JayTee,

You’re not addressing the argument. Sure you don’t have to, you can keep up the rhetoric and avoidance of the points I've made but the discerning reader can see through your tactics.

I repeat the incidence of schizophrenia is up a little according to some studies, down a little according to others and static in yet others.

Cannabis doesn't appear to effect the prevalence of 'hard core' schizophrenia but almost all schizophrenics get worse if they smoke dope
and for some strange unknown reasons schizophrenics gravitate towards cannabis use but it leads them to back to the clinic - so much for 'self medication'.

If you think cannabis may reduce schizophrenia i.e., is therapeutic you are wrong and avoiding a major point - schizophrenics and other people with psychoses get better when they stop using cannabis.

It has been the _relationship_ between schizophrenia and cannabis use that has lead researchers to look more closely at the neuro chemistry of cannabis and psychoses. This lead to a discovery that a component of cannabis a cannabidiol has some antipsychotic properties and the major psychoactive ingredient THC makes schizophrenia worse. If this research is 'hysteria' and not “objective” let's have more of it!

Perhaps it would be better for your cause (as you are having difficulty interpreting the thrust and results of current cannabis science) if you turned your attention towards studies that elucidate the effect on juveniles of the criminal justice system and the comparative inefficacy and costs of punitive laws vs harm prevention via education, responsible use guidelines and treatment for those who find cannabis a problem in their lives etc. What sort of message do you think that responsible use guidelines should contain?

Personally, I find the Pennington prescription in Drugs And Our Community Report Of The Premier’s Drug Advisory Council March 1996 (Victoria) a reasonable starting point.

But do you think that a decriminalization model is still prohibition and that there should be no controls or cannabis related laws at all?

--- Deus_Abscondis

No. You were the one avoiding my major points, trying to distract with cherry-picked details of suspect studies. Discerning readers can see through your attempts to inflict your tunnel vision on them.

I have shown evidence the incidence of schizophrenia is generally down, which again, you avoid and ignore.

---"If you think cannabis may reduce schizophrenia i.e., is therapeutic you are wrong"

LOL!! A couple of studies and you have closed the case on cannabis and schizophrenia. You probably closed the case on cannabis smoking and cancer too after you found a couple of studies that supported your prejudice. Never mind NO ONE has ever developed cancer from cannabis. Your agenda is showing.

These inconclusive schizophrenia studies would not even be news except for the fact that prohibitionists are using them to launch Reefer Madness again - which is likely the source of funding for the studies (and thus, their bias).

---"What sort of message do you think that responsible use guidelines should contain?"

No use by children. Adults should maintain balance with ALL recreational activities. Many marriages have been destroyed by a husband's golf obsession. I will concede the driving prohibition for now, simply to assuage the public's fear until they are allowed to obtain real knowledge of the nature of cannabis.

---"do you think that a decriminalization model is still prohibition?"

Of course. It prohibits the cultivation, sale and distribution. This is absurd if we are going to say it is okay to consume it - especially since it is less harmful than alcohol. "Decriminalization" is acceptable only as a STEP toward sanity.

Legalize and regulate cannabis like alcohol, even though it is much less harmful than alcohol. Again this is simply for the public's comfort level with change after being bombarded with lies and propaganda for decades. After the manufactured hysteria has subsided, a regulation system more tailored to the reality of the least harmful recreational substance can be fashioned.

In general, let adults determine what risks they will take. Prohibitionists want to make adults children of the government

Part 1

JayTee says:

-- "....cherry-picked details of suspect studies."

--"These inconclusive schizophrenia studies ...blah... prohibitionists are using them to launch ..blah... the source of funding for the studies (and thus, their bias)"

D_A: Well get busy pick your own peer reviewed journal studies or show HOW the studies are suspect. You can't or more likely can't be bothered. You fall back on conspiracy theories-the Government is out to get us dope smokers by funding anti-dope scientific research, sounds PARANOID to me, which is one effect that smoking cannabis has on some users some of the time.

What about this?: http://www.aic.gov.au/research/drugs/publications/cannabis/paper1.pdf

J_T: "I have shown evidence the incidence of schizophrenia is generally down, which again, you avoid and ignore"

D_A: Now you're not paying ATTENTION to what I said: Some studies have Schizophrenia down, up, or static.

So what? It's the psychotic effects in the general population outside the 'hard core' Schizophrenic users case that is the concern of a current line of research. These people won't get classified as Schizophrenics as their symptoms are less severe and mostly resolve once they stop using cannabis.
But you haven't addressed this. Nor can you provide your own peer reviewed journal studies that show cannabis use is good for schizophrenics or those with latent psychoses.

J_T: A couple of studies and you have closed the case on cannabis and schizophrenia

D_A: You can't even acknowledge let alone differentiate between schizophrenia and schizophreniform symptoms.
And as far as depression you think it's a myth! What sort of callous, heartless person are you to deny that people with depression have mythical symptoms?
I fear your going to get into alien abduction theories next.

J_T: ....cannabis smoking and cancer...NO ONE has ever developed cancer from cannabis...

D_A: Show me a respected and repeated longitudinal study (>25 yrs) of daily _cannabis only_ smokers say, n= >10,000, that supports your claim. I guess you claim that for some miraculous reason that the fact that cannabis smoke IS carcinogenic is of no consequence? 2+2=4? Look at how long it took to prove the tobacco causality.

Part 2

J_T: "No use by children"

D_A: Why not? You think it's 'therapeutic’. Stoned kids what's the problem? What about 21 and over?

J_T: Adults should maintain balance...blah blah

D_A: Why? What sort of "balance"? Daily, weekly, monthly, what quantity?

J_A: I will concede the driving prohibition for now, simply to assuage the public's fear until they are allowed to obtain real knowledge of the nature of cannabis.

D_A: How gracious of you. So you think driving stoned is good-duh! With this recent news it would seem the morals of dope smokers is no better than drunks. Have you seen this?

Ban is no deterrent to stoned drivers
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19025484.500.html

J_T: "Prohibitionists want to make adults children of the government"

D_A: When adults start acting as adults there less likely to be treated as children. The Easter Road toll a case in point. Why would we need road laws if people could look after their and others interests?

D_A: Do you think that a decriminalization model is still prohibition?

J_T: Of course. It prohibits the cultivation, sale and distribution blah blah..

D_A: So YOU DIDN'T, you know, R--E--A--D the fact that the Pennington model DOES allow personal cultivation. 5 Plants. And what about South Australia and ACT?

I know someone like you, also a cannabis advocate, who has given up on arguing the case, he uses a tactic called 'meme warfare' which is a variant on the old 'big lie', say it often enough and some people will believe you. Unless you can argue with current science and legal research and you are at risk of sounding like a crank which is hardly helpful for your case.

"Hard core schizophrenics," what makes them that way,tell me do?
Because I was given "Largactil," as a child & young adult, for "anxiety attacks," & "ramblings etc" I have been searching the whys! Been reading, and recommend you do also, "Mad In America," by Robert Whitaker,Perseus Publishing. I was shocked to read an essay from a "sisters-inside," speaker at their 2005 confrence, that they still forceibly drug women prisoners, & no doubt this practice will continue while the arrogant minister says, they misbehave, they must be controlled/punished. With legal drugs 100Xstronger than the lolly water just mentioned, 'Pot' diminishes to mint patties, in comparison.

Part One

--- Deus_Abscondis

---"pick your own peer reviewed journal studies"

Already did, of course. Here they are again.
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/index.HTM

---"or show HOW the studies are suspect.

Already did. I gave evidence that during the grand explosion of marijuana consumption over the last forty years, schizophrenia rates did not go up, but, on the contrary, went down.

---"conspiracy theories-the Government is out to get us dope smokers by funding anti-dope scientific research,"

No. I said their goal is to maintain prohibition, which is very profitable for politicians, bureaucrats and many industries, AND is a great population control tool.

---"sounds PARANOID to me,"

It's true. You're just bigoted, or in league with the persecutors.

---"which is one effect that smoking cannabis has on some users some of the time."

No. The fear comes from having a police state and neighbors with a grudge trying to put you in prison for an activity that harms no one.

---"What about this?"

What about it? Pretty large document. Better narrow what you want a response to down to a point or two.

---"Some studies have Schizophrenia down, up, or static.

The evidence I gave said the majority of studies showed shcizophrenia rates were down.

---"It's the psychotic effects in the general population outside the 'hard core' Schizophrenic users case that is the concern of a current line of research."

That's even more baloney than the schizophrenia nonsense.

---"you haven't addressed this."

I haven't addressed the moon being made of green cheese either.

---"Nor can you provide your own peer reviewed journal studies that show cannabis use is good for schizophrenics"

I never said it was. I said some schizophrenics self-medicate with cannabis. Evidently they get relief with it, or they wouldn't do it.

---"as far as depression you think it's a myth! (blah, blah) to deny that people with depression have mythical symptoms?"

I said cannabis causing depression is a myth. Don't put words in my mouth.

---"Show me a respected and repeated longitudinal study (>25 yrs) of daily _cannabis only_ smokers say, n= >10,000, that supports your claim."