Otokonoko, yes, the Crusades were war. A war that essentially the western religious authorities started. The other side didn't realise that they were at war until it hit them.

You should also remember that this was prior to the Treaty of Westphalia, in which the major European powers essentially mapped out how states should act with each other, including such 'niceities' as declarations of war. Remember the uproar because Japan was a few minutes late in delivering its Declaration of War in 1941?

The terrorists who planned and took part in the September 11 attacks, as well as the previous less successful attack on the WTC and the attack on the USS Cole, considered themselves to be 'at war'. As far as they were concerned a pawn of the Western powers, Israel, was occupying part of their Holy Land in Palestine. Jerusalem was no longer under Islamic control.

US and other Western forces had been stationed in Saudi Arabia, this being an offront to Islam in itself. The West was also seen as propping up one of the worst of the Islamic Regimes, that is the house of Saud, which also wanted US troops off its soil. Remember that Osama was a Saud who particularly resented US interference in his country's affairs. I am trying to be neutral here, simply describing the situation.

It is interesting that US forces moved to Qattar, and also into Iraq, hence guaranteeing a US presence in the Middle East, even if they could not stay in Saudi Arabia. Perhaps it could even be argued that this move out of Saudi Arabia has been a factor in the US not being the subject of further terrorism.

Summarising: yes, the Crusades were war, but to at least one side in the 'War on Terror' that war had started well and truly before the Sept 11 attacks.

I appreciate your point, Hamlet - and I didn't really express myself too well in saying mine. Basically, what I am saying is that the atrocities of the Crusades were accepted by society as a whole. A very small minority in society genuinely accepts the atrocities of the September 11 attacks. Certainly, by today's standards, the Crusades were a much more serious atrocity and would not be accepted. But the point of my post was that morality is determined by society. The Crusades were not immoral, but the September 11 attacks were.

I guess, if we are to determine morality on an individual level - that if YOU believe that what you are doing is right, it is - you could compare the two.

Otokonoko, I would like to be able to agree with you regarding morality and attrocities, but as a philospher whose name escapes me commented that the path of the enlightment project lead to the gates of Dachau.

The attrocities committed by the 'socialist' regime under Stalin, the holocaust of the Nazis and their collaborators, the actions of the French army in Algeria and Pol Pot's Long March all have happened within living memory. This list is not exhaustive. The genocidal conflict between the Hutus and the Tutsies immediately comes to mind.

More recently than the 1980s, the break up of Jugoslavia let loose the pent up forces of ethnic and religious hate that was just under the surface for about 45 years, leading to not dissimilar attrocities in the name of religion to those of the Crusades of 900 years before. How was, in terms of morality, the seige of Sarajevo really different to a medieval siege?

Unfortunately I cannot see that the human species has evolved in the last millenium to have a better sense and form of morality than it had previously. Some of the trappings of diplomacy have changed, but overall the nature of 'humanity' has remained the same

I THINK KEV SHOULD GO BACK AND HIT THE THE BOOKS- PEOPLE HAVE DIED FOR MANY NON- RELIGIOUS REASONS 'IN THE NAME OF AN ALMIGHTY' THE CHRISTIANS WERE KILLING THE JEWS CENTURIES BEFORE THE HITLER AND HIS NAZI'S.
THIS COMING FROM SOMEONE BOUGHT UP C/E AND THEN CHRISTIAN. NOW I HAVE NO RELIGION- HOWEVER I DO BELIEVE. THE BIBLE SAYS NO TRUE RELIGION WILL TAKE PART IN POLITICS OR WAR. SO THEREFORE THEY BOTH MUST BE SOMETHING/ ARE YOU SO SHORT SIGHTED, SO MENTALLY CHALLENGED THAT YOU CAN ONLY SEE WITH YOUR EYES WIDE SHUT??
N.N. QLD

There's no need to yell. It sounds like a crusade.