Pericles

I think you are just playing the devil's advocate here. In which case I believe a read of the link above will answer many of your questions.

R0bert

Re: DV thread - I didn't comment on your stats simply because the rows of numbers didn't make much sense. I would've appreciated a verbal analysis along with the numbers.

Regards

Thanks to RObert, meredith, BOAZ and Scout for answers to my question and for advancing the debate.

Now, about Pericles...

I am reluctant to assume that he has no brains whatever, but perhaps they are fully engaged in remembering his userid and password.

He seems obsessed by my surprise about "the lack of importance that most posters seem to accord to ethics training."

It's time we looked at the evidence.

Claus's article: "University graduates need... an understanding of ethics".

Responses prior to my first post:

* lovely Eric, but it won't happen...
* don't start with the undergrads...
* This is a nonsense crap article.
* A great idea - not that I think anyone will implement it...
* the idea that we can educate people into becoming ethical sounds nice but bound to fail
* it's a little too late... to start teaching ethics when they are 18...
* do we want people who can think?
* Yep, we need thinkers, not more lefty stinkers... I am shaking with fear and suspect a total Antitheist clash of ideologies.
* Good luck teaching sociology to nurses...
* People without hope are people who... descend into hedonism...
* How are all our poor undergrad[s]... going to get jobs... if they get all 'ethical...
* Many deep thinkers have been horribly evil.

If even one Pericle can find enthusiasm for Eric Claus's suggestion in these responses, then he can probably find bankable amounts of Australia's gold deposits in Peter Costello's back teeth.

Pericles actually reinforces my view in his first post, immediately after mine, "To believe that we have to teach ethics... is an admission of failure".

Not just lack of importance? No, "admission of failure".

Game. Set. Match.

Mike,

what i dislike is ethics is so so often pushed into legislation, typically the PC...

This is so unwelcome and unjust, other idealisms are just that, idealisms, ethics legislated into my personal freedom of choice reminds me of a kind non secular facism.

This problem arises from it being "taught" rather than naturally chosen or instinctive. Or

Some one who may hold a beleif that beer is evil for themselves or the whole of Sydney or even the World, cannot not enforce it it on others. They just don't do it themselves. Thats enough.

If you can bebothered can i point you to a solution I as an animal righter offered another overly idealistic animal righter on PETA. My method is totally unethical in approch but I beleive had the most practical and humane solutions for the Animals and people involved.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4040#28438

Welcome to the Punch and Judy show :) hmmm you would have to be as old as me to 'get' that.... I'm not sure which of Mike or Pericles is Punch and which is Judy. I'm reluctant to allocate 'Judy' to Pericles, as she is female, but Punch did the whacking, Judy was the victim.

Mike, Pericles does have a point. Scout also has a point. But for me, same old same old.. 'Need more of a reason that 'dad/mum' taught me' or "Dey learned me good in da Uni". I still maintain we need a source of 'desire' to do good/behave ethically apart from the awareness of potential legal or social consequences.

I tend to think 'Mum and Dad' would have drilled us with 'Don't do that or such and such will happen or so and so will be mad at you or our family will be humiliated' or some permutation of them.

Uni is probably more about 'There will be more lawyers over this than ants to honey if we go down this path and are busted'.

God, and our relationship with Him through Christ is...

"I am crucified with Christ, It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".

This is not to say those outside of Christ will be continually and culpably living debaucherous lives, but a little voice tells me that pretty much all of our law is in the same form as the 10 commandments, "Don't"...do such and such or x amount of penalty units will be cheerfully awarded by the Magistrate, for reasons of our predisposition to clash with them at some time or other. If not outwardly, at least inwardly.

I often wonder what goes on in the mind of a person with no Godly reference point, when they are confronted by a very attractive opportunity to 'make money' 'enjoy a hot but illicit sexual liason' 'get back at someone' etc.. do we ask ourselves "Is this right" ..or "can I get away with this"....?

I think I could be counted as someone who had some agreement with Klause’s argument – although my original couple of efforts to focus on the benefits of thinking deeply about complex matters didn’t seem to raise much interest.

I think that saying “teaching about ethics” rather than “teaching ethics” could clarify the argument. If we have the words and an understanding of the concepts, would not this further our thinking about our human condition - including ethics? Of course it won't necessarily make us any more ethical - but can you think of a better place to start?

Stan1 - Thanks, I think "teaching about ethics" is a helpful expression. The idea of thinking through issues to come up with the best way to live my life has been valuable to me, although perhaps not as valuable to others.

Pericles - Let me see if I can understand your arguments.
1. Many things can be learned after the age of 12, but ethics is not one of them.
2. Nothing about ethics can be learned that is superior to what was learned at "your Mother's knee"
3. Teaching "about ethics" at University is useless because:
a. It bores the fingernails off students
b. It wastes taxpayer dollars
c. It won't help anyone figure out "the right thing to do"
d. It allows useless philosopy professors to waste the time of students who could be learning more important things

Can I assume then, that you would prefer the assumed Business Council of Australia option of teaching more trade, business, accounting and finance courses at University instead of ethics, other philosophy subjects and other subjects that encourage the student to think for themselves about complex issues?

Boaz - For me I've found that I feel better doing what I consider to be "the right thing." Probably primarily with some utilitarian basis.

That may or may not indicate that I have some feelings regarding a divine being, but I am fairly certain it does not reflect anything about Christ rising from the dead.

Thanks for all your comments. This continues to be very good.