PTBI I'm not sure that Indo 'easily' defeated the various insurgencies attempted coups and extremist elements.. If I'm not wrong, when Soeharto took over, he did so in the wake of a significant number of Generals who were murdered by the Communists in an attempt to gain power. Hence the reaction against anyone with a slight tinge of red in their political heritage as Coyote mentions....I see the reaction as not only understandable, but neccessary, to stamp out this attempt to turn Indonesia into a godless marxist wasteland. Sadly, Im sure many innocents were the victim of grudge paybacks during that time.

Superior ? if you mean 'politically' so, re treatment of indigneous people.. well you may have a point.

Just like we need to learn more about Indonesia, you also need to learn a bit more about our own background. The 'stolen' children was not as straight forward as you declare. The taking of Aboriginal land was exactly as u say.

You yourself underline one of the primary reasons for the insurgency in West Papua "Transmigrants make up 50-60% of the population" if this had not happened, I doubt there would be many complaints. This is the very issue many of us are up in verbal arms about here. The influx of people of foreign culture can be devastating for the existing culture. There is no escaping this.

I also heard one prominent Chinese businessman claim "Up till the trouble, (mass attacks on chinese a few years ago) we controlled 90% of the economy, another few years and we would have had the LOT"

The more transmigrants, (I'm sure mostly Muslim) the more justification for 'serving their needs' with elaborate mosques and if Malaysia is anything to go by, the presence of just 1 or 2 muslims in an indigenous village is enough justification for the government to place a Surau (mini Mosque) in that village, seeking to change their identity. Then the appointment and employment of village leaders who accomodate such things... and so it goes on.

Pericles, well said. You will indeed learn much young Jedi :)

Viking, your accusation "lambasting us as Australians for the deaths of Aboriginals around 200 years ago", is philosophically fascinating.

Glossing over the fact that the "lambasting" was in response to your somewhat incontinent challenge that refers to "many thousands murdered, dispossessed and raped by a Hitlerian military", your excuse appears to be simply a matter of timing.

The early settlers' treatment of the native population was long ago, and the culpability diminishes over time... is that your argument?

So tell me, at what point does murder become simply history, and allows us to shrug our shoulders and "move on", as the psychologists advise us to do? Is it after i) one day ii) one week iii) one millennium?

Be prepared to justify your answer with examples. In fact, you can provide the exact date along with your justification, as in: "the Scots 'moved on' from the 1745 massacre at Culloden on 30th September 1904, because...", or "the Irish Catholics 'moved on' from the 1690 Battle of the Boyne on 12th January 2006 because..."

Throwing stones from within a vitreous structure is always fraught.

Boaz, you have a similarly cock-eyed view of history, but you are infinitely more subtle in presentating it.

>>The 'stolen' children was not as straight forward as you declare.<<

The hint here is that PTBI is being a little too sweeping in his claim that this is a shameful piece of Australian history. But you don't offer anything by way of mitigation, just a patronizing pat on the head... "you'll understand when you 'learn a bit more about our own background'"

Removing children from their parents in a systematic way is an appalling concept. The nearest parallel - and I know I am in the shadow of Godwin here - is the seduction of young children into the Nazi party in the '30s, where they were encouraged to betray their parents' ideology.

There is value in learning from history. There is no value in using it in the fashion of "my history can beat your history, so there".

Dear Pericles
Not cock eyed, but I don't think here is the place for a dissertation on the stolen generation saga. But.. you asked for mitigation, so here is a bit. Most of those taken were of mixed racial heritage, and this is the telling point. Your comment suggested that it was simply a wholesale removal of full blood aboriginals. It was considered that they would benefit from growing up in the 'white' side of their genetic make up... That consideration may in some cases have been misguided, in others not so, thats the problem. Policy seldom looks at 'case by case' it is aimed at the greater good for the greater number. Hindsight is always 20/20 as u know.

I'll resist the temptation to explore the injustice done to the Irish by Anglican Land grabbers from England :) or.. is that comment also also 'cock-eyed' ?

PTBI I hope you continue to point out our abysmal lack of progress in many areas. I'm sick of feeling '3rd world' at Tullamarine each time I return from 1st world Malaysia :) my my..

KLIA=> Superb State of the Art Airport + Fast train to city. au$10

TULLA => Crappy run down buildings, PAY for a damn trolly, overpriced car parks, noisy, smelly fumey 'courtesy' shuttles costing $50 to Melbourne. Or.. Taxi's... etc. not to mention the surreal chunks of stick protruding out of the ground on wierd angles as u approach Melb.. enough to put you off the rest ...bleerrgghh...

So Pericles, because we, as Australians, have a somewhat tarnished record of past relations with Aboriginals in our portfolio (bearing in mind that most Aboriginal deaths occured through disease, not warfare) we shouldn't comment on a real and present ethnic cleansing approaching gencide, right on our doorstep? What breathtaking (il)logic! Feel no need to comment on the millions murdered in Indonesia in quite recent times?

I really liked the observation Pericles made with looking at Australia through another's eyes.

I didn't interpret that to mean that Indonesia was 'better than' Australia. No country has much in the way of claim to moral superiority over another (just like people!).

I find PtbI's posts very arrogant and rude - but not without truth. Problem is some posters simply treat this forum as a pissing competition rather than engage in debate.

Indonesia certainly has problems - much more so than Australia given the size of its population. A few observations spring to mind - Pol Pot, Tamil Tigers, muslim persecution of christians and so on. However, it is also trying very hard to become a fair democracy - something Australia is losing sight of with the current Fed government.

There is nothing like having an outsider's perspective of our wide brown land.

I do find PtbI thoughts on Papauans offensive and derogatory - just like I find many other posters' thoughts on non-christians offensive and derogatory.

Maybe its time to have a good hard look at ourselves before judging Indonesia.

I could say 'let he who is innocent cast the first stone' - but what would be the point?

@viking:

Now your posts are degrading into emotional hateful bile that just underline your irrational hatred of Indonesia.

The truth is, the alleged "genocides" of Papuans and Timorese simply never happened. Those are separatist propaganda that have been allowed to spread freely without any challenge by Indonesian govt, so many foreigners mistake these allegations for the "truth".

The fact is, under Indonesian rule, the population of East Timor actually doubled from under 600,000 (Portuguese census) in 1974 to more than one million in 2000 (UN census). The same case with Papua, where native Papuan population nearly multiplied by five since integration with Indonesia in 1963. It is clear from these figures that not only no "genocide" could have possibly ever happened, but Indonesian health care greatly lowered infant mortality and boost both East Timorese and Papuan populations.

As for your stupid accusation of me "covering-up" attacks on Christians, if you bother to read my posts, you'll actually find that I advocated authoritarian rule in Indonesia in order to stop such kinds of attacks from happening, since the post-Suharto "freedom" has allowed violent religious fanatics to set-up shop in Indonesia.