Oh, I see. When I use abusive language that is abuse, when Goldstein does it is a 'rhetorical phrase'.

He states that 'Recite the periodic table of the elements' is a 'pathetic excuse for a syllabus'. Well, yes, but I never said/implied any such thing. So Goldstein is playing the old game of setting up a coconut in order to knock it down. What I DID say was that a syllabus should 'ensure that the central ideas, contents, understandings and skills are clearly stated'. I stand by that statement unreservedly.

Then he claims that I said, 'Students get assignments'; however what I actually said was, 'ALL they get is one assignment after another'. Those two statements are not even vaguely the same. It is very naughty to fiddle a quotation in that way. Tut, tut.

A question: does Goldstein think that an assessment system based solely or even mainly on assignments (of unknown provenance) is fair to students from poorer backgrounds? I am certain that it isn't.

An existing allied problem in maths and physical science assessments faced by students from lower socio-economic backgrounds (and disproportionately males) is 'The level of nomenclature and sophisticated verbal reasoning skills that are required - even to understand what the problem is - is on average four times greater than what is required in Australian history and literature'. (Rowe, quoted in Parliamentary inquiry, 'Boys: getting it right. 2002).

That Inquiry recommended 'assessment procedures for maths and science must, as a first requirement, provide information about students' knowledge skills and achievement on the subject, and not be a de facto examination of students' English comprehension and espression'.

That we had, by 2002 reached such a deplorable state was/is entirely the result of ideas that had oozed from The Education Establishment. They should be ashamed, but are not. They continue to make things even worse.

Well, we've both enjoyed the haggle. Goldstein probably thinks I am an unreconstructed, rude Gradgrind. I think he is just another member of the all powerful Education Establishment. Neither of us will change - so I'm off to find other amusements.

The outcome based curriculum allows 'us teachers' to control what facts are taught, and what facts are not. We are often asked to cover fairly generalised aims, in the primary years, that apply to many different facts. At the high school level there are occasions where you can omit whole topics. When I was at university, it was obvious that they were not teaching us any facts either, but how to write up 'theme based' programs and lesson plans to make our job easier, as the pressure to produce more teachers for the 'big decline 'period was... paramount (sorry for all those 'P's!) You HAVE to know your facts as a teacher, and become a true PROFESSIONAL, committed to your own continual learning.

I have also noticed my colleagues often CONTROL a class by limiting their access to facts, and thus making their own job easier... sort of, ‘dumbing’ down their class. It also makes the teacher look smarter!

THIS IS NOT ALL TEACHERS and the other problem I've noticed is that good, honest, committed teachers get burnt out by all the 'issues' surrounding the job... not the teaching itself, that can be FANTASTIC AND FUN! But time restrictions, school activities - commercialised fundraising! Which are necessary to buy simple supplies in some schools...

TEACHING FACTS? There are lots of elements in a school... every school is different... every teacher, child, family, principal... person is different and has different needs. That was why 'outcomes based' learning was adopted. But from what I understand from studies, and my own experience... it does not GUARANTEE that facts are taught. Not when ONE PERSON is asked to use a GENERALISED CURRICULUM to teach SPECIFICS to UNIQUE INDIVIDUALS at the SAME TIME. It's the same as using an ORANGE to talk about ALL FRUIT to help future BOTANISTS, MECHANICS, TEACHERS and so on, LEARN ABOUT BANANAS! In MY opinion there is no guarantee everyone will understand the references, unless they ALREADY KNOW IT THROUGH PRIOR KNOWLEDGE!

Yeh Well The have to take the credit for something other than grabbing the money.

They mislead kids to think they need uni.
The kids who dont want to get a job anyway just say Oh I have to go and learn what i want to do.

We now have a country full of little smart arses that wont work dont know how and dont want to.
oh but they have plenty to say on politics because they learnt it at uni.

What chance do these kids have because they have never known any better.
Remember when you took any job or two to save to go to night classes.
Not these kids!
Its not their fault its ours!

"We now have a country full of little smart arses that wont work dont know how and dont want to.
oh but they have plenty to say on politics because they learnt it at uni."

Typical alarmist uni student bashing

Anyway critical thinking is all well and good but its not much use if you don't know the facts yet. I mean theres no point writing a marxist interpretation of a book if you don't understand marxism. Engineering is taught much better, you're not allowed to have an opinion until 4th year when you have learnt the basics of chemistry, physics and Engineering.

Education is a sucker for the latest theoretical fad. The best way to teach most things, in my humble opinion, is to drill it into your students. Once they know the basics, then they can have an opinion.

ACE

Not That its the Kids fault but the first thing they are taught just before they leave uni is how to apply for the dole.

Not how to look for work mind you.

I Know This Because we actually run a School.

So we made a point of also having a farm to take the kids to learn some practicle stuff as well.

Center link Staff travel Around explaining to them how to apply.

The Best way To learn anything is by practicle experience.

In Case you had not noticed we have very few people actually employing apprentices and training people anymore.

Everybody is off to uni to become educated on to how to apply for the dole.

Being A family that runs a private school we are very pro teaching.

However education must be a mix of practicle and theory.

My point was we worked hard all day paying our fees to attend night school.

I Dont know what typical bashing of uni means but I see plenty who attend uni rather than pick up a shovel and dig rather than drill their way to the top.

Some should try to get a little dirt on their hands and expereince the feeling of earning a honest days pay for an honest days work.

I am not speaking about the council workers leaning on their shovels in the dozens while one bloke picks a little dust away either.

I am talking about putting their backs into it to work hard to get ahead in life and pay night classes if they wish to further their education.

They dont teach that in many universitys now do they.

God Forbid anybody should ask a child of the uni to work as well!

Not Every person was meant to go to uni and its a fact many attend so they dont have to get a job and their mates are attending so lets stick together and hang out.[ Yeh cool Man why should we work]

We are running out of silver spoons to fit mouths.

ACE?

oh and Ace
If you look across the creek not far you will see thousands of people lined up begging to come to Australia to do the work thats out there while these kids attend uni becoming educated, so they can work for a bowl of rice one day.

Thats If they are lucky mind you.

How on earth are these kids going to ever pay off their hecks fees?

Most wont ever able to.

Clever isnt it Ace.

Go to uni and learn how to run yourself up into huge debt so you can go onto the dole and never be able to pay it back in most cases.

That means that these poor kids dont even get a chance to have a first home because they owe huge bills before life has even begun for them
There stuck then because they dont even have the basic skills to get a job as a plumber or electrian or a brickie because they were uni kids.

When kids go to uni they are not registerd as unemployed.
You guys have been had by the government to suite their personal polls regarding unemployment.

The figures are down all right because everybody bodys in uni[good one]
Then they chase the kids for the reast of their lives to pay back outragous fees they could not afford in the first place.

The simple fact is not all kids are smart and should leave school and go into jobs and training not uni.

GET SMART