The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > The traumatic birth of a nation > Comments

The traumatic birth of a nation : Comments

By Mark Byrne, published 8/6/2006

East Timor is a nation born out of mass trauma in need of Australian support.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. All
Congratulations, good to read a post that has credibility instead of some of the bigoted and racist ravings that unfortunattely appear on this forum. Thanks Mark
Posted by maracas, Thursday, 8 June 2006 9:56:29 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What nation? It is ridiculous to call a fly spot on the map with a population of a mere 925,000 - fewer than Adelaide's population - a nation.

It is quite clear that this "nation" cannot survive without huge input from other countries. It is already a failed state, thanks to its Marxist, ex-Fretlin terrorist leaders, and its uneducated, backward people who were far better of when they were looked after by Indonesia.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 8 June 2006 11:53:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I don't claim to have any expertise, and am unsure whether it's best to intervene or leave it to the Timorese to sort out.

I would appreciate some facts, rather than silly blanket statements such as "what nation?". I'm sure to many Indonesians, Australia is a spot on the map with a mere 21 million people. Population-based assessments of nationhood would destroy status for half the world's nation's.

As for - "It is quite clear that this "nation" cannot survive without huge input from other countries. It is already a failed state, thanks to its Marxist, ex-Fretlin terrorist leaders, and its uneducated, backward people who were far better of when they were looked after by Indonesia" -

East Timor is obviously a failed product of colonialism; Portuguese and Indonesian. Whether it is a failed is difficult to determine. They've already made what seem to be large mistakes. One being adopting Portuguese as the official language, which seems to have locked most Timorese, who don't speak Portuguese, out of politics and national administration. Another mistake seems to have been the appointment of exiles into the lead positions to build the nation; exiles that may have no idea what life is like for the majority of Timorese.

Describing the population as "backward" reeks of the colonialism that has stuffed the place up to begin with. Whether or not the country was better off under the Indonesians, the East Timorese have made the decision that they're better off without them, and they would probably know better than any armchair message-board poster.

This doesn't mean it's our job to intervene, but labelling those who fought for independence is a text-book example of ignorance from someone living in a spoiled nation that hasn't had to fight for anything.

All I ask is to learn more about your point of view. Please explain how East Timor was better off under Indonesain colonialism, and why such people are backward. Otherwise, you surrender the argument, if indeed there is one.
Posted by Gordo, Thursday, 8 June 2006 3:25:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ofcourse Indonesia under Suharto had done many killings at Eeast Timor as well as at other regions in Indonesia. But those were happened when Indonesian soldiers fighting the guerillas. But dont think US has a kind of tomahawk non-genocidal missiles that can choose military targets and keep civilian wedding parties safe.

About peace in East Timor. You westerners dont know us at all. And finally aussie soldiers bring guns to make the place into peace. Remember, dont let the soldiers shoot the gangs, thats a human right abuse.
Posted by Jelata, Thursday, 8 June 2006 5:18:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Gordo,
The 'exiles' were members of FRETILIN who were sent out of East Timor when the Indonesian invasion was imminent. They established an 'external mission' in Mozambique, another Portuguese colony which had achieved independence and supported the mission financially. The Mission purpose was to lobby the U.N. and keep the issue of East Timorese sovereignty alive around the world.
They returned to East Timor after the U.N. presence and were elected to Fretilin leadership and then Government in the ensuing elections with the exception of Horta who had resigned from Fretilin in 1980 but was appointed as Foreign Minister because of his experience whilst in Exile.
The 2000 Fretilin conference discussed the language issue at length and most parties agreed with Portuguese being one of the official languages because all official documents, titles were in Portuguese and they wished to maintain fraternal links with other ex colonies (Angola, Cape Verde, Guinea Bissau and Mozambique as well as Portugal who is the largest donor country to East Timor),
This was not to the exclusion of Tetum, Bahasa and English which are also used. Bahasa and Tetum are working languages in general use as is Mandarin Chinese and English. East Timor is well on the way to becoming a multilingual Country.
Posted by maracas, Thursday, 8 June 2006 5:22:20 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Despite how well disguised the jesuit's words are, the main cause of the suffering of the East Timorise has been the colonial imposition of catholicism on the poor ignorant people. To watch Bishop Belo perform the mass was to see a level of religous sado-masochistic evil beyond the immediate comprehension of the normal person. It is not something to argue about, but something to be seen.
Posted by citizen, Thursday, 8 June 2006 5:48:35 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Gordon,
You said, "East Timor is obviously a failed product of colonialism; Portuguese and Indonesian".

You may right but then East Timor actually has a chance to be not-so-failed if it did not suffer another colonializm from their superpower neighbour Australia. Oil, oh, oil. Democration for oil.
Posted by Jelata, Thursday, 8 June 2006 8:48:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Citizen, I think you should really explain what you're talking about. As far as I am aware the Catholic Church's role in Timor had been instrumental to essential welfare and social services to the Timorese people during occupation. Negotiations between the Church and the Indonesians during their retreat saved much the eastern areas of East Timor from destruction (note the towns of Lospalos and Baucau).

While social services performed by church groups are not necessarily ideal in advanced developed states, most times in underdeveloped states it is only groups like the catholic church that are motivated to perform that role or those services.

The history of colonialism and the recent devestation to Timor-Leste should bear some weight in understanding the nation's current obstacles. I'm unsure what your comment is hoping to achieve.
Posted by grv.campbell, Friday, 9 June 2006 4:24:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indeed East Timor is not a viable state, the recent collapse of that "country" is bound to happen sooner and later. East Timorese "leaders" proved to be nothing but incompetent buffoons who are incapable of running a tiny half-island with landmass smaller than Bahamas. Their "military" and "police" is nothing more but a rabble of armed gangsters who enjoy killing each other. Their half-civilised people are nothing more but a bunch of violent people whose hobby is engaging in primitive ethnic-warfare.

Quite pathetic, even the worst African countries like Somalia experienced stability and functioning govt for decades after independence. East Timor, receipient of much international aid, collapsed into a failed state within 4 years of self-rule. Now the fat clown Jose Ramos-Horta is begging for UN re-colonisation.

It is good that Indonesia expelled this hopeless half-island from our republic so we are no longer burdened with need to subsidise this worthless piece of real estate. We are better-off while they are clearly worse-off without our supervision. Every year after independence, lack of maintanence means East Timor's Indonesian-built road network are shrinking rapidly while neglect of education means illiteracy continue its upward march. Without Indonesian subsidies, East Timorese economy basically collapsed, making East Timorese much poorer, now they are the poorest people in the world.

Suharto is right, East Timor is Southeast Asian Haiti that require more advanced outside rulers just to stay afloat. I'm sure what happened last month will be repeated over-and-over again in East Timor in the future. By wanting independence, ET basically committed collective suicide
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Sunday, 11 June 2006 1:56:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
@grv.campbell:

Catholicism was imposed on East Timorese by Indonesia. By the end of Portuguese rule (1975), only one-third of East Timorese were Catholics since the Portuguese couldn't be bothered with spreading Catholicism in line with their absolute neglect of their East Timor colony. The rest were animists.

It was Indonesia who forced the population to adopt Catholicism as measure to counter godless communist ideology of Fretilin. It was Suharto who build the second-largest Jesus statue in the world, Christo Rei, in Dili. It was Suharto who build one of the largest cathedrals in SE Asia, Cathedral of Immaculate Conception, in Dili.

That is why impact of Catholicism in ET is very weak, with East Timorese mobs easily burning churches, killing priests and raping nuns. Now, Catholic Church is enemy of PM Mari Alkatiri, a communist who wants to abolish religious instruction from education system.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Sunday, 11 June 2006 2:06:05 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To see the skinny snivelling people kneeling down to kiss the ring of Bishop Belo is to get a glimpse of the way the richest most powerful religous institution has victimized the poor, ignorant and superstitious all over the world. The doctrine is hypocritical gibberish exploited by wierdly perverse people to give them power over the fearfully gullible. The church pays no taxes in East Timor and enforces large families. It is the one component of Portuguese colonialism that remains, and it is the most insidious because it enslaves the mind from childhood til death.
Posted by citizen, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 5:48:45 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy