean. There's a second pipe that will carry much-needed water to Israel from Turkey."

I knew nothing about it but then I am not surprised because I figure that our news is heavily edited.

I am not impressed with Aus troops being asked to go over as peacekeepers as our army is currently stretched to the limit.

I recomend that others check out the link provided by wobbles.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824

In his book, “Hitler: the pathology of evil”, psychologist George Victor – who emphasized that he was writing as a “a Jew” – wrote about people who “embraced the position of victim, felt outraged, and took vengeance – a pattern that wrecked their lives and their lives and the lives of their families”. This, he wrote, “helped me understand the Third Reich”.

In a passage that might well apply to the psychology of many present-day Jews and to Israel, he wrote:

“Germany was seriously harmed after World War I – a victimization to which its leaders and people submitted, although Germans remained highly conscious of the victimization and outraged over it. Even more important, however, was Germany’s long history of victimization. While Americans have thought of Germany as a warlike, predatory nation, its history was the opposite. … Germans were the victims of many invasions, some of which decimated the population. That history made Germany a fertile soil for Hitler’s message of victimization, outrage, and vengeance.”

British Foreign Office Minister Kim Howells has said: "If you're chasing Hezbollah, well, chase Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation, and that's the difference," he said.

Are Israel’s actions Lebanon largely “vengeance” for past injustices, driven by a feeling of “victimization”, rather than a balanced reaction to the actions of Hezbollah?

Jeff Schubert’s book, “Dictatorial CEOs & their lieutenants: the cases of Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Ataturk, Mussolini and Mao”, will be released soon.
More at: http://www.jeffschubert.com/

Still no word from our Onliners about America's right to use an out of date veto granted to her and the Soviets as the right of the two major powers during the Cold War.

As it has not been mentioned, we might wonder whether most of our group don't know much about it. The truth is that right now it is the most deadly undemocratic tool we have in foreign relations, especially as it gives the US almost the same rights as Rome had over her empire. Also probably our Brit forefathers had the same during their empire.

Possibly John Howard would not know, especially as they say he has political knack but not a strong sense of history?

Bushbred,

I wouldn't place a too heavy emphasis on the veto powers in the UN. Obviously the security councils structure is outdated, considering there are no permanent members representing some of the most populous parts of the world (Africa, South America, South Asia). But effectivley anyone can veto a UN resolution, no one has to listen to the UN. The very title 'United Nations' is just a pipe dream, but I believe its a pipe dream well worth having, otherwise we may as well give up and start nuking each other.

2bob,

Your use of the phrase 'refo scum' shows what sort of bigot you are. The large majority of people on this forum express whatever views they have within certain boundaries of decency. If you want to spit hate filled racist rhetoric find somewhere else to do it.

Well 2 bob I would be happy to have such civic minded citizens living near me and probably do. How shockingly awful to provide social services for poor people.

Aka, you mention a pipeline taking oil from Caspian to the Mediterranean, then second pipe to carry water from Turkey to Israel. Turkey damned the rivers that flow from the snow-peaks of Turkeys mountain ranges, down to the sea in Iraq. Who is depriving whom of water, the necessity of life.

Short while ago, great fuss is made over dam in S.W. Qld, depriving the Darling River System of much needed water. Would not the same principle apply here? Grab while the grabbing is good, by force if need be.

Who is asking Australian troops to be peace keepers, in this latest fray?

After all of this for close to sixty years we all understand it now ....... all Palestinians need to be grovelling, servile non entities for another fifty years. In recapping my thoughts again it is simply this and we get this message loud and clear.

We see the state of Israel, the inventor of modern terrorism, blatantly using every conceivably devious means to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people. You name it, they have done it, and all sanctioned, although fundamentally illegal by any standards, by the Israeli state, and continuously growing more brutal more vile by the day......... theft of land, theft of water, theft and vandalism of crops and ancient groves, demolishing and vandalising of ancestral houses, dwellings, religious centres, schools and looting, and in one month more than 3800 being rendered homeless, of whom many are refugees since 1948, raiding of bank accounts, divisions and hermetically sealing off villages, of workers from workplaces, sniper incursions, premeditated murder of innocent children, aerial intimidation and attacks, a prolonged assassination policy, a massive number of abductions of especially children, incommunicado detentions, assaults and torturing, a dehumanizing, scheming media, untold violations of international laws and with impunity, ....... and the list goes on, and on. e.g. On June 9th, Israeli gunboats opened fire on beach-goers in Gaza as the latest pretext for ongoing, unspeakable violence.

What is a degrading thought is how our hopelessly biased media seeks to make us complicit in this scheming. trauma-engineered diet of shocks and barefaced denials from a vile Zionist outfit that sees the Zionist state now as being the object of worship with the return of the worship of the golden calf.

If one were to design the Middle East from scratch as at 2006, the last place a sane person would plant a Jewish state would be where it is now. But it's there, settled by 6 million mostly sane and ordinary people, ratified in their habitation by the United Nations, with a succession of democratically elected governments prepared to peacefully and reasonably settle differences with its Arab neighbours. Arafat's PLO continually deferred settlement in the vain and silly hope of a political miracle that would give dispossessed Palestinians back the keys to their parents' houses. The response from Hamas and Hezbollah has been suicide bombers and rocket attacks with the ultimate purpose of the annihilation of the Jews. All of them. Not just a village-full. Under their sick theocratic ideology, death is glory and all their dead are martyrs. But the dead can't fire off rockets, so their fighters mingle with the innocents in order to guarantee maximum martyrdom, death and maiming of innocents and outraged sympathy from people who have little conception of what it is to live under constant and immediate threat of murder.

No nation would fail to act with force if attacked from within its neighbour's borders. How many Australians would be prepared to say of a rocket attack on Darwin from a Jemah Islamia encampment in Timor, "Aw, let the buggers knock us over until they get tired of it, we wouldn't want to risk offending anyone"?

So in the short term, much 'collateral' harm is done by Israeli bombardment of Hezbollah positions in Lebanon. But eventually the Arab nations and maybe even the United Nations might see clearly enough that the cost, and the risks in letting the Israel-haters continue to operate are greater than the risks of disowning and disarming them, and do something. To help save Lebanon from the religio-political cancer eating it from the inside, and the need for Israeli surgery, from the outside. That is, if too many Colin Andersens don't get in the way.

So, the Israelies with the full support of the Americans - and the Australian Government follows along dutifully - dont want any ceasefire until all "enemies" are gone and no more threat exists.
.
Really! What kind of diplomacy is that?
.
Would the Grownups be happy if the kids at Uni used these techniques in a debating class? - simply Kill everyone on the opposing side, and then you win!
I dont think so.

KEIRAN SAID:

"We see the state of Israel, the inventor of modern terrorism, blatantly using every conceivably devious means to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people."

and...where might they have learnt this ?

Ahah...*thinks*....read some history K... Banu Qurayza, a tribe of Jews fighting for their lives, surrendered to Mohammed (so called Prophet) and he rewarded their surrender with carving the heads of 600-900 males and enslaving LITERALLY all the women and children.

Amrosi, one of the Indonesian Bali Bombers yelled out 'REMEMBER KHAIBAR YOU JEWS' so.. Keiran.. do YOU know what happened there ? do you know where it is ? why would Amrosi in 2005 mention something so long ago ? why ? hmmmmm *thinks*.. maybe just MAYbe, such events are drilled into the Muslim mind as evidence of its triumph over 'The Jews' etc... to inspire them to heroic deeds of blowing up the 'Infidel Westerners' in Kouta etc......OR...in Northern Israel.

For the record, speaking of 'humiliation of a whole race of people'.. the Jews were 'allowed' to remain on 'the' property (formerly 'their' property) as long as they gave 50% of the produce in Tax to Mohamed and became humiliated dimmis.

CANA (Qana)..What was the most significant event to occur ever in this village ? Was it the tragic deaths of 60 or so women and children in the bombing yesterday ? (where....were the men ?) No, the most important event was this "He turned water into wine" 2000 yrs ago.
A man who without bomb or sword, or gun or weapon, impacted history so greatly, by the power of His Word, that today we reference our whole history to Him.

He never hid behind women or children to avoid capture or to use them for propoganda, he said "For this purpose I have come". After declaring that the only thing waiting for Him in Jerusalem was 'death', he 'set his face like a flint' and pressed on to that fate.....for us.

Jesus survived a public policy of extermination of ALL children of a certain age. Brutality is nothing new in the Middle east.

Well said Skeptor

I repeat.. re Cana/Qana.. 'Where were the men' ?

Aussiefella.... in your words I hear echo's of Neville Chamberlain.

Your kind says:

"Oh..its JUST the Sudetenland ...won't effect us...."

"Oh..Its just the anexation of Austria... won't effect us..."

"Oh..Its JUST Chekoslovakia...won't effect us....."

"Oh..Its JUST Poland...... won't effect us....."

But funnily enough....it did.

2006 "Oh, its JUST the capture of a couple of soldiers and murder of 8 others.... won't effect us"

"Its JUST a few Qassam rockets from Gaza and JUST a few Katushyas from Lebanon... wont effect us."

Just as the 3rd RIECH was to last a 1000 yrs, and we under its Jackboot, and every Jew on the face of the earth to be murdered....
So Hamas and Hezbollah have it down in black and white.. similiar sentiments of the destruction of a nation and its people.
Substitute 'Islamic Caliphate' for '3rd Reich' and you have the moral equivalence.

Read of the events of the Macabees, of the Jewish struggle at Masada, or the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70, of the total exile of Jews in 135 by the Romans, read read read... become informed, then perhaps you will no longer be ignorant of history and condemned to make the same mistakes.

Your sad appeasement, your misplaced compassion, your misdirected logic, your twisted sense of reality, are the last thing we need when tomorrow 13 men go on trial in MELBOURNE for alleged plans to assassinate our Prime Minister and his FAMILY ! repeat HIS FAMILY... in the name of ISLAM.

So, of course.... it won't effect us.

The Oilman Behind the Curtain - Part 1

Occasionally one stumbles over a simple life-changing realisation. This happened to me when out of curiousity I Googled "Iraq Haifa pipeline" (no quotes). I beg fellow truth-seekers to do the same. There are 192,000 references.

As well as articles from stalwart publications like Jane's,

http://www.janes.com/regional_news/africa_middle_east/news/fr/fr030416_1_n.shtml

I came upon a link that pre-dated the official creation of Israel itself, written in 1947.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1947/01/oil1947.htm

To read this article fully, is to be transformed. It was written before we were burdened with the baggage of the Jewish homeland, the PLO, rampant Zionism, Hezbollah, refugees - the whole catastrophe - nay, the MYTHS that have plagued and killed us ever since. It was written years before King Hubbert brilliantly predicted that US oil would go into terminal decline. It was written when Great Britain was still the king of oil and the US was the "Saudi Arabia" of world oil supply.

This article, free of any such constraints, points out correctly that the natural embarkation spot for Middle Eastern oil is the port city of Haifa. Don't take their word for it. Just get a map and see for yourself. It's perfectly logical if you want to distribute oil to the US, Britain and Europe. Factor in the cost of transportation and the security of supply. Simple, oui?

To Boaz and everyone else:

The Ten Commandments ('Thou shalt not murder',etc.) are written in the Old Testament of the Bible in the Book of Deuteronomy, Chapter 5. Just two chapters prior, you will find this:

Deuteronomy 3:3-5

So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them - the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city - men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

And only two chapters following the Ten Commandments, this:

Deuteronomy 7:1-6

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations - the Hittites,Girgasites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you - and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

The Oilman Behind the Curtain - Part 2

Now read this from The Guardian, 2003:

"In 1975, Kissinger signed what forms the basis for the Haifa project: a Memorandum of Understanding whereby the US would guarantee Israel's oil reserves and energy supply in times of crisis.

Kissinger was also master of the American plan in the mid-Eighties - when Saddam Hussein was a key US ally - to run an oil pipeline from Iraq to Aqaba in Jordan, opposite the Israeli port of Eilat.

The plan was promoted by the now Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and the pipeline was to be built by the Bechtel company, which the Bush administration last week awarded a multi-billion dollar contract for the reconstruction of Iraq.

The memorandum has been quietly renewed every five years, with special legislation attached whereby the US stocks a strategic oil reserve for Israel even if it entailed domestic shortages - at a cost of $3 billion in 2002 to US taxpayers.

This bill would be slashed by a new pipeline, which would have the added advantage of giving the US reliable access to Gulf oil other than from Saudi Arabia.

(more to come, if the robot doesn't cut me short)

Sorry Chris, I interrupted your post! Yes the robot will cut you off, because you're only allowed to post twice per 24 hours for each article, up to a maximum of 5 posts per 24 hours total..

As a courtesy, allow to me to continue you for you..

The strategic supply of oil is the absolute underlying reason for all of this, even more than religion. It sounds very obvious of course, but lots of people still talk about silly little details like soldiers being captured and list these as the reasons!

In recent years since the fall of USSR, it has been a major strategic objective of American and European oil companies to secure the supply of oil from the Caspian Sea area to the Mediterranean, where it can be shipped or pipelined to European and Asian markets. The inauguration of the Ceyhan-Tblisi-Baku (BTC) oil pipeline, which links the Caspian sea to the Eastern Mediterranean, took place on the 13th of July (only two weeks ago, and only one day before the Israeli air strikes on Southern Lebanon).

The Americans and Israelis have been preparing for a war with Iran for quite some time and have just been waiting for the right moment to get it rolling. Iran is surrounded by American bases and Israel is rearing to go. Israel is also trying to drag the Europeans into it by encouraging NATO to get involved.

As for Australia, our country has been purchasing tanks and equipment suited to desert warfare (unsuitable for scenarios involving jungle, for example to our North). Note these are not intended to protect the Great Sandy Desert in Central Australia.

Marilyn Shepherd you are a breath of fresh air, this site has been clogged up with nutters who only see the world through "Israeli Eyes" have you noticed the Media always use the Word Israeli when they should be saying Jews, and they say Muslim when speaking about a Australian who is a Muslim. it would be fair to say every Jew in Australia has two passports , I have never met one who does not have a Israeli/Jewish passport, Boaz David. Leigh and 2bob and their other one eyed mates on this thread have been indoctrinated , anyone can see where they get their information to form an opinion, Maralyn if you go to the"Jew Watch site", then go to "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" you will understand the cause of their hipocritical views posted on every thread that opens the window of opportunity for them to continue their vilification of Muslims, they will tell you God has ordered them to build a Temple on the Holy Mount, only insane people could propose this kind of crime against humanity, we have to stop them if we are to avoid world war three, we need to protect the Jerusalem Mosque from the Jewish demolition squad,
mangotreeone

Aka,
It’s ALWAYS been about oil and pipelines.
There are vast reserves in Central Asia that must be piped through the Middle East to meet China’s growing energy needs, otherwise the global price would increase.

Pipelines are notoriously vulnerable to attack and are dependent on sympathetic governments being in power.

The US was in direct partnership with the Taliban to build a pipeline from the Caspian across Afghanistan to Pakistan. It was under way but was stalled when the Taliban refused to accept all the conditions, so there were invasion plans made prior to 911.
These plans were no secret and were in the public domain at the time.

Likewise, after Iran cut off the direct oil supply to Israel in 1979 the Mosul-Haifa pipeline (Iraq to Israel) needed regime change in both Iraq and Syria to be reopened.

Now it seems that certain interests are trying to provoke a (pre-demonised) Syria into entering the conflict and resolving the issue.

Israel’s water problem is also an important factor in modern political events.

Is it a fortunate coincidence that all US Presidents for the last 40 years (except Carter, who stopped the construction of all new nuclear power stations) come from oil states or have direct backgrounds in the oil industry?

Constant meddling in the internal affairs of sovereign nations plus the propping up of oppressive regimes by the West is the prime motive behind terrorism.

The quasi-religious and political aspects to all past and current events in the Middle East are just window dressing to distract from what the real motives are and have been since the beginning of the 20th century.

Life is cheap but oil is important.

EV , I applaud you,,
When I read the scriptures written by people who belong to the top end of town, I have to wonder who invented their God, that tells people to steal land and kill people, the creator of the Universe is not racist, if God had wanted humans to kill we would have claws and fangs, I dont believe for one minute that God gave anyone Ten Commandments. maybe Ten Promises and they were changed by King Solomon to suit the "Grab for land policies of his high priests, if you break a commandment you have to be punished twice, here and now, and in the next life ,if you break a promise you dont have to be punished, when you weigh up all the alternatives, you can see how the commandments have been used as a excuse to murder,crucify, every word/line in the Bible has come from the pen of some rich aristacrat, who in turn had to get approval of the commanders of his freedoms, Kings ,Presidents and Dictators, inventers of the angry racist God should be made to call on this God to come down to earth, to prove they are not lying bastards, I am certain God exists, and that God loves every human being good or bad, that God knows there are many insane people who invented a God, to enslave peoples minds, any investigation into the life of King Solomon will no doubt prove this is the case, he even invented the Devil, we need to think like grown ups not children living in cuckoo land, then maybe we will understand the reason for the creation of Israel and the reason they act like King Solomon did , in his time you were killed if you were a none Jew and failed to do as commanded, the American people have to slave to pay taxes so $32.000.000 can be given to Israel everyday to buy tools to butcher none Jews, is that not how it was in Solomons time, nothing has changed, mangotree

I am glad to be disparaged by one who believes in the apocryphal 'Protocols of the Elders of the Temple of Zion'. This bizarre book was originally prepared by the Tzars secret police, in order to support pogroms, then utilised by such wonderful groups as the Nazi's & the USSR to justify their policy direction. Thank you for distancing me from it.

Tao, Yes, there is a nicer way to describe a group which raises funds for a community which supports Hizbollah? Under current Australian law, any person which raises such funds, without preventing, or even not caring, if those funds are being used in any way to support a Terrorist group have committed a crime, which I believe is imprisonment for life. I am sorry, did you say that you supported them?

Keith, how did Israel start the current cycle of violence?

Qana/Kana the building was struck by the IAF at approximately 12 midnight, then collapsed after a second explosion at around 7 am. The IAF has released pictures of rockets being fired, then the culprits running into this building prior to the strike, which makes the building a legitimate target.

The problem is that it is unlikely that anyone will be able to investigate the cause of the second explosion, which caused the building to collapse, some several hours after the attack, and after the structure was presumably solid enough to stand that everyone went back to sleep. I don't think that the Hizbollah would really like this to be investigated too closely.

Inshallah

2bob

2 bob

you are a bigot.

Boaz you are a trifle confused I think - the people arrested in Melbourne have not been charged with wanting to kill our PM and his family, that was Canada for pete's sake. Why would anyone bother to assassinate anyone as boring and mindless as John Howard.

It is said by Israel that the civilians they are murdering are really being murdered by the Hezbollah but fail to tell us just how this is, where is the evidence of those weapons in the houses or explain just why the Lebanese men would endanger their own children in that way. We heard the same about the evil and inhuman Iraqis and have sat by while we murdered over 100,000 of them.

We heard about tunnels in Iraq like in Lebanon - they didn't exist. The red cross and journalists who arrived in Qana found no evidence of any weapons.

2 bob, you are beyond belief that you write such vile filth. I believe if a muslim wrote what you do they would be charge by Ruddock with incitement to violence yet you get away with it. Why is that do you think except for the entrenched racism of John Howard.

The babies who could not leave Qana were not being used as shields by their parents - the parents were just too poor to leave and this atrocity by the Israeli's is monstrous.

Marilyn,

The current ceasefire is supported by Israel in order to get to the bottom of what exactly happened in Khafr Kana / Qana. It is known that the Israeli strike at midnight did not cause major structural damage, but what is unknown is what caused the explosion & collapse of the structure at ~7am.

As Hizbollah and the Lebanese Government have stated that only civilians were in the structure, and that no weapons/explosives were in there either, this secondary explosion must have been caused by a second attack on the structure, whether by Israel or by Hezbollah.

I suggest only that this lull in the fighting be used to fully investigate what actually caused the second explosion, the consequent collapse of the structure and the deaths of the civilians, preferably by a non-aligned party (I suggest Finland, Germany or Canada).

As no explosives were in the building, if the explosion was caused by explosives on the ground, they must have been taken there for a purpose.

If it is established that this is the case, where does that put Hizbollah, Lebanon & Syria? Perhaps they should not have sought to manufacture a cause celebre, because it seriously looks like backfiring, destroying for all time the credibility of these terrorists.

Yala ya Nasrallah yidfok ochah inshallah

There are more than two ways to skin skunks

Inshallah

2bob

Marilyn,

IR footage of Hezbollah firing rockets from the target area of Qana can be found on the CNN site http://edition.cnn.com/

Hezbollah knows only too well that once you start firing from a position it becomes a legitimate target. Israel struck at what was shooting. A number of hours later, a secondary explosion brought down the building.

Reports of Hezbollah rockets firing upon towns in South Lebanon are increasing, and the mortar attack on the aid convoy on the weekend is now believed to have been Hezbollah sourced.

In the propaganda war, there is no doubt that Hezbollah are winning, with the help of western journalist eager for any story. Hence the cameras at Qana before any bodies were removed. At a recent mass funeral, there were more journalists invited by Hezbollah than dead. On Jim Lehr Newshour (SBS - 30/7) vision of an Israeli hospital coming under direct and deliberate rocket fire was shown. It's a pity that Australian Journalist don't report such attrocities.

Boaz, Narcissist and 2bob

some very good historical context, stretching back to the dark ages of May this year.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2928

Colin Anderson notes: "Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council (AIJAC), told them that Tehran was pulling the strings of Hezbollah, who were visiting “another 9-11” on Israel."

Rubbish. AIJAC are the propaganda arm of terrorist organsition, Israel military.

Another 9/1? Yes. A bunch of warmongers acting outside the tenants of Islam; just like Israel is a bunch of thugs acting outside the tenants of human decency.

Bush used 9/11 to give “legitimacy” to USA establishing a de-stabilising military presence in the Middle East.

Israel is doing likewise with Lebanon. Hezbollah's takes two soldiers prisoner and Israel unleashes a murderous retaliation that makes a mockery of even the barbaric "the eye for and eye" - not to mention Ch. 22, 38,39,40. Certain Christians ignore or rationalise away the Bible.

The suicide bomber is a recent phenomenon in Islamic history. Just like jet pilots using planes to kill civilians. This suggests that some Muslims believe to the extreme that they are against hopeless odds. That Islam is doomed.

Warmongering propaganda from factions within Islam that don't represent Islam and irresponsible actions like Israel's terrorist attack on Lebanon only exacerbate these feelings of hopelessness and fear.

The media have not made big of the reports that the 9/11 hijackers drank alcohol, forbidden in Islam, before boarding the doomed planes. Some are known to have frequented nightclubs which is unlike normal orthodox Islamic behaviour.

For Islamic fundamentalists night clubs are a symbol of jahilyyah which is the true faith’s enemy. Moreover, the Quran condemns all aggressive warfare and teaches that the only just war is a war of self defence.

Islamic law forbids Muslims to declare war against a country that allows them to practice their religion freely and strongly forbids them to kill innocent civilians. In other words Hezbollah are either thugs like the 9/11 mob or must feel genuinely aggrieved to the extreme.

9/11 was a flagrant and wicked abuse of religion. Bushes response was an opportunistic and unChristian sellout. Israel’s behaviour towards Lebanon is obscene. And Lebanon civilians are “flesh and blood" just like the folk in the two towers.

David Boaz and all who try to interpret theology through an English translation of a document in an ancient language - you can't.

All religions are created by theologians. Jewish teaching is that all good people can enter heaven and I have yet to meet one modern Jew who believes in heaven (a lot don't) and who does not expect to share it with others.

In the case of the middle east we unfortunately have a number of disfunctional nations where the difference in wealth between the rich and the poor is obscene and huge areas of poverty create a breeding ground for hatred. Schools such as the Madrasas which teach extreme ideologies and hatred of others do not exist in functional countries like Japan Taiwan India UK Australia USA etc.

As a result of this Muslims have been fighting everywhere - Iraq and Iran, Dafuur Lebanon Afghanistan. They are either fighting each other Shiites against Sunnis or Muslims against Christians or Jews. If Israel was not there they would still be fighting and Lebanon would still be a murderous mess.

Israel is trying to defend itself. Until the Islamic nations have sorted themselves out and Islam is no longer used an excuse to kill others any group in the middle east is in trouble.

I repeat that Egypt and Jordan eventually made peace with Israel and Israel does not attack either of them.

logic:

"madrasas"?

How do you explain the Israeli kids writing messages on artillery shells bound for places like Qana?

How do you explain the groupthink in evidence in your own and other posts on OLO?

rancitas

I agree totally with you that Islam is not the cause of the problem. Islam is a great faith which preserved Western civilization from barbarism. It has been perverted by hot heads and fanatics and presented as something which it is not.

However two corrections.

Eye for an eye is not considered by Jewish law to mean retribution. That view was an invention of mediaeval Christians to denegrate Judaism. Jewish law like Islam and Christianity forbids revenge. "Show mercy for vengeance is mine said the Lord". Check a Rabbinical website for a proper understanding of the ancient Hebrew text.

Israel is not in Lebanon for a payback for two soldiers. It is there because of thousands of missiles stored there have been fired on Israel for some time now and thousands more are on their way from despotic regimes.

Israel does not want to be destroyed and neither would any other nation in the same situation. Since the missiles are hidden amongst civilians what should Israel do?

Suggestions anyone? Marilyn Shephard, Strewth, what is it that you actually want? We don't want Jewish children killed any more than Arab children. Don't we?

Marilyn,

I think you make a good point that's overlooked by the media. The media buys the Israeli spin verbatim that it's Hezbollah's fault for endangering their civilians. Hezbollah fires rockets from civilian areas, hence Israel claims Lebanese civilians are legitimate targets.

But the same argument could easily be made of Israel. Every Israeli Jew (note: Israeli Arabs need not apply in this 'democracy') must serve in the military. Basically ALL Israeli Jews are reservists that can be called up in an emergency. Hence, practically every household in Israel has an automatic weapon in it. That is, unlike Lebanon where most people are civilians, all Israeli Jews are legitimate targets.

Strange how we don't hear that from the Israel First crowd.

Israel
Go home and stay home.
Get out of Lebanon and the West Bank now.

logic:

My previous two questions still stand.

"Thousands of missiles stored there [Lebanon] have been fired on Israel for some time now": "Thousands"? Document this. "For some time now": Tell us, chapter & verse, how many were fired BEFORE Israel began shelling and dropping bombs all over Lebanon and how many AFTER and in response to that Israeli shelling & bombing.

Also, how many Israeli shells and bombs (inc cluster & phosphorus) have fallen on Lebanon and Gaza? How many Israeli nukes lie in wait?

What do I want? For starters, I want the Israeli bully to be restrained from further abusing the Palestinian and Lebanese peoples. What do I want from you? An end to the self-deception and propaganda.

eet, I get your point, but you are a little incorrect.

Israeli Arabs may serve in the Israeli army, and do, some in units that are particularly 'sensitive'.

Arab Israelis are not liable for conscription, however. They, like the ultra right wing religious 'students' and their ilk are exempt from military service.

That the ultra-religious are exempt sticks in the craw of many Israelis by the way, in that these 'religious' are often the pompous ultra-Zionists who are not willing to actually get in and serve in miltary that does their bidding.

At least the ultra-islamics are willing to die for their own cause.

@CHRIS SHAW wow..that informative article telling us about an oil pipeline etc etc..... err mate.. get real here is a quote from the SAME article.

“At the moment (1947)only one pipeline EXISTS leading from Kirkuk in Iraq to Haifa.” (my emphasis)
So...’duh’ what in the world are those brain cells in your head actually doing ?

I wasn’t transformed, I just saw REALITY for crying out loud.. it mentions many countries all looking out for their interests. WHAT IS YOUR POINT ? yes..I’m shouting at you..sorry but your rediculous post deserves it... to WHOM are you pointing as the “Nation without blemish or spot” which does NOT look after its own interests ? yes..I DO want a reply, because if you can’t point to one, why the heck waste our time trying to get us all emotional over what EVerybody does ?
(You don’t ?)

EV..
and your point (re the quotes) was ? I recommend you do some study on the Old Testament and get back to us when you can do better than simply cut and paste the most salubrious quote which suits your purpose. Err what do you KNOW about those nations ? care to enligthen us on their socially progressive and ethical practices ? such as the burning of children to those idols which the Israelites destroyed ? Hmmm somehow I would want to sink my wood splitter into such idols if that is what they demanded from their worshippers. You have a problem with that ?

MANGO..
yes..I’m going to take a bite out of your backside over those ‘protocols’... mateeee.. if ur want credibility, please check your primary sources. I’ve seen them debunked in chapter and verse, not by Jews but by a Christian scholar who had done his homework. I mean.. LOOK at them, don’t you have even a tiny bit of suspicion that they ‘might’ have been composed for reasons given by 2BOB ? I challenge you.. LOOK UP THE REFERENCES and see if you can find them. I did. (look)
a) The books/references mentioned
b) The actual words quoted.

Boaz David& 2bob,
When I need to know if its raining , I look outside to see, I dont have to go outside to get wet, you both say the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" are false written by a anti/semetic, does it matter who wrote them down. what matters is, the Protocols do set out /discribe what is actually happening, I dond have to read books to know in is raining, it does say in the Protocols that the media must be controlled by the Zionists, now that is a fact, for instant those cartoons you supported many months ago, were published by 127 newspapers around the world why , the answer is in the Protocols and who owed those newspapers, I made an effort to find out because the countries where the newspapers were distributed were blamed, now if the real culprits were blamed you and your one eyed mates would be screaming, the question is why are there more than two hundred I sraeli nuclear missiles ready for launching, why do you support the demolition of the Holy Mosque in Jerusalem, now if you go to a site called " The Forum on the Middle East" you will find people who have been indoctrinated with the same kind of garbage that you find in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" the members of that Forum should be in your favorites list, I see with both eyes, it is a pity you cant, I feel sorry for you , because history proves governments who kill women and children out of hatred, do eventually pay the price, you need to think about the price that will have to be paid, before it is two late, now if your mates had looked after those humun beings they uprooted of their land, things might be different now, mangotree

No matter how the warmongers try to excuse Zionism, the fact is Israel has overreacted and, with continued support from USA, peace in the Middle East remains a dream.

Israel by, destroying the Beirut airport, blasting communications towers into oblivion and cleansing southern Lebanon of its civilian population, will only mean that the world will see an attack on innocents rather than on Hezbollah terrorists. The Israeli campaign is so intense and widespread that it is creating more terrorists than it kills.

And ultimately Israel will be less secure, and so will the rest of us.

Hezbollah started this with its rockets, but the unrestrained Israeli response threatens to make an iconic hero of Hezbollah leader, Hasan Nasrallah.

Bush’s Christian fundamentalists do not want a humanly constructed peace. The current willingness of the US to turn a blind eye to the wanton killing and suffering of innocent people in Lebanon will certainly fuel the rage of the Islamic extremists and lead to further acts of terror.

Mango
I won't dispute that there is a very serious level of Jewish influence and control of Media. (but Murdoch is not a Jew) That is a separate issue.
By saying it "doesn't matter" whether the protocals are true or not, is a very dodgy position to take mate. It DOES matter, because they were used to justify incredible persecution and mass slaughter..i.e. to 'massage' public opinion and dehumanize Jews.

I'm not 'one eyed' in the sense you mean. I can find as many 'anti Jewish' issues as the next man, but mine will be based on fact, not anti semitism. The classic example I often use is the collusion between the British Crown and the Jewish Sasoon family in the Opium trade. There was a network of Jews from that family spread all throughout China, systematically dehumanizing Chinese into Opium addicts. That is not "Judaism" nor "Jewish" behavior it is as much Italian,Russian,English.
Our Federal court membership is another concern. Can you imagine 6 of 12 Victorian FC Judges being Aboriginal and being unbiased in a Land Rights case ?

I am not in the business of supporting Israel uncritically.

I take Scouts point about the destruction of infrastructure prior to telling the civilians to 'get out'. Its a bit hard with no servicable roads. I would have done it in the reverse order.. Civvies OUT... then *CRUNCH* and the crunch would be 'final'.

A "Human" Solution.

1/ Civilians OUT (international aid to assist the elderly and infirm)
2/ Infrastructure DOWN
3/ Hezbollah destroyed.
4/ Civilians allowed back under sworn treaty of
a) "no involvement with or support for any anti Israel armed militia" (under pain of execution)
b) Guarantee of peace in perpetuity.
5/ Israeli withdrawal and Nato peace keeping force.

A "Christian" Solution

1/ Invite all parties to Faith in Christ
2/ They embrace Jesus as Saviour. (Muslims and Jews)
3/ There is nothing more to fight about. Land can be easily resolved now that 'Islamic Waqf' is no longer applicable. Lots of new homes in the Negev area (massive construction underway)

A realistic approach as opposed to the flights of fantasy dreamt up by BD

Hezbollah to move out of south Lebanon and the Lebanese army would move down to the border with Israel. The idea is that this would remove the source of conflict.

Both Israel and Hezbollah accept a ceasefire and the agreement formalised in a new Security Council resolution.

An international force would be deployed in the border area at least until the Lebanese army arrived.

The Israelis might maintain a self-declared "buffer zone" for a time, but any settlement would have to see an Israeli withdrawal.

Some kind of deal would be done to resolve the original trigger for this war; the capture of two Israeli solders by Hezbollah. Israel wants their unconditional release. Hezbollah says they were taken to be exchanged.

But we have to start somewhere.

For long term peace: A trade embargo on all Middle East countries until all M.E. leaders reach an agreement to cease terrorist activities and the fact, that both Palestine and Israel exist and, as such, have a right to survive.

And for western countries such as USA to develop practical energy sources thus eliminating the need for M.E. oil reserves.

I read the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" in the 70's. I was able to look at it quite deeply, leading to the Illuminati, great white brotherhood, Knights templar, Skull and bones, club of Rome and masonic lodge. An intricate web borne out by present world circumstances.

Its pleasing seeing those following god, exhibiting their true disposition, in their demand to be right. A protocol statement,

“Our right lies in force. The word "right" is an abstract thought and proved by nothing. The word means no more than: “Give me what I want in order that thereby I may have a proof that I am stronger than you. “

You see glaring examples of this empty headed fantasy from the rabid warmongers of boaz, 2 bob and their ilk. If their support for evil barbarity wasn't so deadly, you'd laugh at how gullible they are in being cannon fodder for the elite of the world. As they say, give a fool a lie and they'll go with it until their death, whilst the provider of the lie, feeds on the fruits of the lies results.

The biggest lie, is "god is love", fully borne out by monotheistic expression on this planet. The fools century after century support this lie with violence, to their detriment and many others. Those behind supporting the lie with more lies, gain generation after generation until they have their control. You see this in privatisation, globalisation, total control by less than ten companies. Oil, costs $6-$10 barrel to produce, sells for $75, reason, lies. Who controls the oil companies, Monsanto, haliburtion etc., zionists

In Iraq, the economic control is in the hands of zionist and christian controlled companies. The government's just an expendable side show whilst the real work of take over goes on. The same for Lebanon, this invasions been planned for years. only idiots wouldn't seen that. But if your understanding comes from theology, your easy fooled, as displayed by gods puppets on this forum.

What did John Howard say?

That there would be no peace in the Middle East until the Arabs excepted Israel.

Hmm, sounds like words of war to me.

The world is being run by idiots.

Mango,

A few years back when I was running The Aust. Satanic Council, a group of researchers looked into the "Protocols" and other works and it was clear that these were obviously fabricated. As a result they were not published in any council works. It would be unwise to rely on them.

Scout,

Despite a 48-Hour cease file (at least aerially), Hezbollah continued to launch rocket attacks. Isreal recommenced bombing. Hezbollah have no interest in the safety of any civilians on either side of the border. It is also unlikely that a prisoner exchange is viable. The two Israeli soldiers are more than likely dead, having been decapitated with a butter knife as is the Shia custom.

Israel was not secure before, that is the singularly most important point. They left Lebanon, they left Gaza. The rocket barrages and strikes increased, rather than decreasing. The moral of the story, whether Israel attempts to create peace is irrelevant, until her neighbours are ready to use dialogue, rather than rockets, there is no prospect of peace in the Middle East, and Israel must continue to fight, as running away is not an option.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283344,00.html

Peace can not be imposed unilaterally, especially when the enemy refuses to accept it.

Interestingly, one of the major sticking points in the negotiations has been Hizbollah's refusal to accept Sheba'a/Shaba farms (Ha'ar Dov) as it would then have no reason to exist.

It is also noticeable that many in Lebanon now blame Hizbollah for the violence, and for the 'massacres' which massacres appear to be Hizbollah's raison de etre:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284514,00.html

Hopefully at the end of this round of fighting, Lebanon will be emptied of Hizbollah & its supporters. Then, finally, it can rebuild in peace and safety.

Inshallah

2bob

2bob, you can't just 'rid' a country of a political movement (which is what hizbollah is in addition to being a terrorist group) by bombing the crap out of them. Most analysts have suggested that hizbollahs support has increased since the start of the latest hostilities.

Start thinking about the reality of the situation, do you think you could just rid this country of, for example, the Democrats? of course not, the ideas that group stands for must first become irrelevant (which they nearly have, hence their downfall)

If Israel continues to throw its weight around the ideas of hizbollah will continue to find resonance amongst the people in South Lebanon

Carl,

What ever happened to One Nation? Seems to me you can get rid of a political movement.

2Bob is stating what is glaringly obvious to anyone with any sense. Israel has been attacked and is defending itself. Hezbollah/Iran are using the Lebanese people as human shields. Hezbollah is also attacking the Lebanese people and blaming it on Isreal.

The problem is that Isreal is not very good at manipulating the world's media. Unlike America, it is failing to embed journalist with its troops and arguing its case with daily media briefings. Perhaps it is to protect Mosad agents in the field that it neglects sharing its intelligence. On the other hand, Hezbollah are playing the media. Still, despite Hezbollah's media savvy, huge holes appear in their propaganda war.

The battle for public opinion has already been fought. Hezbollah lost its legitimacy long ago, the Israeli government is rapidly losing theirs.

And yet more dogma from religious nuts. Contributors who cite bible passages to buttress their argument should be thumped on the head with it. Naively I believed it taught tolerance but there's none, because there is no real faith. Half-baked arguments in favour of continued violence for the sake of violence - how twisted is that? One day the killing will stop and the talking begin; most of the world is wondering, why not today?

In a war characterised by bad faith as much as bad politics there is no time for objectivity, no place for a dispassionate view. An excess of resolve but never a resolution. Few of us have suffered generations of trauma, urged towards extremism by the relentless agression of their neighbour, an enemy invariably portrayed as religious zealots. So why all the hate speech here?

Political and religious leaders are often aware of the nexus between faith and motivation, how it can be used towards good or bad ends. Australia is among a dwindling number of places where tolerance between faiths remains strong. We're not perfect but we're civil, and I think that's a good thing. But clearly there are those all too ready to stir the pot. This, from our resident preacher -

"...the founder of Islam, his being a murderer, torturer, adulterer, child molester, and war criminal...War comes from Hezbollah which comes from Islam, which comes from Mohammed who came from SATAN in my view...CURSED is any religion which opposes Israel (Gen 12:3)"

Enlightening, huh? I don't want a godless society. I just wish he'd pull his head in occasionally, because all you show here is his ugly side.

It amazes me no-one has pointed this out before, but there are plenty of places hate mail is accepted and O.L.O. isn't one of them. I can't stop anyone quoting the bible and posting incendiary rants, but I can certainly thump them on the head with it. I think we all should.

Strewth.

You ask me to explain the Israeli kids writing messages on artillery shells bound for places like Qana.

Well thats a bit difficult. After all these kids speak a language called Hebrew and that has its own unique alphabet. And although they were quite young the photo showed them writing in English. A foreign language with a totally different alphabet.

Another mystery. The clever Israeli rocket which bored a hole in the roof of an ambulence and exploded inside killing the ocupants but not even shattering the windows.

I thought long and hard about this. It must be that the Israelis are super intelligent.

Or ......... perhaps the photos are fake. But who would do a thing like that? And the press would not have such a bias against Israel that they would show false pictures.

No there is another explanation – God is on the side of the Israelites once more and is producing miracles to save them.

Now that is really something. And I thought I was a rationalist.

BOAZ_D comes out with, ".... but I would like to be Immigration Minister for Australia. I'd like some input on education also.... to bring some history into the syllabus. "

Well BOAZ_D can butt out of any idea of being involved with immigration but what of history? Well from what he parrots it seems he learns very little from history other than, to copy and repeat and return with more hate filled atrocities, which strikes me as the exact opposite reason to study history.

Well perhaps BOAZ_D can focus for a moment on this little piece of recent history and make some reasonable responses to the OLO forum.

1 "On June 9, Israeli gunboats opened fire on beach-goers in Gaza, killing eight, including most of an entire family. The lone survivor of the Ghalia family, 10-year-old Huda, screaming in existential agony as she rolls around on the bloodstained sand and pounds it with her little fists, is bound to go down in history as an emblematic image of the Palestinian struggle for statehood – and for the full humanity of an entire people." Please comment, BOAZ_D, on what type of mindset would purpetrate this heinous act knowing that for nearly 18 months the Palestinians in Gaza had been making no trouble for Israel? Exactly what was going through the minds of these "brave" Israeli soldiers to accurately target an innocent party of people, mainly children, on a beach?

2 Next, BOAZ_D, please explain the mindset of the State of Israel when it held a bogus investigation that produced a complete and outright denial suggesting that this evil act was a gigantic hoax to frame the IDF? It beggars belief that it is possible to dismiss the evidence provided and then to turn it around as some manufactured hoax. What type of sickos behave like this and remember this is the official word from the State of Israel, its leaders and representative of its people?

There is also a 3 and a 4 but no room this time.

logic, I'd suggest you need to try a little harder (or possibly use a little logic). You sarcastically ask if the press have "such a bias against Israel that they would show false pictures." A 10-second Google search turned up this article for me (published a week ago) http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291980307&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull . So, you think the photos are fake, but the Jerusalem Post says they're genuine?

Paranoia knows no bounds.

We have to realise the followers of gods only support is through lies, then they use lies to cover their lies. When you believe something is good, yet all its expression is evil, your living a lie. Consequently, you have to create more lies to support your fallibility. Trying to change those following god into responsible honest people, hasn't worked any time in history, why should you expect it to happen now.

Each faction is right, just ask them, but none of them are truthful. Its not even interesting to see the outcome of this god fuelled barbarity, just the horror of the mentally deficient trying to prove to each other, with increasing violence that they're right, no matter the cost.

Those so fervent in their support of this debauchery, show the depth of their cowardice. Its only the dregs of life who sit in the background screaming support for murder, or what they declare in their insanity, justified collateral damage. All Israel has achieved since it murdered its way into the ME, is war. Not peace, just constant war and no end in site. Israel spend 15 years in Lebanon and didn't get rid of hezbollah, so how can they do it in 4 weeks. Tney can't. they just want to clear the place out and continue with the only way of life they know, war.

Come one you great believers in god, why aren't you going to support your faith in person. All this mouthing of just shows how inadequate and cowardly you all are.

OK Johnj

But newspaper articles are not always correct.

Here is a Lebanese article blaming Hezbollah for the Qana atrocity. it is not complimantary to your side.

http://www.libanoscopie.com/fulldoc.asp?doccode=994&cat=2

It acuses Hezbollah of deliberately placing disabled children inside the building to gain international attention.

And what is your explanation for such young children writing in a foreign language in a foreign script?

And how do you explain the miracle of the ambulance?

David, sorry for the tardy reply. I have posted this more than once.

Here are the neocons in their own words:

"It won't be long when you will see Iraqi oil flowing to Haifa," Mr Netanyahu told a group of British investors in London. "It is just a matter of time until the pipeline is reconstituted and Iraqi oil will flow to the Mediterranean."

The 8" pipeline was closed during the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948 and has never been used since. Its rehabilitation would dramatically enhance regional economic co-operation after decades of war and mutual suspicion.

The National Infrastructure Ministry has recently conducted research indicating that construction of a 42-inch diameter pipeline between Kirkuk and Haifa would cost about $400,000 per kilometer. The old Mosul-Haifa pipeline was only 8 inches in diameter.

Oil pipelines are a highly vulnerable means of exporting oil, requiring a predictable long-term reliability of the countries through which they pass. Knowing this, the Israelis can only begin their technical assessment of the pipeline once they are convinced that the existing political barriers can be overcome. This requires new regimes in Baghdad and Damascus.

- there it all is again David. You must have missed it.

Cheers, Chris.

My side, logic? Funnily enough, I don't have a side. I am simply an ordinary Australian trying to make sense of lunatic events in the ME. My own presumption is that truth is the first casualty in war. Thus I try to examine the news with a critical eye.

Re the kids writing on shells at Kiryat Shmona. I can find no evidence of it being anything but a media stunt gone wrong. According to the Guardian http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/07/20/lies_damn_lies_and_war_pictures.html "some bloggers have wondered if the media was culpable for perhaps coaxing the children into writing on the missiles, though Goldman's related account suggests it was the parents who invited the children to write messages." If you've got any evidence that the photos are fake, then put up or shut up.

As for the ambulance hit by the Israelis, do you mean
this one http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34187
or this one http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/07/24/18290953.php
or these two? http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/EVOD-6S8JKX?OpenDocument

According to The Australian "at least 10 Lebanese ambulances bearing the emblem of the international red cross have instead become targets in Israeli air strikes that have killed more than a dozen civilian passengers being transported to hospitals" http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19915049-2703,00.html . I think you'll have to post a link as I have no idea which of these stories you are trying to discredit. Or are you trying to say that ALL the stories on ambulances being hit are made up?

Re Cana, having looked at your link I discovered that an un-named source made some vague allegations (I don't read French so maybe Google's translation was at fault). You'll have to do a little better than that.

Sorry logic, but your posts merely discredit the "side" you are supporting.

David, you questioned me regarding two quotes that I chose which are found almost directly prior to and following the Ten Commandments in the Book of Deuteronomy. You asked me what my point was and recommended that I research the Old Testament more. Perhaps I should, except that I pretty much grew tired of it. I was a Christian youth leader for years and read most of the Bible during that time. For the first 18 or so years of my life I was at church (various denominations) nearly every Sunday.

Forgive the personal nature of this but it's important. For years I taught and encouraged other people (mostly teenagers) to read and understand the Bible. For Christians the Old Testament is primarily studied to learn about 'Original Sin' (Adam and Eve) and hence the purpose of Christ dying on the cross, the relationship of their offspring with Yahweh (God), the use of the Israelites' exodus from Egypt (Moses, parting the Red Sea and all that) as a metaphor for salvation through Christ, as well as a number of other metaphors, and general teachings regarding philosophy, wisdom, etc. (eg. Book of Proverbs, Psalms, etc).

I've stood in congregations of 700+ people 'speaking in tongues', I've listened to preachers from quite popular groups like 'Campus Bible Study' discussing quite matter-of-factly that the planet is only 9,000 years old ('cos you can trace it back to Adam and Eve through the Bible), among numerous other absurdities. I have experienced first hand on many many occasions the way believers try to use every psychological technique in the book to not only convince themselves but also others that all that Scheissse is fair dinkum. And to attempt to chastise them if they 'turn away', like I did.

My greatest ever 'spiritual breakthough' was to realise that I had to think for myself. I am now a free man.

Boaz please how me some text in the Gospels where Jesus Christ supports war. Besides, Christ said to follow his example, not to become a religious nut.

Praise God! - I'm no longer a 'Christian'.

Colin, You didn't quite understand my San Francisco Chronicle article and you made two notable errors in your own. 1 - The Telegraph is not a Murdoch paper; 2 - The Palestinian textbook issue is far from a hoax.
Matthew Kalman, Jerusalem Correspondent

@Scout ... re your post all I can say is.......Its one of your best and most balanced to date..quite agree, “my work is done” :)

@ChrisShaw thanx Chris, I do appreciate the importance of oil in the greater global/international level of this drama playing out. The only points I’d make are..

1/ It’s in fact a reality which is common to all nations.
2/ It is only one, and not the primary dimension of the current conflict (my opinion)
3/ That pipeline will go through Jordan(?), and create income for them that they otherwise would not have. (I can’t see it going through Syria)

But even if the oil issue was the prime ingredient in all this, I again humbly raise the challenge to you, -can you show me any country which does not act with its own short and long term self interest at heart ?
Are you in fact hinting to some ‘better ideology’ which you desire us to catch on to ? Would that ideology be “Marxism”? I only ask that because the article which took you to ‘Nirvana’ was a Marxist one :)

@KEIRAN
The family on the beach. Ok.. if the Israelis did this, we have to ask the following questions.

1/ Did they attack in good faith (believing it to be a rocket launch team ?) If so, then it falls into the category of a tragedy of war which we can all grieve over.
2/ Did they deliberately target a ‘family’ for some kind of ‘sport’ ? I doubt that. So, it leaves us with point 1.

Further, tragic things do happen, like innocent passengers on a bus, blown to bits by heartless murdering bombers where there is absolutely no question or ambiguity about the culpable and willful intent. In terms of relative morality, this is far worse, but as I often say, a miss is as good as a mile when it comes to sin. If we miss the target by a millimeter or a mile, -we still miss.

We are all answerable to the Almighty.

Boaz David you go over the same old stories, trying to fill the gaping holes in the exuses you make in support of Israeli warmongers, there is only one reason for all the killing in the Middle East , it is that outragous lie, that has been told for thousands of years, even the God invented by religious fanatics has been used as a tool to support this lie,a manufactured truth that says God promised the Land of Palestine to the Jews, and that a Temple Has to be built for their invented God, if God created the Universe, then God can move to where ever he/she pleases, does not need to act like a greedy racist human being,
BD is unable to see the truth, he believes God sits on a Gold throne with a Gold crown on his head surrounded by servants, why has this God, to be seen to act like a greedy human religious fanatic full of hatred for non Jews, because that God was created in the image of its creator, maybe this God was called King Solomon,and maybe BD beleives God is a Jew, sorry mate God is not a Jew or a member of any God Club,
Fancy that Mel Gibson is arrested by a Policeman who said he was a Jew, so what did Mel really say, is it "payback time" for The Passion of Christ and the new movie about the holocaust, maybe we should check out The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for the answer, mangotree

For a better understanding of the Middle East, this true story told to me by an American Soldier who was in Afganistan, he said he was one of a group of soldiers who came on the scene of a bombed out cattle barn, he said, "There were several families sheltering from the cold most were young children, the barn became a target for a guided missile, 57 people were killed , arms and legs everywhere, he said he was shocked beyond belief, because as he moved through the peices of bodies, he found a peice of the bomb, on it were the words"God Bless America" he was later wounded by friendly fire, he took that piece of bomb back to his home, it hangs on the wall, a constant reminder of that day in Afganistan, he tells me everytime he hears anyone say "God Bless America" he feels sick in his stomach,
His story reminds me of Israel, they use God as a shield, they use God as a Agent to take over Palestine, and the White House supports them, 23 Israel passport holders in the White House. not one Palestinian passport holder, why? mangotree

Johnj,

I believe logic explained that the children did write on the shells, her argument regarding the faking of pictures was regarding the supposed strike on the ambulance, which bored a hole through the roof of it, but failed to break the windows.

I for one am happy to see that the poor children of Israel are able to write on the shells, after all they have (or had at that time) been targeted by Hizbollah intentionally for over a week, and had been living in bomb shelters for that period. Quite frankly this picture says to me that Israel will not break from the terrorism, similar to the 'business as usual' signs in London during the blitz (which is quite similar).

I for one would be very happy for you to explain how an ambulance could be targeted and hit by a rocket/shell/missile/etc, which apparently exploded inside it, without the overpressure from the explosion breaking any windows?

By the way have you seen this man:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284546,00.html

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/who-is-this-man.html

Also how, if Israel has destroyed all of the roads (the justification for the failure of civilians to leave) did the civilians leave yesterday?

Also, if Lebanon does not support Hizbollah, why do they support Hizbollah?

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1703362.htm

Finally, why do even the 'Doves' support the latest Israeli actions:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/25/AR2006072501387.html

Please, make an attempt to argue the points raised, don't simply assert something is said that was not said.

Inshallah

2bob

"Hezbollah hides among civilians so it's no wonder civilians get killed" goes the chorus.

So what kind of human being would still fire on them?

It appears no-one heard of such a thing as politics. FIND ANOTHER WAY!

They can't hear you Bennie - men hell bent on winning don't care about anything else - only being 'right' until death (fundamentalism). Of course they may be responsible for taking thousands of innocent children’s ('collateral') lives along the way - but this is the price of winning, this is the price of being 'proved' to be right. Once the killing starts - each side has ample 'facts' to keep proving they are justified in doing what they are doing. This is why states use agitators. States can then jackboot into the fray under the cover of 'defence against "terrorism".' Where there is wealth and natural resources, wealthy states are bound to be involved.

What amazes me, is that it is obvious who are the biggest terrorist organisations (peopled with the most devious, corrupt and evil minds). In any period in history, its always been the ones with the biggest bombs (most damaging weapons) - the ones who invest the most in killing machines - they are the biggest bullies and it's always only a matter of time before those who build up such armouries (under the veil of self-defence of course – as if they can really claim to only operate in self-defence – that’s a laugh – self-interest more like), begin to use their 'force' for their own gains. We all know what damage these people are capable of inflicting. Still, what’s a ‘few’ more children when “we are RIGHT!”

2bob, I'm more than happy to argue the toss. logic's first post said "Or ......... perhaps the photos are fake. But who would do a thing like that? And the press would not have such a bias against Israel that they would show false pictures." I can only presume that by quibling about the little girls in the photos writing in English (instead of Hebrew) he is suggesting they are fake. If that's not what he meant then I'd welcome a clarification.

Re the ambulance photo. Firstly, what about the other 9 ambulances attacked? Secondly, I don't watch TV and I really have no idea which photo you're talking about. As I said to logic, POST A LINK!!

Re the Qana photos. The Associated Press, Reuters and Agence France-Presse all stand by their photos. See here for example http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/08/01/ap2920008.html The blogger you linked to relied on photo time-stamps to make a case that the agencies conspired to fake the photos. The press agencies claim that the time-stamps relate to when the photos were posted. So who am I to believe? Is it a blogger who was thousands of kms away or the 3 big news agencies who were on the spot.....

I find the post on Yossi Beilin interesting, but he doesn't exactly strike me as a "dove", more a failed politician whose main claim to fame was his involvement in the Oslo Accords and the Geneva Accord. No question however that Israeli politicians are united in this campaign. My opinion is that this bandwagon is headed in exactly the wrong direction, but that is only my opinion. I am simply trying to understand.

I note that you believe "this picture says to me that Israel will not break from the terrorism". I agree with you that terrorism will not destroy Israel and will serve only to harden opinion there. But attacking Lebanon will not destroy Hesbollah and will serve only to harden anti-Israeli opinion.

Looking at the Israeli attack on Lebanon more from an ethical non biased point of view, we might say that while we do not get many reports from the Hezbulla concerning military action we get more than enough from the Israelies.

We might suggest that the Israeli reports might contain a lengthy literary prefix - to be explained in a sentence such as - “Despite the Lebanese people giving praise to the Hezbullah about their social work among the Lebanese, such as educational aid, medicare aid, as well as general help to the poor, the Hezbollah not only hate us Israelis, but because they are also not part of a national military force, they must be classed as terrorists.

Taking more a social scientific observation right now we might wonder whether over the years the Israelis could be blamed for the dissent just as much as the Arabs? Certainly Israel being allowed to go nuclear by the Americans and British, in military advantage has fortified them a hundred times over.

As well as nuclear, there is also the readiness to supply arms and equipment by America to the Israelies at a moment’s notice, as happened recently.

Part Two

There is also the factor of Israelis or Jews, though generally of high intelligence do drive a very hard bargain in business, and any generosity can be sometimes spoilt by a factor that any Australian woolgrower knows about.

The personal experience after WW2, when wool prices were rapidly rising was the lack of radios among farmers. In other words, wool growers then were not right up to prices that pretty well rose every day. The particular woolbuyer before the war had become particularly popular in the district, had even gifted the young wife and I with a wedding present when, both being in the military, were married in 1944.

It was in 1949 when we were both farming next to one another, that a neigbour soldier settler swore to me that he had been diddled by the former popular Jew woolbuyer, through the woolbuyer not disclosing quite a steep rise in the value of the product.

Now talking about the happening today one is told to forget about it, because it is allowed to be done in business. But it has left a bitter taste in one’s mouth to have a neighbour farmer friend done in like that just through not owning a radio - and naturally the saying got around the country pubs, to never trust a travelling country wool buyer

bushbred

I was once diddled by an Arab,

Does that mean that I am suspicious of Arabs ever since? Of course not that would be stupid.

Has it occured to you that Albert Einstein, Peter Sellers, Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Jesus Christ, Johann Strauss, Marilyn Monroe, Arthur Miller, Richard Rogers, Mark Spitz, Marc Chagal, Sir John Monash were all Jewish? Hardly your group of typical businessmen.

Part OneRe 77D

Logic, we already mentioned that the Jews are traditionally a highly intelligent people, but experience in the bush has shown that though woolbuyers do offer a bit extra above a current price, in earlier days they had not been known to carry a written notification of the actual going price. Certainly difficult in the bush at the time with poor communications, but unfortunately in this case as word got around, the former popular woolbuyer left the district with a stain on his character.

It must be mentioned also, in the immediate post-war years many Jewish men who had lost their families in German concentration camps, became busy as woolbuyers in our farming areas. Like those before them during pre-WW2, like all salesmen they had a way about them, the saying among farmers that though with them you had to keep your wits about you, there was also an admittance that they were sure to get on. And most of them have got on - finally investing and living in the wealthiest parts of Perth.

However, though there are still former wool buyers we like to say good-day to, after years of studying politics and the philosophies of history, and looking at Middle East problems more in a scientific light, one could agree with a letter writer in today’s West Australian newspaper.

The writer begins with - “ though it might sound sheer fantasy, but I can’t help wondering whether the world would not be a safer place had a strip of California been offered as home to the wandering Jews in 1948 instead of this so-called Holy Land.....”

During a philosophical debate in the Mandurah 3rd Age Group, almost the same question was asked, but more the suggestion that it would have been cheaper to offer every one of six million Israelies, one million dollars each to go and settle in the real now dinkum Promised Land, the US of A - rather than disturbing the Arabs and Iranians.

Part Two

The way it is in the Middle East today, anyone with half a brain can only see trouble ahead. It is so sad that the Israelis have the know-how not only to make deserts bloom, etc, as well as that ability to fit in with .......? Here we should print in big letters Western Society, but the Israelis are not surrounded by Western Society, nor Western Democracy, for as an Iranian women judge recently intimated, the Arabs and the Iranians have the ability to fashion their own democracies. and if it was not for Western penetration and injustice, they could be further ahead with them right now.

We could even suggest that if the Israelis do take the offer, that we will help the Middle East Islamics any way they want - without any need to take our advice. You never know, it might even work, just how it worked for Nelson Mandela in South Africa, and to a great extent for Mikhail Gorbachev in former Soviet Russia.

It is also so interesting that these two men are not so ultra-right wing, but more as Gorbachev still says social democrat. But whatever their thoughts and the way they went, they saved a collossal amount of human lives, mostly just by being a bit more softer and forgiving.

Wonder if also the Israelis could learn a bit from them as well as, too, the Arabs? But once again remember, it is the Arabs and Iranians who have a right to the bulk of the territory

bushbread

Sorry to take you to task again but of the six million Israelis almost half of them are from the Middles East. Everyone tries to avoid this fact even though I regularly mention it, but for many of them their ancestors were there during the Greek and Roman Empires, in Egypt, Babylon (Iraq) and even in Israel.

They were not displaced and scattered by the Roman Empire that only happened to the Jews around the Jerusalem region. They went to Israel as a result of ill treatment by the Arabs, leaving behind their houses. Are you seriously suggesting they should leave for California? Their numbers roughly equalled those of the displaced Palestinians.

These people have the same historical rights to live in the Middle East as any Palestinian.

So your approach Bushbread is that Israel should be attacked with some of the latest in Soviet weaponry, via Iran, because they are on the whole, more intelligent than the surrounding wombats?

I have been ripped off by Christians of all stripes, as well as chinese, philipinos, etc. By your 'logic' this should entitle me to recommend all of these groups be punished with impunity by armed militias?

I too have the good fortune to come from the bush, and one thing I know, and I suspect you do too, is that farmers will always have stories about being 'done' by somebody. Did your friend mention whether or not the wool buyer had a radio in their car? Would this radio have had the range to pick up a signal regarding the prices? hmm?

Alternatively, has anyone you know ever sought to mislead a wool or grain buyer regarding the quality of wool/grain? Noooo, not one, are you sure? I personally know plenty that have or do, do similar to buyers...

What made this memory stick in your psyche then? Was it the fact that the buyer in this case was jewish? Do you, or do you not, have similar stories for Greek buyers of fruit & veg, or whatever?

I am not picking on you, but I have noticed a predisposition amongst Australians to remember such events moreso where the person involved can be viewed as being non-anglo/celtic, but that is natural.

Inshallah

2bob

Johnj,

Alright then, where do you think the world is headed?

I will pass on my analysis.

Russia has provided advanced missiles, both anti-tank [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT-14_Kornet: Which missile they have & can knock out any tank in existence (inc.Merkava & Abrams): http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=964], surface-surface missiles [http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1095] & also surface to sea [China: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-802], to both Syria & Iran, the question is why?

Is it because they will form a crescent with the new Shia nation of Iraq, which not only provides control over a large proportion of the worlds oil, and thus provides export earnings for Russian weapons [http://www.russiamonitor.org/en/main.asp?menu_id=11_a_1338], but allows Russia to hold the remainder of the world to ransom, whilst also providing its long held ambition of safe, all year, naval bases on both the Mediterranean (requiring Syria to control Lebanon) & Indian oceans?

This alliance, would also involve a major & disturbing alteration in the balance of power in the region, which is already leading to a massive arms race in the middle eastern Arab nations [Saudi:http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?prod=71654&session=dae.22183260.1154717466.RNOXGsOa9dUAAF72Q@E&modele=jdc_1: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GJ06Ak01.html: http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/07/22/10054081.html: Egypt:http://www.tau.ac.il/jcss/haaretz150905.html].

Unfortunately, the US is overextended, and like the 1970's is currently missing an upgrade cycle [http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20060626/50041965.html]. Therefore, it appears that the new russian armed countries will enjoy both a qualitative and quantitative advantage.

What does that mean, well for starters it would mean a return to the 1950-80's cold war, although this time it would be much more fragile, with Egypt, Israel and Iran having nuclear weapons, also Pakistan & India, et al. This would be in my opinion a very dangerous, and particularly difficult time, as with access to both the med, and Indian oceans, russia could avoid containment.

What can be done, not a hell of a lot soon, however, the time bought by Israel at present is, in my opinion, vital.

I could be wrong,

Inshallah

2bob

I suppose 2bob, if all what you summise is true, people will have to talk and negotiate - in short become friends - cos nobody wants the alternative do they?

I'm ba----ack.... just been up to Sydney.

Humerous anecdote first. Front page of Daily Telegraph is flooded with 'HUGE SEX SCANDAL at GOULBOURN POLICE ACADEMY' the story is developed further in the next couple of pages. On page 7 or so, is a VERY costly advertisement (about 1/4 page) as follows:

"For a fulfilling and rewarding career with pride, join the NSW Police force"

So, its rather ironic.

Point ? "Things are not always what they seem".

Releveance ? Little, but, you could say it pays to know what is going on behind the public facade of any organization eh ?

Syria gets very CHEAP oil from Iran (hence the connection between Iranian Shia and Syrian Sunni/Socialist regimes). Iran calls the tune, and Syria dances to it. Perhaps the lyrics are "Hi Ho, hi ho, its off to Hezbollah you go" (referring to the lastest and most lethal anti tank guided missiles that of COURSE Hezbollah, representing the POORest segment of Lebanese society can afford to buy on top of their educational and health initiatives that are also so affordable from said poorest segment)

LETS GET REAL here... Iran (Via Syria) are seeking to control MIDDLE EAST OIL and strangle you and me, and our countries.

4 strings to twang.

1/ Mobilize the Shia of Iraq with weapons and support to eliminate the Sunni's
2/ Mobilize fund and supply the Shia of Lebanon against Israel
3/ Keep Syria under control with cheap oil.
4/ Rid Iraq of the US/coalition forces

OUTCOME

Most interesting...

a) Control of Iraq by proxy or directly via the Shia's.

b) Deprive the West of oil (or make it so expensive it 'Dimmifies' us)
c) Military/Economic Coalition with China (affordable oil) and Russia (access to hi tech arms) and.....
d) Destruction of Israel (by proxy)

Expand Islamo fascism world wide. (avoiding treading on Russian/Chinese toes)

And people wonder why Israel is reacting so heavily ?

P.S. why are the Iraqi Sunni's not demonstrating with cries of 'out with the occupiers' ?

Part One
Firstly, 2 bob regarding your comments about the Jew woolbuyers not having daily radio contact about rising prices, it was known that because they worked with major woolbrokers, they rang up their company early each morning from the local town about prices before they went out buying.

Anyway, appreciated your interesting comments. about a possible a future bi-polar scenario, with China and India possibly joining the ex-Soviets in a new global power balance.

So interesting because as mature-age social-science, students, we talked with the younger ones about such possibilities towards the end of the Cold War, and even wondered whether the US would be a fit nation to be unipolar global top-dog.

I guess you might say that one of the weaknesses in what we might call the Humanities sections of universities, is the encouragement to be cosmopolitan or not to take sides. It is then, of course, looking for weaknesses in both sides during university lectures, can cause reactions similar to the US student protests during the Vietnam War.

There is also now talk in Schools of Humanities that a power balance as mentioned in the above top paragraph, might be a better scenario for peace in the world than having one powerful nation arguing to have all the fire-power, including nuclear.

But, of course, this is now only a pipe-dream because we have so many nations besides the US, such as China, India, Pakistan, France and Britain, and as well of course Russia, which though having virtually surrendered causing the end of the Cold War, an important part of the deal was to retain her nuclear armanents.

Now we have still neglected to mention Israel’s nuclear capacity, which is said to include 200 hundred atomic-tipped rockets ready to go, which as well as building up more hatred generally from the Islamic world towards both Israel and the US, the most danger must come from the Iranians, especially if they get supplied with warheads from North Korea and even from Russia through one of her satellite states selling arms, hinted at on SBS Dateline the other night

Part Two

Finally, going back to the Schools of Humanities, you are probably not surprised that much of the blame goes to America for virtually destroying the United Nations, leaving her with her own right to carry out pre-emptive strikes. Britain and Australia unfortunately, have also been party to it

Now with Condoleeza Rice always talking about democracy, 2 Bob, why was America so determined to replace the libertinian people power of the United Nations with the personal power of the United States alone?

Also whatever your comments to the contrary, you must agree that it is the duty of all Schools of Humanities in our democratic Western world to also decry the US for backing Israel’s attack on Lebanon. And certainly to decry Hezbollah’s role also. However, you must also agree that the problem now in Lebanon is now a global problem, and that all global problems must be handled by a democratic institution rather than one powerful nation like America making its own rules.

A further local problem unfortunately, concerns so many of our Onliners calling people from the Schools of Humanities loony leftwingers or fruitcakes. The point is, the only other place these objectionable Onliners can procure their reasoning from, is from John Howard or Peter Costello who certainly by our pact with the US, would rather have the US as global watchdog than a democratic UN.

Therefore, despite not agreeing to the beliefs of our loony uni’ frutcakes, 2 Bob, you surely still must agree to help rebuild our United Nations into the edifice first designed by the philosopher Immanuel Kant during the Napoleonic Wars, which became the League of Nations, then redesigned with the help of Konrad Adenuear, when it became the United Nations. And so right now not only to leave it with its present ideal moniker, but to strongly revive it, and with people with good commonsense to run it, not those too much with a finger on the trigger.

2bob, I had a look at your links and must say I can't disagree. I can't disagree 'cos most just gave me an "Error 404" (ie file not found), so there's nothing much to disagree with. I guess you'll just have to update your bookmarks.

A quick search suggests to me that there's no certain proof that Kornets are being used in Lebanon. You ask why Russia would supply such weapons to Syria (who may have supplied them to Hizbullah)? The answer seems obvious to me: CASH. Given the parlous state of Russian finances, hard foreign currency would be ample reason. Likewise, the notion that the USA is falling behind in an arms race with Russia seems laughable to me.

To me, your whole argument seems rooted in the notion that Israel is a bulwark for the West against Islamic/Russian agression. It sounds awfully like the Domino Theory to me. There are, to be sure, some very complex political maneuvers going on. The prospect of Iran, Israel, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan etc with nuclear weapons is a scary one. I agree with you that oil is obviously a key issue underpinning much of the tension in the MidEast.

I don't have any answers to these problems. It seems to me that the USA doesn't either. Which, given their propensity to meddle in things they don't understand, makes for a very dangerous future.

BB,

I do agree that at present the world is mightily unbalanced by the current stance of the US, however, the weakening of the US by the anti-US alliances, has led us back into a disturbing place, where the next ten years will, contrary to popular opinion, may in fact be the most violent of recorded history. The confusing jumble of alliances, cross-alliances and pacts, between almost powers at the present time, has not been seen since 1910-14. The only serious hope I see, in order to avoid a catastrophic period in the near future, is to discover a viable, cheap alternative to oil, capable of massive volume production.

Could the UN stop this, short answer NO.

What has happened to the UN? Simple really, the Russians first misused the UN to prevent UN interference (by veto) in the invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. This led to its misuse by both sides in the years that followed. Finally, with the economic (not military as you point out, although Afghanistan?) collapse of the USSR in 1990-1, the veto was increasingly misused by America, as an unnecessary encumbrance on its power, although with the best of intentions, as the UN was increasingly incapable of making any commitment to act to prevent aggression, as it was originally intended to do (eg. Korea).

In fact, this is the final act from the peace & love generation, the final, unimagined effect of the anti-war protests. These protests prevented Australia making any attempt to interfere in the annexation of Timor by Indonesia, and also to prevent anybody attempting to interfere in the appalling situation in Burma/Myanmar, and even against the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. This is the period when the UN rendered itself irrelevant, the rest is just symptoms of the problem already in existence.

So it really is true, to declare peace IS to prepare for war?

To those who would scoff, please consider the fact that the dreaded word, ‘Conscription’ was used this week by several federal Parliamentarians.

Inshallah

2bob

bushbred

Re the wool buyers who worked with major wool brokers ringing up their company early each morning from the local town about prices before they went out buying. Of course they did - that was an essential part of their job. To buy anything without knowing the price is incompetence. And the farmers should have found out the prices before they sold.. That is plain and simple free market practice. Always the buyer tries to get the lowest price, the seller the highest. That happens every time you enter a shop. We are a free market society.

And what makes you think that they were Jewish? Wool buying is not a profession which is popular with Jewish people. Perhaps they had foreign accents. That would not have made them Jewish. I am sorry that farmers tales have made you anti Israel but I cannot see the connection between the two

You are asking rather foolish questions, Logic, or don't you know much about Australian bush history. This was also just after the end of WW2, with soldiers returning to their bush origins once again, with farms rundown as well as communications, even if their had been many private phones before the war. So the only way you could ring up was ride a horse ten or twelve miles into town.

And as regards whether the buyer was a Jew, just read my original post to find that the Jew woolbuyer in question had been a friend of the family before WW2, and had still kept buying in the district during the war. That was why we were so snocked that the returned soldier new farmer had it put over him like that.

Of course, we only had the neighbour's word for it. Also must say that our family had never been done in in a similar way. But must say even before WW2 there was common talk in the local pub, that when dealing with the Jew buyers you always needed your wits about you.

bushbred

When dealing with any buyer surely you would have to keep your wits about you. If the Jewish buyers working for bigger companies had better access to comunications than the farmers then surely the buyers who were not Jewish had the same advantage.

You have identified only one buyer as Jewish and then not with surety. You have also admitted that your family was not disadvantaged in this way. From here you go on to assume that all smart buyers were Jewish (based only on pub talk) and further assumed that all Jews are sharp at business (an old predjudice), and gone on from there to criticize Israel.

Wow! And the things some city people say about farmers.......